Give EVERYONE back seed teams!

Unknown

This is a desperate cry to give us back our seed teams for EVERYONE, and restore fun back to PVP for everyone! If you look at the forums since the change, there are tons of threads about how PVP has become no fun. The Event forums for PVP are quite dead compared to 3 months ago. Casual alliance members are ignoring PVP entirely, not even going for even tokens anymore.

Why bring back PVP?
1. Everyone can start on a winning foot.
No one wants to open a PVP and see teams that seem way out of their league. Casual players enjoy this game for what it is, a pleasant waste of time, where you can fight one or two battles and maybe pick up 100 iso. Everyone likes to start off winning.

2. Have a gradual increase in difficulty.
Let's face it, there's been an even bigger lack of targets since the MMR change. More competitive players climb off on casual players. It's nice to have a slow ramp up to a challenging PVP level, as opposed to jumping up to the hardest 270/270 difficulty right away.

3. It'd encourage mid-tier players to expand their roster.
If people are playing more PVP, with expanded rosters they have more a chance to battle while their first teams are healing.

Otherwise, what will be the result? New players avoid PVP because they can't win even one battle. Mid tier players avoid PVP because there's no good targets after the first few battles. Top tier players suffer because no one is playing pvp and they have to hop over each other. Eventually some casual players will just stop playing MPQ altogether. PVP is dying a slow death and it needs a change.

Bringing back seed teams and a few easy battles would cost little, but help revitalize this currently dying format. It's such a small change, and would help make PVP feel fun again for everyone.

Unknown

They don't want people to beat up on trivial teams but fighting strong teams over and over for the early region gets old. I have an idea for a seasons pre qualifying event. Put a PvP event for 5 days during seasons downtime with no rewards, freeform team with no buffs. There are no shields and you have only one node and you can't skip anyone. At the end of this event you start the next season with half of whatever you got in this event, capped at 500. There can't be shields or it'd be trivial to come up with the max and I put no skips because otherwise a score in the 800+ region cannot possibly hold for any period of time without shields. I wanted to say you can't go below those points but somebody might figure out something crazy that involves getting some guys whose point is capped at 500 and just keep on lose over and over so I'll say that you could go below the base points you earned from seasons event for now, though you'd always immediately earn any progression reward at or below whatever your base point is the moment you enter any event.

Vhailorx

You can keep your seed teams. I never had much fun fighting level 17 opponents with 0 points.

What I want back are 2* opponents up to 550 or so.

2* opponents are perfect for this PvP format. Success is almost guaranteed, matches last long enough to actually use abilities and make team crafting significant. A well played Match results in quick total victory, a poorly played Match results in a painful victory that eats a helathpack or two, and a truly terrible Match might result in a loss.

That is perfect in a PvP format that penalizes loss as harshly as this one (you lose points AND burn 60% of health packs). You get matches that feel significant, but don't last forever, and don't present a serious risk of loss until you reach the higher score levels when it's 3* vets only.

Malcrof

daibar wrote:

This is a desperate cry to give us back our seed teams for EVERYONE, and restore fun back to PVP for everyone! If you look at the forums since the change, there are tons of threads about how PVP has become no fun. The Event forums for PVP are quite dead compared to 3 months ago. Casual alliance members are ignoring PVP entirely, not even going for even tokens anymore.

Why bring back PVP?
1. Everyone can start on a winning foot.
No one wants to open a PVP and see teams that seem way out of their league. Casual players enjoy this game for what it is, a pleasant waste of time, where you can fight one or two battles and maybe pick up 100 iso. Everyone likes to start off winning.

2. Have a gradual increase in difficulty.
Let's face it, there's been an even bigger lack of targets since the MMR change. More competitive players climb off on casual players. It's nice to have a slow ramp up to a challenging PVP level, as opposed to jumping up to the hardest 270/270 difficulty right away.

3. It'd encourage mid-tier players to expand their roster.
If people are playing more PVP, with expanded rosters they have more a chance to battle while their first teams are healing.

Otherwise, what will be the result? New players avoid PVP because they can't win even one battle. Mid tier players avoid PVP because there's no good targets after the first few battles. Top tier players suffer because no one is playing pvp and they have to hop over each other. Eventually some casual players will just stop playing MPQ altogether. PVP is dying a slow death and it needs a change.

Bringing back seed teams and a few easy battles would cost little, but help revitalize this currently dying format. It's such a small change, and would help make PVP feel fun again for everyone.

But lets avoid what happened in combined arms.. nothing but seed teams forever.. grueling doing over 60 matches to get 400 points.. with the last 25+ being 1 and 2 points only.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

But lets avoid what happened in combined arms.. nothing but seed teams forever.. grueling doing over 60 matches to get 400 points.. with the last 25+ being 1 and 2 points only.

I actually loved the "Combined Arms" event! Sure the vets probably hated it cause it was more like a repetitive grinding event. However, for a beginner 3* transition-er like myself, it was refreshing to have the oppurtunity to learn all the heroes in my roster really well,and how I can strategically use my roster to survive. I placed top 8 and for the first time got two covers in PVP and the bonus was it was my most wished for hero in MPQ. I think it's nice to have different kinds of events that help people get acquainted with heroes collected in ones' roster, kind of like the gauntlet but less on the grinding side. Had it been the older PVP format, I probably wouldn't have a chance to at least get one cover.

Malcrof

rowie wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

But lets avoid what happened in combined arms.. nothing but seed teams forever.. grueling doing over 60 matches to get 400 points.. with the last 25+ being 1 and 2 points only.

I actually loved the "Combined Arms" event! Sure the vets probably hated it cause it was more like a repetitive grinding event. However, for a beginner 3* transition-er like myself, it was refreshing to have the oppurtunity to learn all the heroes in my roster really well,and how I can strategically use my roster to survive. I placed top 8 and for the first time got two covers in PVP and the bonus was it was my most wished for hero in MPQ. I think it's nice to have different kinds of events that help people get acquainted with heroes collected in ones' roster, kind of like the gauntlet but less on the grinding side. Had it been the older PVP format, I probably wouldn't have a chance to at least get one cover.

You got a lucky slice, i was in like a 70 way tie at 400 pts, and in position 140ish, almost gave up. Went in about 10 minutes before it was over, did a 1 point match and got 77th, for my first ever BP cover. Looks like everyone had given up at 400 points. Winner had like 421 points.. doing another 20 or so 1 point matches against buffed seed teams did not sound like fun.

Unknown

Vhailorx wrote:

You can keep your seed teams. I never had much fun fighting level 17 opponents with 0 points.

What I want back are 2* opponents up to 550 or so.

2* opponents are perfect for this PvP format. Success is almost guaranteed, matches last long enough to actually use abilities and make team crafting significant. A well played Match results in quick total victory, a poorly played Match results in a painful victory that eats a helathpack or two, and a truly terrible Match might result in a loss.

That is perfect in a PvP format that penalizes loss as harshly as this one (you lose points AND burn 60% of health packs). You get matches that feel significant, but don't last forever, and don't present a serious risk of loss until you reach the higher score levels when it's 3* vets only.

2* opponents in the absence of seed teams have no incentive to participate

TxMoose

I still had about 5 or so seed teams, up to ~100 pts. you have to join immediately when it comes up and play a few games early. that has worked for me the last several pvps.

update: last night after my EotS clear I joined my slice for the beast event. it was pre-event then and event started overnight. took 3 clicks to join. this morning after my morning EotS clear I played 3 seed matches at red lights on my way in to work. that isn't that much of a burden for the advantage of 3 free wins. I only got 3 seeds but hey, its better than nothing. that said, I would much prefer the old system - and without multiple buffs.

Unknown

TxMoose wrote:

I still had about 5 or so seed teams, up to ~100 pts. you have to join immediately when it comes up and play a few games early. that has worked for me the last several pvps.

For regular people who don't dedicate their life to this game, this condition isn't reasonable. A lot of people have work or school, or other errands. The condition of joining immediately just isn't reasonable for a lot of us. More points would be available to all if the casual player were allowed a small slice of the pie. Hardcore players get more points to grab from weaker players as long as weaker player are given a chance to win a few battles too.

2* players aren't at 550 now because there's no few battles for them to grab points from. If 2* are only at 150-200, it's harder for everyone above them to climb.

Khanwulf

What teams you see in PVP should be based on a balance of:
1. MMR, of how you fared versus teams above and below a 20 point median value, including using damaged teams.
2. Your "bench" of characters not accounting for currently injured ones.
3. The last set of characters used, at whatever boosted level they clock in as.

At least one of the three nodes should display a target team deemed "equivalent" in strength to your own bench, rated at 20 points. Points assigned according to the level and number of covers of the opposing team, and NOT the target's points. Target's points are irrelevant to difficulty, and represent only how much grinding time they've put in recently.

Seed teams would be needed for only the first three nodes, to set the "last played team" parameter. If you wanted to run a B- or C-team lineup through PVP you would end up facing opponents of lower levels, but lower point values (because they are weaker than your full bench). While if you run your A-team you see faster progression for a while, but end up facing stronger teams overall until you start losing.

All this gives a place for folks who want to operate more casually, don't have a strong 3* team, or even 2*. You would still be looking at a few hours to get to 300 points and unlock a heroic pull, especially if running B-teams.

As is, there is no point to playing PVP unless you have the strongest characters leveled optimally, and even then you won't accumulate enough points to advance because your teams don't have enough endurance (and your B-team can't make a dent, so won't get played). Someplace in all the PVP changes the endurance aspect got lost.

--Khanwulf

grunth13

Heres a thought...why not just give up on pvp. They obviously can't get MMR right. Scrap the whole **** thing. I think what they should do is they have predetermined rosters like a gauntlet that you can skip, but you lose some points for doing that. Going from seed team to all the way to 290/270/270. As your go up the progression, points per match is greater as the difficulty gets harder. You get the iso, hp, tokens, covers like they are. Also, you can't attack anyone else as all the teams are a stable of teams the devs have chosen at certain levels. At the end of the 2 day pvp, you have placement depending on your total score. Or you can just do what the pvp was like before the recent changes and just lose the whole concept of losing points from retaliation and losing. This makes it so noobs will try to fight stronger players and occasionally may win for some good points and not have to worry about retaliation. I know when I play pvp, I don't have a great roster for it, I go to a certain level and stop attacking. No reason for me to attack level 166/166/166 with a roster that is max 104, granted I have a decent amount of them because if I lose the match i lose points, if I win I will get points but have to immediately use healthpacks and then get retaliated against and lose points. They can still make it competitive, but you get rid of the whole retaliation and losing points for trying above your level part.

Unknown

Or they could just drop this ridiculous weighted matchmaking entirely, stop letting people snipe across ladders, and move towards something that resembles a legitimate tournament system that actually functions properly and doesn't require contrived workarounds that are almost universally unfair and unfun.

slidecage

depends on what happens tonight i think i may give up on PVP. sunday pvp i was able to get up to 550 pts for the first time ever. they go attacks will not hurt that much and you can attack back at lower levels. I get up to 550 and then hit a pure 166 3 star wall... Im attacked 6 times each hitting from 22 to 30 pts of damage knocking me down to 400 pts when i hit to replay i still had nothing to 3 star 166 team wall there was no way to attack, i wrote in and asked about this and they said

That is what the shield is for,,,Sorry but im not going to spend 100s of HP on shields

udonomefoo

slidecage wrote:

depends on what happens tonight i think i may give up on PVP. sunday pvp i was able to get up to 550 pts for the first time ever. they go attacks will not hurt that much and you can attack back at lower levels. I get up to 550 and then hit a pure 166 3 star wall... Im attacked 6 times each hitting from 22 to 30 pts of damage knocking me down to 400 pts when i hit to replay i still had nothing to 3 star 166 team wall there was no way to attack, i wrote in and asked about this and they said

That is what the shield is for,,,Sorry but im not going to spend 100s of HP on shields

I get what you're saying and I used to scoff at using shields too, but if you wait until a few hours before the event ends to make that final push from 400ish to 500-550, then put up a 3 hour shield, you're essentially paying 75 hp for the top 100 cover. That's pretty cheap if it's a cover you want. Not to mention that top 100 gets you 25 hp, so that offsets some cost too.

That's what I have been doing lately at least. For me that's an improvement over playing to 300 for a mostly useless token and then quitting.

Moon Roach

I've found that if the game is open when the event starts, you get seed teams. I leave my Steam game running all the time, apparently I've played 2760 hours...

Pylgrim

Khanwulf wrote:

What teams you see in PVP should be based on a balance of:
1. MMR, of how you fared versus teams above and below a 20 point median value, including using damaged teams.
2. Your "bench" of characters not accounting for currently injured ones.
3. The last set of characters used, at whatever boosted level they clock in as.

At least one of the three nodes should display a target team deemed "equivalent" in strength to your own bench, rated at 20 points. Points assigned according to the level and number of covers of the opposing team, and NOT the target's points. Target's points are irrelevant to difficulty, and represent only how much grinding time they've put in recently.

Seed teams would be needed for only the first three nodes, to set the "last played team" parameter. If you wanted to run a B- or C-team lineup through PVP you would end up facing opponents of lower levels, but lower point values (because they are weaker than your full bench). While if you run your A-team you see faster progression for a while, but end up facing stronger teams overall until you start losing.

All this gives a place for folks who want to operate more casually, don't have a strong 3* team, or even 2*. You would still be looking at a few hours to get to 300 points and unlock a heroic pull, especially if running B-teams.

As is, there is no point to playing PVP unless you have the strongest characters leveled optimally, and even then you won't accumulate enough points to advance because your teams don't have enough endurance (and your B-team can't make a dent, so won't get played). Someplace in all the PVP changes the endurance aspect got lost.

--Khanwulf

Problem with making the total of points to gain not subtractive (i.e. you gain points by taking them from other players) is that it makes it so the ones who grind 24/7 (and I assure you there would be some) would be time after time the ones placing first with several thousands of points. You'd have no chance of earning a position but by grinding more than the top X grinders above you.

Reading this thread I get the impression that everybody wants something different from PVP and scoff collectively at MMR. However, it may very well be the case that MMR is what can keep everybody equally moderately unhappy as opposed to making one subset ecstatic while screwing all the others. Kinda like democracy, which is said to be the worst form of government except all the others.

Khanwulf

Pylgrim wrote:

Problem with making the total of points to gain not subtractive (i.e. you gain points by taking them from other players) is that it makes it so the ones who grind 24/7 (and I assure you there would be some) would be time after time the ones placing first with several thousands of points. You'd have no chance of earning a position but by grinding more than the top X grinders above you.

Reading this thread I get the impression that everybody wants something different from PVP and scoff collectively at MMR. However, it may very well be the case that MMR is what can keep everybody equally moderately unhappy as opposed to making one subset ecstatic while screwing all the others. Kinda like democracy, which is said to be the worst form of government except all the others.

I was actually not suggesting eliminating the taking of points from losers. Not sure how that was communicated, but I'll give that my post could have been refined to greater coherence.

My main point is that if you go to play PVP, you should always see at least one "base" node that is an achievable fight. Maybe you need to skip past teams that attacked you to find it, but it should be there, using your A-team even if you have to apply health packs on them. People should never hit a "wall" that ends their play prematurely. If they want to grind 24/7 then they will still be grinding on the other players, subtracting their points and triggering counters (counter attacks being a key to controlling inflated point totals). They'll also be burning health packs, which is a positive from D3's perspective I presume.

Seed teams should be seed teams: available once, and then gone. Eliminating seed teams entirely results in zero-point placements at the wall. There's no benefit to that, and it makes me at least want to flip off the phone (in all ways you can take that)--and do something else. If folks avoid this by jumping into an event time immediately when it's available--great! But that option is not available to everyone due to work, life, etc.

So, yeah, current changes to PVP, combined with the MMR, make me more than moderately unhappy with it. It is completely unplayable. I'm not going to waste my time suiciding teams into the wall in the hope that it will eventually lower my MMR. I have better things to do. I will play matches I think I can win, and win well enough that I can do another match reasonably soon, in the hope of progressing before the attacks come in.

--Khanwulf

SnowcaTT

I would like to see every PVP-ish matchup (LR, PVP, Sim) to not only have the 3 seed teams, but say something like 12. This helps the high levels get ISO, and the low levels get points easily. I'd say "EVERYONE WANTS THIS", but then someone comes in and complains that it means their 12 maxed 4*'s have to hit 12 teams that do no damage to them are "only" worth 15 points....

Chirus

Seeds are like lesser organisms in an ecosystem: humans might not notice them immediately when they're gone, but it eventually affects them since they depend on things that depend on them. Likewise, seeds allow something beginner players can beat up on and get a few points and isos, which allows two star rosters targets to get enough for event tokens, which allow transitioners targets to get the featured cover, which allows veterans targets and also a bit of a cushion before aiming for higher tiered rewards. The analogy kinda breaks down since veterans can still technically get by without lower players and still perform well, but you get my drift. It still affects the fun level if the whole way up feels like a struggle.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

But lets avoid what happened in combined arms.. nothing but seed teams forever.. grueling doing over 60 matches to get 400 points.. with the last 25+ being 1 and 2 points only.

As painful as that was, that was the first time I've ever gotten more than one good cover from an event, because I started early and grinded it hard all the way through. What a shock when I suddenly got attacked and in a couple of losses dropped 30 points! haha... I would not want that all the time, as it got really annoying toward the end when we were fighting over 2 points a match, but having more seed teams of various levels to battle as you work your way up would be much better than suddenly facing 150+ level characters you have no chance of beating (sometimes inexplicably worth considerably less points than a 50-level team).

Unknown

If the goal is to push away vets, they've done a good job with this one (yesterday was Day 500)...

I spent all of last week doing Ultron and DDQ and very little else in MPQ. Last night I spent a little time in Enemy of the State and then tried my first PvP match in a week or so in the Scarlet Witch PvP - could find nothing but 70/166/166 or higher matches for the first match - played it and won but needed 3 health packs following it. I have finally have my roster with a handful of 166's (LThor, GSBW, BP, Doom, Pun) and a few more optimally covered 3* around 100 or so (Patch, Daken, LCap, Hood, Hulk, CMags). I should be at a point where I can start competing for 4* covers in PvP (6 months ago, my roster would have allowed me to climb to 800 reasonably). Not any more.

If I am going to need health packs after every match because they can't find a way to set up PvP to allow us to actually climb the rankings reasonably, or adjust the rewards to match the new difficulty, or stop the CPU from the ridiculous cascades that tend to eat my better heroes alive, I'm just not going to bother.

Looks like I will start my day with the 2 tacos from DDQ (although in the last 2 weeks I've pulled only 1 gold from a token when I had been pulling 2-3 per week) - save the main node for the day reset and finish it to collect my reward and then do a little light PvE at night. Unfortunately this means no more 4* covers for me but it also means no more $$$ spent (no more roster spots, no way I will use real money anymore for health packs, no more covers purchased, etc).

They have the right to set the game up however they choose to, so I guess I will adjust the way I play then... too bad as many have said, a wonderful game concept that they have broken...