The carrot on the stick

Unknown

After playing this game for about 3 months I have determined that it is fundamentally flawed and we are all suckers for playing it. The culprits? Scaling and boosting.

There is literally no reward for improving your roster and you are punished for increasing in level. I finally got enough covers in Elektra and Mystique to get past 94 this past week... and everyone says never to level past 94 until I have a big roster full of guys who can, because as soon as I enjoy the fruits of my labor (and I do mean labor... playing during work hours because it's the only way to rank well, even if it's not fun) the game gets arbitrarily harder to match me. There is no satisfaction in getting stronger characters when all I will ever face is equally stronger characters.

The gauntlet is a perfect example. Three levels, right? The first one should be a cakewalk for anyone with a few mid-level 2*s. The second should require guys in the 90 levels, and the third should require some ~140 level characters. Show me battles I could never win today, but could win if I got stronger, as incentive. And when I do get stronger, show me battles that I can fly through as a reward for actually getting stronger.

Instead, I found the first round very difficult with a full roster of 94s, and the first pins of the second round are destroying me. And I just know that if I had 50-level characters I'd be experiencing the exact same level of difficulty. So why did I play so much, work hard to gain covers and levels, when there is exactly zero benefit (or worse, I'm punished for having one or two characters higher than the rest) to doing so?

Give me opportunities to enjoy the things I've earned by playing, don't punish me for having them.

The one mode that is done correctly is the Deadpool Daily. At first I couldn't even compete in the first round. Now the final round is a challenge but I have yet to go a day without losing it, if I have the required character, and it's a great way to consistently gain a "reward", playing on my own time, when it's fun (read: not when I'd rather be doing something else). All your events should be set up like this. The gauntlet would be perfect without scaling and boosting, even with the required 2/3/4 characters, I'd have much more fun with it.

Sad that I came to this realization after my first really successful round with a top 10 alliance. It's definitely making me question the point of actually trying for anything in this game, since there is no actual progression possible once you get past the initial story mode.

Is there any justifiable reason to level any character? I'm thinking of starting fresh with a new game and never going past level 70 with anybody... or more likely just quit altogether.

Oh, and having the scaling be based on the levels of the characters after boosting is a kick in the pants as well. If you are going to boost characters, let them be freebies, because otherwise you are guaranteed to only have the boosted characters be of any use and the rest are just sitting there wishing they could compete. One thing I loved about this game at first was that I could choose my team strategically based on their power sets and who I was facing. It's a great counter-power kind of game when you can do that. Now at the beginning of the 2nd round of the gauntlet I only have 4 characters (all boosted) who can reasonably fight the enemies I'm given without being a crazy challenge. This whole roster of guys is basically just there in case they get boosted one week.

tl;dr: Remove scaling and boosting so that our character levels actually matter and bigger rosters are a boon, and then create events that allow players of all levels to reach awards appropriate to their levels. Is that really so hard?

Pylgrim

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

After playing this game for about 3 months I have determined that it is fundamentally flawed and we are all suckers for playing it. The culprits? Scaling and boosting.

There is literally no reward for improving your roster and you are punished for increasing in level. I finally got enough covers in Elektra and Mystique to get past 94 this past week... and everyone says never to level past 94 until I have a big roster full of guys who can, because as soon as I enjoy the fruits of my labor (and I do mean labor... playing during work hours because it's the only way to rank well, even if it's not fun) the game gets arbitrarily harder to match me. There is no satisfaction in getting stronger characters when all I will ever face is equally stronger characters.

That "everyone" I bolded up there? Stands for "everyone who doesn't have a clue about what they are talking about and keep spreading a noxious myth affirmed by confirmation bias and their echoed voices on others who parrot their statements without empirical evidence". Like you are doing right now. If you had a 200 level character at the expense of the rest of your roster languishing under level 90, then yes, you may notice some disproportionate scaling. But if you have a full squad of 2* 94 characters you have nothing to fear by levelling up your 3*s above level 94, as long as you distribute your iso well and make sure that your highest levelled characters are those offering you the most bang for your buck. Your scaling will go up in a negligible fashion but your more powerful characters will give you more options and power to deal with it.

The gauntlet is a perfect example. Three levels, right? The first one should be a cakewalk for anyone with a few mid-level 2*s. The second should require guys in the 90 levels, and the third should require some ~140 level characters. Show me battles I could never win today, but could win if I got stronger, as incentive. And when I do get stronger, show me battles that I can fly through as a reward for actually getting stronger.

Instead, I found the first round very difficult with a full roster of 94s, and the first pins of the second round are destroying me. And I just know that if I had 50-level characters I'd be experiencing the exact same level of difficulty.

This is demonstrably false. I rocked the first two stages of the gauntlet with my team of mostly 140-166 characters. I didn't even use the buffed characters most of the time. Only by the third stage I am having trouble in some nodes, but I am positive that I will finish it. If you had level 50 characters, I assure you that you'd be pressed to finish even the first stage. There's some scaling in the gauntlet, but it definitely is not designed to be finished with people with 2* teams; you got to improve your guys.

The one mode that is done correctly is the Deadpool Daily. At first I couldn't even compete in the first round. Now the final round is a challenge but I have yet to go a day without losing it, if I have the required character, and it's a great way to consistently gain a "reward", playing on my own time, when it's fun (read: not when I'd rather be doing something else). All your events should be set up like this. The gauntlet would be perfect without scaling and boosting, even with the required 2/3/4 characters, I'd have much more fun with it.

Note that you are admitting that you are a mostly casual player, which is perfectly fine. However, if the game catered to your playstyle, what would the more competitive people or those who cherish a challenge do?

Oh, and having the scaling be based on the levels of the characters after boosting is a kick in the pants as well. If you are going to boost characters, let them be freebies, because otherwise you are guaranteed to only have the boosted characters be of any use and the rest are just sitting there wishing they could compete. One thing I loved about this game at first was that I could choose my team strategically based on their power sets and who I was facing. It's a great counter-power kind of game when you can do that. Now at the beginning of the 2nd round of the gauntlet I only have 4 characters (all boosted) who can reasonably fight the enemies I'm given without being a crazy challenge. This whole roster of guys is basically just there in case they get boosted one week.

Strategic teams are still relevant. You may think that facing level 150 guys with level 94 heroes is impossible but if you have a good team composition and a good strategy (and a bit of luck), it can be done. I've heard stories of people taking down 395 level enemies with a 140/94/94 team.

tl;dr: don't believe random myths spouted around and cripple your own progression or just give up without trying. If something is not working for you, either try a different approach or work towards getting to the point where it works.

Unknown

I'm interested in further discussion, but since I don't have the time to continue responding in detail right now, could you take a look at your game and tell me what level the last match in the first round is, and the second match in the second round is?

For me it's Elektra 112, Cap 113, Vision 113; and Wolvie 106, Control 107, Thor 107.

Thanks!

ShadowX1984

"If you had a 200 level character at the expense of the rest of your roster languishing under level 90, then yes, you may notice some disproportionate scaling. But if you have a full squad of 2* 94 characters you have nothing to fear by levelling up your 3*s above level 94, as long as you distribute your iso well and make sure that your highest levelled characters are those offering you the most bang for your buck. Your scaling will go up in a negligible fashion but your more powerful characters will give you more options and power to deal with it."

I agree with this. I have moved a group of ~10 characters past 94 all together (which is a lot easier to do now with the cheaper level-ups; gets really expensive at 120). In PVE I make sure to use my level 94 2*s as long as possible in the first nodes, then use the unbuffed ~110-120 3*s, and then only use the buffed characters when I can't win with either of those two sets. My scaling increase has been basically negligible, and I have a lot of fun playing with a big roster. The progression is not in getting farther in the PVEs, but having a lot more playable options in how I approach matches.

Malcrof

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm interested in further discussion, but since I don't have the time to continue responding in detail right now, could you take a look at your game and tell me what level the last match in the first round is, and the second match in the second round is?

For me it's Elektra 112, Cap 113, Vision 113; and Wolvie 106, Control 107, Thor 107.

Thanks!

Same levels on them for me, and my roster has 2 154's and about 20 @ 120-127.

So this invalidates quite a bit. They did not scale any harder for me then they did for you.. so leveling your roster helps a great deal, as i walked over that node with nary a scratch.

Unknown

That's interesting, because an alliance member of mine had that node at about 20 levels higher. I wonder why some are scaled differently and some are not...

Unknown

The gauntlet is not the node to be complaining about. You are not supposed to beat most of the nodes if you don't have a REALLY deep roster. It is meant for the vets to get a 4* and some clean up 3*'s they may be missing. If you are running a 2* roster you are meant to get torch. As someone told me in the Gauntlet thread, you have to be patient. It is meant to be ridiculously hard. Put the game down come back later and try again.

Malcrof

traedoril wrote:

The gauntlet is not the node to be complaining about. You are not supposed to beat most of the nodes if you don't have a REALLY deep roster. It is meant for the vets to get a 4* and some clean up 3*'s they may be missing. If you are running a 2* roster you are meant to get torch. As someone told me in the Gauntlet thread, you have to be patient. It is meant to be ridiculously hard. Put the game down come back later and try again.

^ this.

This is my 2nd gauntlet run.. last time, i wanted that blade green so bad, but i had to realize, it was just not something i could attain.. as i struggled to even get anything beat in the 3rd node.

This time around, i am on sim 24, with no losses along the way, and completing all essentials. Just got my 2nd event token (both golds btw, IM40 meh, but needed, and (HOORAY!)

Going at a slower pace, yes i am eating up a health pack or 2 a match, but this time, i actually have a chance at going somewhere in the 3rd node.

Next time it comes, i will finish it (i hope).

This is progression. If this is your first gauntlet, chances are you are where i was first time.. solid 94 line-up, a couple 3* with some covers, but nothing game changing.


it gets better, it is worth the wait, we have all been there. This is the test of strength. Each time it comes around you will go further, get more rewards etc..

In the mean time, keep doing DDQ, level some 3*'s, play around in the Shield Sim with some new teams..

Unknown

I do agree the scaling does kind of make leveling characters feel more like a step sideways instead of forwards

Malcrof

mango_sentinel wrote:

I do agree the scaling does kind of make leveling characters feel more like a step sideways instead of forwards

I learned this the hard way, bringing 2 up to 140+ with noone else over 94..takes a bit to recover from, but now, my roster is getting more solid by the day.

I have earned a good 6l+ iso from the first 1/2 of the gauntlet so far.. and i plan on going back and re-doing early boards to get all rewards from the nodes i can.. this thing is an iso farm!

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

mango_sentinel wrote:

I do agree the scaling does kind of make leveling characters feel more like a step sideways instead of forwards

I learned this the hard way, bringing 2 up to 140+ with noone else over 94..takes a bit to recover from, but now, my roster is getting more solid by the day.

I have earned a good 6l+ iso from the first 1/2 of the gauntlet so far.. and i plan on going back and re-doing early boards to get all rewards from the nodes i can.. this thing is an iso farm!

Maybe I'm just approaching this with tunnel vision but if leveling my characters makes the enemy scale accordingly will it ever get easier so to speak?

Do you ever get that sense of accomplishment like damn I am max leveled now I can beat foes easier than before?
Or is it more like damn I am max leveled now I'm facing level 395 enemies and still using just as much health packs and taking just as long as before?

I'm not saying I wanna 1 hit kill everyone (yes i am) but I am just wondering is there a noticeable difference going from 94 thor to 166 thor outside of pvp matches with lesser leveled teams?

Malcrof

mango_sentinel wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

mango_sentinel wrote:

I do agree the scaling does kind of make leveling characters feel more like a step sideways instead of forwards

I learned this the hard way, bringing 2 up to 140+ with noone else over 94..takes a bit to recover from, but now, my roster is getting more solid by the day.

I have earned a good 6l+ iso from the first 1/2 of the gauntlet so far.. and i plan on going back and re-doing early boards to get all rewards from the nodes i can.. this thing is an iso farm!

Maybe I'm just approaching this with tunnel vision but if leveling my characters makes the enemy scale accordingly will it ever get easier so to speak?

Do you ever get that sense of accomplishment like damn I am max leveled now I can beat foes easier than before?
Or is it more like damn I am max leveled now I'm facing level 395 enemies and still using just as much health packs and taking just as long as before?

I'm not saying I wanna 1 hit kill everyone (yes i am) but I am just wondering is there a noticeable difference going from 94 thor to 166 thor outside of pvp matches with lesser leveled teams?

As i am finding out, the scaling in the guantlet is minimal, so not a good way to guage..

overall though, yes the fights get harder in PVE, but not so much that you do not want to level. If you were to bring 10 characters to 120, from having max 94's, as long as they were decently covered.. you wouldn't notice the scaling, and it would be much much easier.

i can attest to this.. the last 2 PVE's were my first 2 top 10 finishes .. when i had just the 2 level 140+, i was hard pressed to get top 150, now that my roster is balancing out, and i have some depth, even though not a single 166 yet, i am finding things to be much easier.

I hit the token in Top Gun with 2 health packs left in one sitting today.. first time ever. Usually i eat up my health packs and have to wait to get to it on a 2nd or 3rd try.

So yes, leveling them does make things easier... just don't do it all at once.. level evenly and you will reap the rewards

simonsez

mango_sentinel wrote:

Maybe I'm just approaching this with tunnel vision but if leveling my characters makes the enemy scale accordingly will it ever get easier so to speak?

It only gets easier if there's an OP character or a broken combo, but then the nerf herders will whine and stomp their feet until the devs bring out the nerf bat, and then we all become as miserable as they are.

simonsez

traedoril wrote:

The gauntlet is not the node to be complaining about

Oh, just watch me. Let's take the node with hood, loki and dp, for example. Conventional wisdom might dictate that blade, fist, daken is the best approach to take on that one. So why is it one person's opponents are lv292, another is lv315, and mine are lv340??? We all have the exact same blade, fist and daken. Why is this node penalizing me because 3 months ago I abused the hell out of GT's pre-nerf stun? It's completely nonsensical.

TxMoose

I'm no expert but I think the gauntlet is a poor example for scaling because while there is some small variations in scaling, there is not the large differences that normal pve events see. only the best rosters are expected to complete or compete towards the end. my roster is a jacked up one that everyone says not to do now. I have Lthor at 166, loki at 142, grocket at 120 and ~19 others at ~104/102. Feel free to check out my roster below. Everyone says that is a bad strategy now but some used to say that was the way to go. Personally, I think its a sweet spot because while I can still compete in pve (regularly t50 and when I really wanted daken, I managed t10) and can compete in pvp (can reach 700s and t25 if I hop a little - did it twice last season). So it works for me for now, mainly because my one top guy is a TOP guy. so, the only nodes I really struggle with are the last couple of hard scaled pve nodes on the last 1-2 clears when everything is going up. the rest of the time I'm able to muddle my way through.

just to let you know how I'm doing in gauntlet - completed the first 2 subs in the first day and a half and plan on casually throwing a match in here and there going forward in the 3rd set. if I make it to deadpool, great. if not, no biggie. if it was red or purple I'd be playing much harder but black is his worst color and I already have extra that i'll be respeccing when I get the right covers. additionally, blue is bp's worst color (who decides these?). I doubt I finish but we'll see how much I can get in during the weekend - will be driving most of sunday so playing is gonna be sparse and ddq is priority. if I have an outside shot at finishing I might hit it hard next week, but I'm not that worried about it.

I will say that a combination of stumbling through my first 2 gauntlets (this is my 3rd) and when big enchilada started, that really taught me a lot about the game and how levels don't necessarily matter if you have the right strategy for the opponent group. I would encourage you to hang in there and just keep trying stuff - and if they get a cascade, expect to lose, but try and figure out if you can pull it out. I've completed multiple nodes with one guy left with a few hundred health. we're only a day and a half into the thing. keep trying stuff and you'll find your 94s can take on 140s/150s, but you have to use them right and not get a bad board.

Pylgrim

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm interested in further discussion, but since I don't have the time to continue responding in detail right now, could you take a look at your game and tell me what level the last match in the first round is, and the second match in the second round is?

For me it's Elektra 112, Cap 113, Vision 113; and Wolvie 106, Control 107, Thor 107.

Thanks!

My roster has one level 200 guy, 10 level 166 and most other 3* and 4* are somewhere above 120. My enemies in the last match of the first round were level 155. The ones in the second of the second round were 165. Seems like a big jump but take in account that you, with characters at level 94, are playing against guys 19 levels above your average, while I'm battling enemies 11 levels below the average of mine. Also, as simonsez above me hints, most of my scaling is due winning tons without taking much damage (by using Patch + Daken a lot) and not because my roster's level.

Unknown

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm interested in further discussion, but since I don't have the time to continue responding in detail right now, could you take a look at your game and tell me what level the last match in the first round is, and the second match in the second round is?

For me it's Elektra 112, Cap 113, Vision 113; and Wolvie 106, Control 107, Thor 107.

Thanks!

Mine are 175-175-175 on Sim14 and 186-186-185 on Sim16. The bulk of my roster is level 140 or level 120

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

traedoril wrote:

The gauntlet is not the node to be complaining about

Oh, just watch me. Let's take the node with hood, loki and dp, for example. Conventional wisdom might dictate that blade, fist, daken is the best approach to take on that one. So why is it one person's opponents are lv292, another is lv315, and mine are lv340??? We all have the exact same blade, fist and daken. Why is this node penalizing me because 3 months ago I abused the hell out of GT's pre-nerf stun? It's completely nonsensical.

That quote was directly meant in regards to in general scaling; however, yes it is INSANE that once you get a couple 4*'s near max **** hits the proverbial fan. For that node I used Cage/Fist/SW and saved up 10 purp then blew up the team

Unknown

On gauntlet easy stage, my 9th match is 118/119/119.

That's the first stage, with a transition roster with a few 166 heroes. I haven't even got to the end of this stage, and all my health packs are gone, so my roster is useless, as the lower stuff, like the 94's are getting beat easily every time. Sure, no luck is coming my way with cascades, but this is ridiculous. Getting through the second stage? Doubtful.

TxMoose

for comparison purposes - have 166thor/142loki/120grocket + 19 or so at 104/102.
last node of 1st set - sim15 = 112/113
2nd sub node levels
sim 15 = 151 (goons)
16 = 143/144
17 = 155
18 = 155
19 = 159
20 = 159
21 = 181/182
22 = 185/186
23 = 185/186
24 = 181/182
25 = 181/182
26 = 188/189
27 = 185/186
28 = 208/208

Malcrof

TxMoose wrote:

for comparison purposes - have 166thor/142loki/120grocket + 19 or so at 104/102.
last node of 1st set - sim15 = 112/113
2nd sub node levels
sim 15 = 151 (goons)
16 = 143/144
17 = 155
18 = 155
19 = 159
20 = 159
21 = 181/182
22 = 185/186
23 = 185/186
24 = 181/182
25 = 181/182
26 = 188/189
27 = 185/186
28 = 208/208

Yours are only slightly harder than mine (like 1 or 2 levels), i have a 154 3Thor and 154 Doom.. 15 lvl 127's and a mess between 100 and 120.