Simple Solution to the Progression/Lockout problems

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DaveR4470
DaveR4470 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
edited April 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
Problem: Alliance members can be locked out of lower tiers of Ultron due to their alliance moving faster than their pace, resulting in excessive difficulty reaching progression targets (as nodes become too difficult to clear, not enough left to get points, etc.)

Simple solution: Next time, make it an ALLIANCE-based progression (and adjust progression totals to reflect that).

Wouldn't that fix things pretty thoroughly? The down side is that slackers get the benefit of achievers' efforts.... but isn't that a better outcome than having some achievers get nothing?
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  • They already have an alliance progression, which is the opportunity to win Scarlet Witch covers. Having personal vs alliance rewards adds to the spice. What they really should do is just not Lockout the final node after Ultron8 is done.
  • slidecage
    slidecage Posts: 3,233 Chairperson of the Boards
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    DaveR4470 wrote:
    Problem: Alliance members can be locked out of lower tiers of Ultron due to their alliance moving faster than their pace, resulting in excessive difficulty reaching progression targets (as nodes become too difficult to clear, not enough left to get points, etc.)

    Simple solution: Next time, make it an ALLIANCE-based progression (and adjust progression totals to reflect that).

    Wouldn't that fix things pretty thoroughly? The down side is that slackers get the benefit of achievers' efforts.... but isn't that a better outcome than having some achievers get nothing?

    dont know how you can call some Slackers (almost almost called them slashers) when some might have Punisher and many dont. I was wondering how people with teams almost like mine was doing so many clears when i was having problems, found out they have punisher with 5 reds meaning once the boss is down to 40% healh use the red skill and win.

    Those with 5 red punishers have a hell of a lot easier time in this event then those without
  • JVReal
    JVReal Posts: 1,884 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I have punisher but only at 2 red covers, so I didn't use him at all.

    For Ultron I was using 2*Thor maxed (or 3*Thor partially covered with 5/3/2 lvl 127 so they are almost interchangeable), Hulk or Groot, GSBW. Focusing on GSBW Purple/Green and switch between her Red and Thor's Red depending on Bomb control at the time they were ready. Thor always got to use his Yellow. Groot healing helped a lot.

    For waves, Thor(s), Steve Rogers (even at 2/1/2 his blue w/stun turning into protect tile was extremely helpful even if it couldn't overwrite specials), and required. When out of health packs, I'd swap in Blade, or Mystique, or pretty much anyone with some damage potential.

    No IronMan in my roster, so even without that required character, was able to hit 1 million and stop.

    Others using Patch, Hulk, Blade, Pun, IF, Loki, quite a variety of usable characters in this event.
  • JamieMadrox
    JamieMadrox Posts: 1,798 Chairperson of the Boards
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    JVReal wrote:
    I have punisher but only at 2 red covers, so I didn't use him at all.

    For Ultron I was using 2*Thor maxed (or 3*Thor partially covered with 5/3/2 lvl 127 so they are almost interchangeable), Hulk or Groot, GSBW. Focusing on GSBW Purple/Green and switch between her Red and Thor's Red depending on Bomb control at the time they were ready. Thor always got to use his Yellow. Groot healing helped a lot.

    For waves, Thor(s), Steve Rogers (even at 2/1/2 his blue w/stun turning into protect tile was extremely helpful even if it couldn't overwrite specials), and required. When out of health packs, I'd swap in Blade, or Mystique, or pretty much anyone with some damage potential.

    No IronMan in my roster, so even without that required character, was able to hit 1 million and stop.

    Others using Patch, Hulk, Blade, Pun, IF, Loki, quite a variety of usable characters in this event.
    Patch & Loki for all essentials except the Black Widow ones.
    Professor X, GSBW, Mystique for Ultron, Ultron Prime, and Black Widow essentials.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I have Punisher 5 red and didn't use him once. I used one team the entire event with only the 3rd being variable
    Patch, Rocket/Groot
    Survival waves: + essential character
    Ultron rounds: + LCap
    Prime nodes: + Cage
  • Cage and Patch for the waves, it takes a lot longer but I would use 1 Health per 3 nodes. GSBW, Patch, and anyone with Blue or Black for ultron. My GSBW is undercovered in purple, but once u have 27 green its pretty much over.
  • TLCstormz
    TLCstormz Posts: 1,668
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    The REAL Problem : Some alliance members were locked out of the ENTIRE GAME for several hours, due to D3s servers, while some alliance members breezed through the first several rounds.
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
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    I went with Patch plus Cage/GSBW and required depending on node type. If I got to pick all three....that meant i just left whoever I had last used. It just didnt matter. Cage was just about a must for the side nodes. GSBW made the vanilla Ultron a breeze. Gather purple, create green crits while destroying bombs, fire off Sniper. Rinse, repeat. Usually took two (Ultron was lvl 400 after node 5), unless I had Patch fire off TBTI.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
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    fmftint wrote:
    I have Punisher 5 red and didn't use him once. I used one team the entire event with only the 3rd being variable

    Me too. Never occurred to me to use Punisher, because having the ability to keep bombs at bay seemed a lot more important than killing him a tiny bit sooner.

    Mine were: 3* Thor, GSBW, CMags, with Black Panther subbing in for Cmags a few times just for the rainbow. Tetris Ultron is GSBW's kitty; everyone else was just there to keep her alive if something went wrong.
  • stowaway wrote:
    fmftint wrote:
    I have Punisher 5 red and didn't use him once. I used one team the entire event with only the 3rd being variable

    Me too. Never occurred to me to use Punisher, because having the ability to keep bombs at bay seemed a lot more important than killing him a tiny bit sooner.

    Mine were: 3* Thor, GSBW, CMags, with Black Panther subbing in for Cmags a few times just for the rainbow. Tetris Ultron is GSBW's kitty; everyone else was just there to keep her alive if something went wrong.

    I just ran GSBW, Quicksilver (with only 1 black cover), Punisher this morning, and it worked really well. QS specifically seems tailor-made for this event when you have the ability to move tiles around. And by the time (I feel) you're fighting Round 7 Ultron you're not taking him out just a little bit sooner. You're cutting the fight almost in half because (at least for me) I'm not doing a ton of damage to him in matches. It's all skills so saving up some red for Punisher to end the fight is great.
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    How about locking the nodes for a person if the finale is unlocked on prime AND they have the last quicksilver progression reward. Members who do not yet have all 3 quicksilver could replay until they did. The quick get all the rewards, without allowing them to over-farm, and the slow aren't locked out.
  • DaveR4470
    DaveR4470 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
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    slidecage wrote:
    dont know how you can call some Slackers (almost almost called them slashers) when some might have Punisher and many dont. I was wondering how people with teams almost like mine was doing so many clears when i was having problems, found out they have punisher with 5 reds meaning once the boss is down to 40% healh use the red skill and win.

    Those with 5 red punishers have a hell of a lot easier time in this event then those without

    The "slacker" reference was w/r/t the fact that if there was a single total-achieved-by-your-alliance progression reward structure that gave each progression tier to everyone in the alliance as the applicable number was hit, someone could do one node at the beginning of the event for 1000 points, leave for the rest of the event, and still get the top progression awards because their alliance-mates worked their butts off. If you prefer economic terminology (and who doesn't, amirite????), it opens up a free rider problem bigtime. That's an inevitable cost to the kind of thing I'm thinking of. But I think that's better than seeing someone worthy locked out of a reward they should have earned due to event mechanics.
  • daibar wrote:
    They already have an alliance progression, which is the opportunity to win Scarlet Witch covers. Having personal vs alliance rewards adds to the spice. What they really should do is just not Lockout the final node after Ultron8 is done.

    This is a better solution than changing personal progress to alliance progress. Just let Ultron hang on at 0 health so he can be piñata'd for points until the event is over. Or just add on a round 9 where he also has 6 million health.
  • Or maybe they should just remove the progression points. Too many people are complaining about them. People just want everything.Be happy there are progression points.
    As a reminder, the last round has to close to trigger the final ultron prime node to open. It has to close.

    The structure is fine. The only issue is that the servers crashed at the beginning and a lot of people missed out. However, there will always be people who have better rosters or do more than others. If alliances have weaker players, coordinate so that they can fight the Ultron first and get the earlier awards. That's the job of the alliances, not D3.
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
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    Best solution Ive seen, credit to SteveBob, is to scale down the progression rewards so that the top is ~825k. That leaves enough points for all members to hit the top, and is doable on the fly (they have done it before) plus it makes it a tad easier for new players and transition. If you dont coordinate point totals, some would miss, but that is on the alliance not the game.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
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    jclast wrote:
    I just ran GSBW, Quicksilver (with only 1 black cover), Punisher this morning, and it worked really well. QS specifically seems tailor-made for this event when you have the ability to move tiles around. And by the time (I feel) you're fighting Round 7 Ultron you're not taking him out just a little bit sooner. You're cutting the fight almost in half because (at least for me) I'm not doing a ton of damage to him in matches. It's all skills so saving up some red for Punisher to end the fight is great.

    My experience was by the time he was at 40% health, I had enough AP to do away with him the traditional way. I wouldn't bring Punisher against him because his black damage is trivial, and his green (being random) has the potential to do more harm than good.

    But I'll admit that I'm probably an unusual player, in that I often kept going even when I had the abilities to kill him, because I wanted to see how long I could go without letting a bomb get to the bottom.
  • DaveR4470
    DaveR4470 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
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    Lerysh wrote:
    daibar wrote:
    They already have an alliance progression, which is the opportunity to win Scarlet Witch covers. Having personal vs alliance rewards adds to the spice. What they really should do is just not Lockout the final node after Ultron8 is done.

    This is a better solution than changing personal progress to alliance progress. Just let Ultron hang on at 0 health so he can be piñata'd for points until the event is over. Or just add on a round 9 where he also has 6 million health.

    I don't think it is, because it only solves half the problem.

    You all seem to be approaching it from the perspective of an alliance with all 3-4* level players, where the "lockout" is that you run out of nodes to play. That's an issue, for sure -- but it's not the entire problem. The other half of the "lockout" is people having their alliances progress beyond the level at which they can defeat nodes, "locking" them out of the lower-level nodes where their rosters can compete. Having Ultron9 as a pinata doesn't help a 2*-level player who hasn't been able to compete effectively for 4 rounds because the sentries take 4 turns to decimate whatever roster he/she throws up.

    The unlocking of Ultron Prime nodes are already a collective effort where the actions of your alliance-mates benefit you directly. I'm saying that making the progression awards the same solves a lot of these issues (at the cost of the free rider problem).
  • There is that to consider, but my counter argument would be that 2* rosters shouldn't really be expected to put up 1,000,000 points anyway. 500,000 perhaps, but 1Mil is a stretch. Being locked out due to scaling is a roster specific problem. Being locked out due to other alliance members succeeding is not a roster specific problem, it's global. Yes, it's being felt more by the top alliances but it's still a problem that needs a solution.

    Adding on available points means anyone who can reach 1 million should reach 1 million. If you can't, you can't. That's part of the event. Gifting 2* rosters with progression rewards earned on the backs of their alliance doesn't just have a free rider problem it almost obligates a free rider problem, since the 2* roster can't compete anyway.
  • cletus1985
    cletus1985 Posts: 276 Mover and Shaker
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    DaveR4470 wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    daibar wrote:
    They already have an alliance progression, which is the opportunity to win Scarlet Witch covers. Having personal vs alliance rewards adds to the spice. What they really should do is just not Lockout the final node after Ultron8 is done.

    This is a better solution than changing personal progress to alliance progress. Just let Ultron hang on at 0 health so he can be piñata'd for points until the event is over. Or just add on a round 9 where he also has 6 million health.

    I don't think it is, because it only solves half the problem.

    You all seem to be approaching it from the perspective of an alliance with all 3-4* level players, where the "lockout" is that you run out of nodes to play. That's an issue, for sure -- but it's not the entire problem. The other half of the "lockout" is people having their alliances progress beyond the level at which they can defeat nodes, "locking" them out of the lower-level nodes where their rosters can compete. Having Ultron9 as a pinata doesn't help a 2*-level player who hasn't been able to compete effectively for 4 rounds because the sentries take 4 turns to decimate whatever roster he/she throws up.

    The unlocking of Ultron Prime nodes are already a collective effort where the actions of your alliance-mates benefit you directly. I'm saying that making the progression awards the same solves a lot of these issues (at the cost of the free rider problem).

    Here's the problem with your solution. I'm in a fairly competitive PvE alliance, but I'm a bit further along then a good portion of my alliance (still a 3* transitioner) and I've got a roster that can handle these nodes. I'm currently the only one in my alliance who's hit 1 million and we won't be finishing round 8, hopefully we clear round 7. Now some of my alliance may be scaled out, but several of them have also just not worked as hard as me.

    Your solution probably keeps me from getting all the progression rewards while slackers may get way more than they deserve. How is that fair? The people who can't or don't put up the points still get the opportunity to get 2 SW covers, I think that's more than fair. This is the first true PvE they've ever ran and it's awesome that having an upgraded roster is finally a benefit, 2* players that get scaled out still get a bunch of iso, tokens, and HP which is a pretty good haul. You also have the option of going over to the Heroic PvE and dominating easily, because no one is trying.

    I have no problem with extending points or reducing progressions to a point where everyone that works for it gets what they deserve, but allowing people to sit back and do nothing while reaping the same benefits as the people who truly put in effort is just wrong.
  • The typical 2* roster isn't build to take on long survival nodes. How many 2* rosters do you see that rock a max bullseye? Yet Bullseye is great in these nodes for his protection tiles. Some (albeit few) 2* rosters with enough time can reach 1 million as currently is, as long as they don't get locked out, and use some health packs.

    While I have many underlevelled 3* heroes, I mainly used 2* Cap, MNMags, AWolverine against Ultron, and probably can reach a million if I try (about 850k) now). I primarily used AWolverine/Daken on the essentials, and while I didn't win every round, I did win enough. Bad cascades did me in on Ultron 2 times, carelessness once, experimentation once.