PVP struggle - chain reaction?

Unknown

Back before MMR change PVP worked like that:
- Noobs would fight seed teams.
- Low level would climb to 300-400 points to get a token and if lucky some HP.
- High flyers would have enough easy targets to climb comfortably to 500-600 to start from there their high-flyer derby.

Even though some people argue that this is "unfair" for low level guys I find it to work perfectly as intended. I was fine with my 2* star roster to get an event token, some HP if I got lucky and harvest some ISO along the way.

Now with the MMR change and the absence of seed teams low level players find no reason to play PVPs and it seems to cause chain reaction. High rosters have no easy targets to stomp on. And it looks like nobody won with that. Noobs practically give up on PVPs. High rosters still can fight for placement but their progression is put out of reach. They can get an event token and some HP if they are lucky - and that used to the case for 2*.

Will the D3 profit from this? I highly doubt. Looks like lose-lose case.

MarvelMan

To play devils advocate from how I actually feel, the MMR change is a good thing. Across the board.

If you are fighting teams equivalent to yours at all times theoretically everyone can climb to 1k. The only thing holding you back would be where you cross the threshold and become visible to everyone. Plus, with other low teams able to climb higher it means that there are higher point matches for low teams. And they dont get beat down by people that have put in the effort to develop better teams.

For more developed rosters, you are forced to use roster depth. Both due to the MM and the multiple boosted chars. Its the diversity we have heard is fun


Okay, so I tried but apparently Im not very good at playing DA.

The previous system could be gamed by tanking and definitely had issues such as bubbles or requiring thousands of ISO spent skipping, but it felt like there was progression within the game and within the PVE. As you played and accumulated points you fought harder battles. That felt good (and had the side effect that you could use roster depth early) and as you built your roster up, you could get further in PVPs. Progression is fun and feels good. Oh well.

MarvelMan

And I forgot something: health packs.

Malcrof

Being in 3* transition land, i love the MMR change. I can now make 500 points easily, and never hit a wall that some skips can't handle, where before i struggled to get to 300 points before a wall of 270's made it impossible to progress.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

To play devils advocate from how I actually feel, the MMR change is a good thing. Across the board.

If you are fighting teams equivalent to yours at all times theoretically everyone can climb to 1k. The only thing holding you back would be where you cross the threshold and become visible to everyone. Plus, with other low teams able to climb higher it means that there are higher point matches for low teams. And they dont get beat down by people that have put in the effort to develop better teams.

For more developed rosters, you are forced to use roster depth. Both due to the MM and the multiple boosted chars. Its the diversity we have heard is fun


Okay, so I tried but apparently Im not very good at playing DA.

The previous system could be gamed by tanking and definitely had issues such as bubbles or requiring thousands of ISO spent skipping, but it felt like there was progression within the game and within the PVE. As you played and accumulated points you fought harder battles. That felt good (and had the side effect that you could use roster depth early) and as you built your roster up, you could get further in PVPs. Progression is fun and feels good. Oh well.

The problem there is that roster depth doesn't seem to factor in to whatever math determines my optimum matches. I have many characters below 100 because I don't have the covers or ISO to level them up. But my lucky pulls and desire to spend ISO when I had it mean that my 153 Hulk and 140 Punisher make it so that I can't use a lot of that deep roster in PvP.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Being in 3* transition land, i love the MMR change. I can now make 500 points easily, and never hit a wall that some skips can't handle, where before i struggled to get to 300 points before a wall of 270's made it impossible to progress.

I'm glad for you. But with more and more people giving up on PVP it might be not that rosy in the future

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

If you are fighting teams equivalent to yours at all times theoretically everyone can climb to 1k.

Everyone opens up about 600, so when those 2 stars hit the threshold I'm going to go at them like Fisk with a car door.

Edit: Under the old rules I would never hit a lower roster more than once, now I just stomp them to make a point.

MarvelMan

Malcrof wrote:

Being in 3* transition land, i love the MMR change. I can now make 500 points easily, and never hit a wall that some skips can't handle, where before i struggled to get to 300 points before a wall of 270's made it impossible to progress.

This was likely due to other factors than the MM and, even if part of it was MM, there were ways to address it (tank, under-perform, etc). If you were running into a "wall of 270's" at around 300 points there was likely something off about your personal MMR. Even after getting my XF I still never saw a "wall" at 300, let alone 500. It usually wasnt til about 550 that i started seeing them used. Or if I did see them earlier, it was a random match I could skip past.

I appreciate that the current system is working for you (Im honestly happy that someone benefits) but in general it seems bad for the game.

MarvelMan

MarCr wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

If you are fighting teams equivalent to yours at all times theoretically everyone can climb to 1k.

Everyone opens up about 600, so when those 2 stars hit the threshold I'm going to go at them like Fisk with a car door.

Ill have to go back and re-read the posts. I thought it also factored in where you are in the leaderboard.

Malcrof

shurak wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Being in 3* transition land, i love the MMR change. I can now make 500 points easily, and never hit a wall that some skips can't handle, where before i struggled to get to 300 points before a wall of 270's made it impossible to progress.

I'm glad for you. But with more and more people giving up on PVP it might be not that rosy in the future

Not happy about people giving up, but i am happy about it getting harder, somewhat. I don't want to get a deep roster of level 166's and coast, i want the matches to get harder, and i will work just as hard for my points. Currently i have 0 level 166's, so i am thankful for being able to actually compete. Last season i had my best finish ever (320 or so), was very proud of that!

All that being said, i am not a vet at only 130 days, so i do not see what you see, but i will eventually, so maybe my opinion will change then.

MarvelMan

Malcrof wrote:

shurak wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Being in 3* transition land, i love the MMR change. I can now make 500 points easily, and never hit a wall that some skips can't handle, where before i struggled to get to 300 points before a wall of 270's made it impossible to progress.

I'm glad for you. But with more and more people giving up on PVP it might be not that rosy in the future

Not happy about people giving up, but i am happy about it getting harder, somewhat. I don't want to get a deep roster of level 166's and coast, i want the matches to get harder, and i will work just as hard for my points. Currently i have 0 level 166's, so i am thankful for being able to actually compete. Last season i had my best finish ever (320 or so), was very proud of that!

All that being said, i am not a vet at only 130 days, so i do not see what you see, but i will eventually, so maybe my opinion will change then.

Sadly, the bolded part is what we HAD....but not what you see now.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

All that being said, i am not a vet at only 130 days, so i do not see what you see, but i will eventually, so maybe my opinion will change then.

You will see what I see in 4 days when you hit 134

Malcrof

shurak wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

All that being said, i am not a vet at only 130 days, so i do not see what you see, but i will eventually, so maybe my opinion will change then.

You will see what I see in 4 days when you hit 134

I needed some suggestions for my roster viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29107

that is where i am at day 130, i have the wrong covers for everyone, but seem to do fairly well considering.

Post your roster over there, i bet you can get some help in balancing it to make PVP better. I tried some of their suggestions, and had quite a bit of fun going through PVP's with absurd random teams.

Mind you, i always do a battle with my defensive team when it is time for a break.

ZootSax

MarvelMan wrote:

To play devils advocate from how I actually feel, the MMR change is a good thing. Across the board.

If you are fighting teams equivalent to yours at all times theoretically everyone can climb to 1k. The only thing holding you back would be where you cross the threshold and become visible to everyone. Plus, with other low teams able to climb higher it means that there are higher point matches for low teams. And they dont get beat down by people that have put in the effort to develop better teams.

For more developed rosters, you are forced to use roster depth. Both due to the MM and the multiple boosted chars. Its the diversity we have heard is fun


Okay, so I tried but apparently Im not very good at playing DA.

The previous system could be gamed by tanking and definitely had issues such as bubbles or requiring thousands of ISO spent skipping, but it felt like there was progression within the game and within the PVE. As you played and accumulated points you fought harder battles. That felt good (and had the side effect that you could use roster depth early) and as you built your roster up, you could get further in PVPs. Progression is fun and feels good. Oh well.

In theory, you should be correct. Unfortunately, for it to work the system would needs pretty uniform participation across all levels of roster development, which just isn't happening nowadays.

When the changes went into effect last season, I hit the 500 progression for the first time ever (I got smacked back down to ~350 by event's end, but that's just PVP), as I was able to skip until I found other 2* rosters for ~100 iso/round, even above the 400 progression--which is exactly like what you said could happen, yet wasn't always true before. After that, however,things got harder as participation of other 2* teams appeared to drop and my scores went down accordingly every event. I was still able to maintain at least a 300 progression, as I had before, though. I missed the 10-pack for the season, because the "166 wall" for the simulator hit around 250 on the progression there (instead of ~1,100, as previously). Still, not a big deal, as I could at least get the 3* cover at 3000 pts for the season.

This season has been a completely different story. Instead of ~100 iso being the break-even for skips, it's now closer to ~150-250 iso, at best, to find another 2* roster, which turns PVP into a net losing proposition for iso, even if you win every team you face. What's more, with less 2* participants, the higher rosters hit you much sooner. In the current SW PVP, for example, I only found one 2* team, so I could only hit the 25 pt progression (I try not to repeatedly hit the same people, but I never saw that person again, regardless). Sitting at 25 pts, I've been attacked by 7 different teams over the past 12 hours, where the minimum non-boosted character level of any non-loaner was 144. My max character is a 110 Hulk, with no one else above 100. I could spend the iso to try and find other rosters less than level 125 or so, but those rosters didn't seem to exist over the 50 progression last event, so the incentive to get one more progression prize here seems hardly worth the bother--and it would likely be a net loss in iso, when all was said and done.

Getting a standard token for progression and a second for placement for less than the 1k iso it would cost me to buy doesn't seem like enough incentive to be nothing more than a substitute seed teams for other, higher level rosters to feed on. Under the current system, that's all 2* players have to look for in PVP, unless I've just been in some unlucky brackets. Hopefully other 2* players have had better experiences. If more of us played PVP, it could be more functional. I'm just not seeing it now...

Druss

getting harder, somewhat. I don't want to get a deep roster of level 166's and coast, i want the matches to get harder

Problem is "somewhat" harder isn't what is happening.

I have 25+ Lv166's but the easiest match I find in PvP nowadays is 290/270/200+ (weekly featured or another maxed 4*). Now even throwing strongest army at that you cant do more than a single match without needing a healthpack (only 1 if your lucky) - given the extra health now the wait can be 6 hours to heal naturally (Cyclops).

Before, as stated in above thread climb to 5-600 was fairly straightforward - now I have to put the same level of effort in to get to 200 - never mind 600.

I have been with top 100 Alliances since the seasons began & never struggled to meet requirements throughout the 2* and transitioning phase, Now once my Roster is fairly robust I'm struggling to meet even 33% of requirements - something is backwards with this.

In order to score 600 (which lets face it, will still get you kicked from good alliances) now I'd have to play 3 times longer & start buying healthpacks on an hourly basis. Basically I am now getting scaled out of the game completely (don't even mention Lv 200+ Adamantium slashes & Kishu's & Gorgons!)

Basically a 3* army is very weak against this level of opposition (not saying unbeatable - still very rarely lose a match - only that every battle is a one shot deal, then that army is so damaged as to be unusable) so answer is use the 4*, however:

a) scoring 200 in PvP doesn't quite guarantee top 2 placement & they aren't given out anywhere else &
b) even if you have a solid set of maxed 4* - most of them are **** anyway!

MarvelMan

ZootSax wrote:

*snip* If more of us played PVP, it could be more functional. I'm just not seeing it now...

That is the problem with the new MM (combined with progression rewards). I hear, anecdotally, that fewer and fewer people are playing. Which exacerbates the problems. It just isnt fun seeing the same strength teams from opening battle. There is no sense of progression. I didnt realize how strongly that played into the fun of PVP.

I barely played Earths Strongest, skipped Combined Arms (day 550+ and that is the first even I EVER completely skipped) and ignored BP til the last hour.

My take (which seems to be generally shared):
PVE is very grindy.
PVP has gotten monotonous
DPDQ is still good, even if its aging as a format.

Punisher5784

I abandoned PVP moreso due to the new time slices, but the multiple buffed characters and the MMR changes don't help either. I don't see how MPQ benefits from these changes in PVP either.

Taganov

So whatever they've done with PvP, around 450 is the new 600. I could win matches, but I was quite visible to the 270/270/166 teams above 400, and as soon as I hit 500 the retaliations and hits came faster than I could put points on the board. Never liked the PvP formula because higher progression was built purely on shield hops, but I could at least hit the 600 consistently before. It's a slog now; I'll probably start quitting at 300 if I bother with it at all.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

shurak wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

All that being said, i am not a vet at only 130 days, so i do not see what you see, but i will eventually, so maybe my opinion will change then.

You will see what I see in 4 days when you hit 134

I needed some suggestions for my roster viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29107

that is where i am at day 130, i have the wrong covers for everyone, but seem to do fairly well considering.

Post your roster over there, i bet you can get some help in balancing it to make PVP better. I tried some of their suggestions, and had quite a bit of fun going through PVP's with absurd random teams.

Mind you, i always do a battle with my defensive team when it is time for a break.

I can occasionally pick on a stronger team for fun but I don't find it amusing to do it constantly.
I used to farm some ISO in PVPs and I didn't care that I was fodder for stronger teams. I didn't expect to place well and was fine with it.
I'm not about to commit a lot of time/effort to do it well - it's a game, not my job. But now it requires a lot of that with practically no reward. So I find myself now skipping PVPs altogether or just playing couple of matches when I feel like it.

Malcrof

Just once i would like to hit the 1k progression, so far, my only 4*'s (outside of a prof x purple from a PVE, and a 0/2/1 IMHB from Ultron) have all been lucky token draws.

MarvelMan

Malcrof wrote:

Just once i would like to hit the 1k progression, so far, my only 4*'s (outside of a prof x purple from a PVE, and a 0/2/1 IMHB from Ultron) have all been lucky token draws.

How did you get a 0/2/1 from Ultron? Wouldnt that have require the Rd 6 clear and 3 lucky pulls?