A simple question to D3 regarding 2* essentials

Dauthi

Why are you suddenly having 2*s required in essential PVE events? What do you intend to promote or gain by doing this? I like to defend you as a developer because I love this game, but for the life of me I can't find a reason you would do this. Give me a reason I should keep 2* Captain America when I already have 3*, other than your new handicap you have created for those who don't have him in PVE.

I have come at it from every angle. It doesn't benefit lower rosters, higher rosters simply have to obtain this easy cover and delete/keep it to face the node. It doesn't promote roster diversity either as 2*s are useless in higher ranks. The only thing I can think of that it promotes is additional roster slots.

Many of us veterans would like to know why after deleting our 2* Captain due to him being useless, now find that we are being penalized for our logical decision (and for a new 3* too that veterans need). If you can give me a response on the basis of your logic we would appreciate it, and I think silence can be generally regarded as the reason being $$$. If anyone else can think of a reason, please bring it up. I want to believe this change had some kind of benefit towards gameplay in general in any way.

EDIT:

Here is the video of them directly stating that roster slot costs are a "top issue" (about 4 minutes in), yet the problem is now being exacerbated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6FSezFt5as

DFiPL

Dauthi wrote:

Why are you suddenly having 2*s required in essential PVE events? What do you intend to promote or gain by doing this? I like to defend you as a developer because I love this game, but for the life of me I can't find a reason you would do this. Give me a reason I should keep 2* Captain America when I already have 3*, other than your new handicap you have created for those who don't have him in PVE.

I have come at it from every angle. It doesn't benefit lower rosters, higher rosters simply have to obtain this easy cover and delete/keep it to face the node. It doesn't promote roster diversity either as 2*s are useless in higher ranks. The only thing I can think of that it promotes is additional roster slots.

I feel many of us veterans would like to know why after deleting our 2* Captain due to him being useless, only to find that we are being penalized for our logical decision (and for a new 3* too that veterans need). If you can give me a response on the basis of your logic we would appreciate it, and I think silence can be generally regarded as the reason being $$$. If anyone else can think of a reason, please bring it up. I want to believe this change had some kind of benefit towards gameplay in general in any way.

Or, you know, maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out because the placement reward from the last PvE was required to do the essentials in THIS PvE, etc.

It's an on-ramp to the treadmill. It's not necessarily about promoting roster slots (although the sale of HP to enable that is probably something they're not complaining about). It's a way for transitioners to get into the 3* cover chase that isn't tied to luck of the token draw.

Dauthi

DFiPL wrote:

Or, you know, maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out because the placement reward from the last PvE was required to do the essentials in THIS PvE, etc.

This is a good point, but progression rewards are always obtainable to those who try. My 2* alliance can easily get 2/3 times the progress reward when needed despite not having a specific essential character. The bar is never set too high, and a random essential 3* node doesn't change that. What this targets is the veterans. Besides, if this was a problem they could have simply dropped the bar, right?

When looking at it from the competition side, it doesn't benefit transitioners either. It is insanely easy for a 3*/4* to complete a 2* captain america, it only costs ISO to level a cover that has no benefits otherwise, then HP to keep that roster slot for the useless character in question. It just means those higher rosters willing to dole out this extra time/money for the ISO/HP will have the same advantage as a 2* who still has 2* Captain America. As a blossoming new player, just imagine you finally have 3* Captain America who outclasses 2* in every way, yet you are being forced to keep him in the random chance D3 creates a new character that you need. How would you feel?

If 2* Captain America is not benefiting me for anything other than an arbitrary new rule that may harm me trying to obtain new covers, why am I being forced to pay for it?

DFiPL

Dauthi wrote:

DFiPL wrote:

Or, you know, maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out because the placement reward from the last PvE was required to do the essentials in THIS PvE, etc.

This is a good point, but progression rewards are always obtainable to those who try. My 2* alliance can easily get 2/3 times the progress reward when needed despite not having a specific essential character. The bar is never set too high, and a random essential 3* node doesn't change that. What this targets is the veterans. Besides, if this was a problem they could have simply dropped the bar, right?

Not so. Or, at least, it hasn't been in the past. Not with any consistency. The last few PvEs they've run, I've found the progression rewards more readily achievable than they were for a while there, Ultron excepted. There have been more than one event where a character was either introduced, or else was a t150 reward (and not already on my roster), and what that meant for the next event was, welp, even if I play optimally I'm not going to finish the progression ladder. I'm willing to concede improvement in the benchmarks for progression rewards, but I'm not willing to concede "always obtainable to those who try." Not when I've had a roster full of 94s with a number of 3* in varying states of completion, and been unable to get progression rewards in past events not because of node scaling, and not because I wasn't hitting the refreshes, but because there simply weren't enough points without access to the essential nodes.

That was the problem for me for the longest time. I couldn't finish t50 (or even t150), and my ability to reach progression tiers was mixed, so the 3* covers I got, I got from token pulls. Eventually, I had enough 1-cover 3's that I could hit more essential nodes than not, and started getting 3* covers from progression whenever the essential was available to me.

It's only been in the last 4-5 events that I've hit max progression in any event where I lacked the essential, and that hasn't been because I just don't put the time in.

When looking at it from the competition side, it doesn't benefit transitioners either. It is insanely easy for a 3*/4* to complete a 2* captain america, it only costs ISO to level a cover that has no benefits otherwise, then HP to keep that roster slot for the useless character in question. It just means those higher rosters willing to dole out this extra time/money for the ISO/HP will have the same advantage as a 2* who still has 2* Captain America. As a blossoming new player, just imagine you finally have 3* Captain America who outclasses 2* in every way, yet you are being forced to keep him in the random chance D3 creates a new character that you need. How would you feel?

Honestly? I've had Cap (3) for months, and kept my Cap (2) anyway. Why? Not because he was going to be essential, but because he was useful while I built my Cap (3). In case you're curious, my Cap (3) is just 2/2/1, even having had him for months. I don't spend HP on powers, so I rely on token pulls, progressions, DDQ, and the odd "how the hell did that happen" placement in PvP or PvE. If anybody's just taking up space, it's Cap (3) right now. I'd consider myself a transitioner. It's just since the ISO leveling reduction that I've been able to take multiple of my 3* characters to 100+, as I now have 9 2* at 94 and 7 3* at 100+. Four of those 3* have been in the last several days.

Seriously, stop and think about this: you've still got one node that most newbies/transitioners can't hit (Hulkbuster) and another that will be hit and miss (Storm 3*). Out of three essential nodes, veterans are complaining about not being able to hit one because they sold off that character. Now imagine how it feels for the newbie or transitioner when they see the nodes they can hit being worth 300 points and an essential node they're locked out of being worth 1500. You talk about disadvantaging the veteran by making a 2* essential, and THAT'S THE BACKGROUND RADIATION OF LOWER-LEVEL PLAYERS' LIVES. They spend entire events feeling that frustration not over one essential node, but over multiple essential nodes. Possibly all of them.

And, I mean, come on: why is this an issue? Because veterans are chasing the Vision cover. Which, once acquired, they will either have to sell somebody off the roster, or else buy a new roster spot to recruit him. What, exactly, pre-empts them from doing that to roster a Cap (2), and then sell off the Cap (2) once they've acquired Vision? It's a move they were going to make anyway, so there was clearly somebody expendable on the roster (or a willingness/ability to spend on Hero Points to expand the roster).

Given that inevitability, I'm not sure how you can honestly argue that one 2* essential node out of three is a shot across veterans' bows. Why can't it just as easily be hey, there's a 2* node, a 3* node, and a 4* node, and now more people are likely to have access to at least one of the three nodes in the sub?

If 2* Captain America is not benefiting me for anything other than an arbitrary new rule that may harm me trying to obtain new covers, why am I being forced to pay for it?

Seriously, do you not see the dichotomy here? You're arguing against it being a case of giving transitioners an on-ramp to the 3* cover chase which might have previously been denied them in favor of it being some dark conspiracy on D3's part to make the 3* cover chase harder on you. It's projection, dude. You're rejecting the possibility that D3 might be addressing enjoyment issues for transitioners in favor of an argument that one 2* node out of three means D3 is trying to put you at the back of the bus with those filthy transitioners.

Unknown

This doesn't help transitioners because they simply will never have enough HP to have for enough slots for both ever growing group of 3* AND all the 2*s. If you argue they should throw away and select 3*s they want instead that even further proves that it makes more harm than good. Instead of helping those in lower regions, it hurts those that don't have 2* Cap, and all those 'big bad wolfs' up will just rent slot for him just to kick moment PvE ends.

Basically it forces new players to laid out cash for HP to get slots. It puts heavy tax on them while being just slight inconvenience for those in 3-4*s.

I still think the best was always having all Essentials having just one same character, one you won from previous event, as it ensured that once you hit t150 or have that character from token that you can jump on that treadmill and by not skipping events just slowly walk forward with steady progression. 4* being awarded just to t50 can shake that a bit, but it's not problem with system, they just should be given out as usual, it's just one PvE that they will feature in ever.

Unknown

All i can say is when i found out about this move D3 pulled, i almost laughed, considering i was just about to sell my 2* Cap to make space if i ever got an extra character, luckily for me i got enough HP before a new one popped up...

I do however agree it seems strange to promote an old 2* character such as Cap when there is such a large selection of 2*'s to choose from, although with that being said, maybe they did it to try and get players to diversify their rosters even further beyond 3* and 4* but also back into 2* areas... since they (D3) do seem to like talking about diversity in players rosters

Pylgrim

This is not new, just very uncommon. It is a pain but more inconvenient than actually damaging. They gave away a 2* cap as a progression reward (at 200) in Beast's PVP and there's another one in TaT that should be achievable somewhere during the second sub. Worst comes to worst, it was only one node in a sub with nodes awarding points only a fraction of what the later subs will. Then you get your cap, open a slot for him and when the event is over, get rid of him and use that slot for the Vision.

What I am trying to say is that yes, it is inconvenient and not ideal but hardly a big issue. When a new PVE for a new character gets announced again, maybe stop selling the 2*s you earn until the essentials are known. Weget tons of 2* from tokens and since there are not that many, chances of opening the one we need are relatively high.

simonsez

DFiPL wrote:

maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out

Do you ever look at the top page of the leaderboard in PvE? It's usually filled with people with 2^ rosters, who are there because they get a massive scaling benefit. So let's not pretend that 2* people need extra help to compete in PvE.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

DFiPL wrote:

maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out

Do you ever look at the top page of the leaderboard in PvE? It's usually filled with people with 2^ rosters, who are there because they get a massive scaling benefit. So let's not pretend that 2* people need extra help to compete in PvE.

Scaling benefit really? Are you sure? My roster is full of level 90 characters and sometimes i'm getting level 250+ enemies, Is that a massive benefit? In my last PVE event, top 10 was something like 8 players with a 200+ level roster. The only reason why you see 2* rosters in the top 10 is because PVE is not about the level of your roster, is all about planning and using your roster and health packs in a smart way. You are just jealous that you can't beat "inferior" rosters in PVE, like you do really easy in PVP for sure.

Btw, i'm a transitioner with some 3* Cap covers, i don't own or care about 2* Cap, now i need 1 more roster slot and a useless 2* Cap cover to play an essential node instead of just using my 3* Cap...

simonsez

Master025 wrote:

Scaling benefit really? Are you sure? My roster is full of level 90 characters and sometimes i'm getting level 250+ enemies

You didn't say, but I KNOW you're talking about goons. They could be level 1000, and it wouldn't matter. It'd just make the node more tedious. Get back to me when you see a lv300+ Fist/Blade/Daken

Megdar

Master025 wrote:

You are just jealous that you can't beat "inferior" rosters in PVE, like you do really easy in PVP for sure.

That

I just ended up second in my EoTS for IMHB and I have only 2* and a couple 3* that barely make it to 94 (7-8 covers), and all the top 10 was full of roster with 13 cover 4* and 3*. And my fight were far from easy. I just planed correctly and used the fact that my 2*Thor was boosted this event.

Unknown

Master025 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

DFiPL wrote:

maybe it gives transitioners who still have most of their strength in 2* land the ability to chase progression rewards every once in a while instead of being locked out

Do you ever look at the top page of the leaderboard in PvE? It's usually filled with people with 2^ rosters, who are there because they get a massive scaling benefit. So let's not pretend that 2* people need extra help to compete in PvE.

Scaling benefit really? Are you sure? My roster is full of level 90 characters and sometimes i'm getting level 250+ enemies, Is that a massive benefit? In my last PVE event, top 10 was something like 8 players with a 200+ level roster. The only reason why you see 2* rosters in the top 10 is because PVE is not about the level of your roster, is all about planning and using your roster and health packs in a smart way. You are just jealous that you can't beat "inferior" rosters in PVE, like you do really easy in PVP for sure.

Btw, i'm a transitioner with some 3* Cap covers, i don't own or care about 2* Cap, now i need 1 more roster slot and a useless 2* Cap cover to play an essential node instead of just using my 3* Cap...

People in 2* land spend time the rest of us would spend in PVP on PVE instead. Obviously they're going to get better results if they spend more time on it. There's no shortage of players with too much time in 2* land, particularly if you're a relatively new player.

I know many people don't agree, but scaling does seem better with a lower scaled roster.

TheOncomingStorm

To quote the great one, "also: money. "

Esheris

Why can't D3 just make it to where you can use any Captain America? Then everyone can be happy and use the one they want.

simonsez

It's pretty funny to be sitting here with over 100 4* covers, and have noobs tell me I'm jealous of them...

Let's just backtrack to where we were before that nonsense started. Someone proposed the idea that a 2* essential was to help 2* people compete. I pointed out that their performance in PvE indicates that don't need any further help to compete, which must be true, since I'm supposedly jealous of them.

The reason for a 2* essential is simple and obvious: it's to show vets that they can't risk selling off 2* characters they don't use anymore. The devs need people buying new roster slots, not just rotating in the newest flavor of the day.

Pylgrim

Master025 wrote:

Btw, i'm a transitioner with some 3* Cap covers, i don't own or care about 2* Cap, now i need 1 more roster slot and a useless 2* Cap cover to play an essential node instead of just using my 3* Cap...

You can use the same roster slot you're opening for 2* Cap to recruit the Vision when the event ends.

PeterGibbons316

Esheris wrote:

Why can't D3 just make it to where you can use any Captain America? Then everyone can be happy and use the one they want.

Came in to say this. I believe the Ultron event was structured this way too.

I get wanting to give the 2* players access to the essential nodes - especially with a new character being released every week it seems. But to require 3* players and transitioners to hold on to them is just a money grab.

Another solution would be to allow roster slots to hold all versions of the same character. So 1 slot could all all your black widows, or IM35, IM40, and IMHB, etc.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

The reason for a 2* essential is simple and obvious: it's to show vets that they can't risk selling off 2* characters they don't use anymore. The devs need people buying new roster slots, not just rotating in the newest flavor of the day.

+1

It's all about the $$$

SnowcaTT

At least they have an easy chance to show it's not all about the $$$.

Roster slot prices can go to free, or at least free for adding characters the first time. Or super cheap (although I've argued for 500HP flat fee, and that may be to costly if you are releasing a character every week).

ZootSax

With all my heavy hitters being 2*'s, I like the 2* Cap essential, but it still seems really strange. The three rewarded covers last event were 2* Storm, 3* Storm and Hulkbuster. Why wouldn't CStorm be the 2* essential if there was going to be one? It would actually make some sense to give 1-->2 transition players an immediate payoff to a Top 300 placement if there was an essential the following event. But that's not what we have here, soft some reason. Who knows?

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

Master025 wrote:

Btw, i'm a transitioner with some 3* Cap covers, i don't own or care about 2* Cap, now i need 1 more roster slot and a useless 2* Cap cover to play an essential node instead of just using my 3* Cap...

You can use the same roster slot you're opening for 2* Cap to recruit the Vision when the event ends.

Unless you don't have the hero points for the roster slot right now.