Still Sour

Raffoon

Look, I love playing this game. It's been a source of great happiness over the past year, and I've put money into it a bunch of times to support the developers.

So this new Ultron PVE is announced, and it sounds like a grand old time.

I would LOVE to just drop a Stark salary buying a Hulkbuster when he comes out. There's a part of my brain that's just screaming to do it.

And yet... there's that last 2 months of changes still sitting there. There's the fact that rather than come out and address the community about the changes, and maybe tone back some of the bigger nerfs after hearing feedback, the devs have decided to just ignore it in the hopes it will go away.

Kudos on making a new mode that looks very fun, devs. I could nitpick (QS necessary on 2 nodes and such), but I'm sure it will be great overall, so congrats on that.

It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back.

Arondite

Devs: "We reduced Wolverine's Green to 40% of its original strength and took away some AP Gain on his Black skill."

Players: "Don't you think that might've been a bit heavy-handed?" (Among other comments)

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

Players: "We think he's a bit too weak now..."

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

Pylgrim

Raffoon wrote:

Look, I love playing this game. It's been a source of great happiness over the past year, and I've put money into it a bunch of times to support the developers.

So this new Ultron PVE is announced, and it sounds like a grand old time.

I would LOVE to just drop a Stark salary buying a Hulkbuster when he comes out. There's a part of my brain that's just screaming to do it.

And yet... there's that last 2 months of changes still sitting there. There's the fact that rather than come out and address the community about the changes, and maybe tone back some of the bigger nerfs after hearing feedback, the devs have decided to just ignore it in the hopes it will go away.

Kudos on making a new mode that looks very fun, devs. I could nitpick (QS necessary on 2 nodes and such), but I'm sure it will be great overall, so congrats on that.

It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back.

If you cannot tell that the creation of this "very fun" new mode consumed all the devs' time, who had the hard deadline of the movie release and that's why they couldn't spare time to come sit around while a bunch of angry people spouted bile at them, I don't know what to tell you.

Unknown

I hate what the Thor and Wolverine nerfs mean for the game. Wolverine is still pretty good, mind you--in fact, he still plays very nearly as he used to, just a little less so. Still, the 4* tier is a shakier, weaker place since March. I would be super hesitant about buying any 4* covers until we know it's solidified. Professor X will have to serve as our canary on this one, I fear. Hopefully he'll come out singing on the other side.

Still, I would argue that this game needs cooperative, compelling, high-level content far more than it needs a fleshed-out 4* roster. Ultron could well be the savior of MPQ. You know...like in the comics...

Arondite

Pylgrim wrote:

If you cannot tell that the creation of this "very fun" new mode consumed all the devs' time, who had the hard deadline of the movie release and that's why they couldn't spare time to come sit around while a bunch of angry people spouted bile at them, I don't know what to tell you.

While on the one hand, that's true, there's an entirely separate, second hand that somewhat invalidates the "busy" argument.

We seem to refer to everyone on this site with a Red name as a "Dev", which lumps them all into the same group of people who would be made impressively busy by an upcoming programming advent or task. This isn't entirely accurate - there are Red names on this forum that hold titles such as "Community Manager, D3 Publisher" ; "Associate Producer on Marvel Puzzle Quest" ; and even simply "Demiurge Studios". These titles would suggest that they probably don't have themselves immersed too deeply in programming projects, and are only marginally affected by daunting programming tasks at all. When you consider a title like Community Manager, one might even subscribe to the idea that this forum (and the complaints levied here, be they bitter or enfuried) is actually a significant part of their job. (Think Deej from Bungie - almost his entire job is communicating with the fans on the Destiny Forums).

So my argument would be that - yes, some of the red names have big plates piled high for the forseeable future that would prevent them from replying to questions and comments about an issue like this, but there are others still who have no such barrier that supercedes communication, yet stand equally silent.

Eddiemon

Arondite wrote:

Devs: "We reduced Wolverine's Green to 40% of its original strength and took away some AP Gain on his Black skill."

Players: "Don't you think that might've been a bit heavy-handed?" (Among other comments)

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

Players: "We think he's a bit too weak now..."

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

The problem is that this discussion goes along with the players still continuing to use X Force at a very high rate.

So the words the players are saying don't gel with what the players are actually doing. If X force were 'too weak' or they had gone 'too far' then he would be dropped from teams, like what happened to Ragnarok or Sentry. But he's not, he's still trucking along as a go-to guy.

D3 can either call them out on being dishonest, or just reiterate their point and avoid an emotional fight.

jobob

Eddiemon wrote:

The problem is that this discussion goes along with the players still continuing to use X Force at a very high rate.

So the words the players are saying don't gel with what the players are actually doing. If X force were 'too weak' or they had gone 'too far' then he would be dropped from teams, like what happened to Ragnarok or Sentry. But he's not, he's still trucking along as a go-to guy.

D3 can either call them out on being dishonest, or just reiterate their point and avoid an emotional fight.

To be fair, I'm sure a lot of players are still using X-Force because he's their only leveled 4*. If you only had the time and money to sink into one 4*, it would've been X-Force... I doubt he would be a go-to character to start dropping HP and ISO into if you were just starting the 4* game.

I still use XF and 4hor because they are fully covered and level 230, and because I'm not going to put a lot of time or money into any more 4*s until I feel the devs aren't going to nuke one. I've been burned twice now. Much more effective to pick 3*s to level.

Arondite

Eddiemon wrote:

Arondite wrote:

Devs: "We reduced Wolverine's Green to 40% of its original strength and took away some AP Gain on his Black skill."

Players: "Don't you think that might've been a bit heavy-handed?" (Among other comments)

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

Players: "We think he's a bit too weak now..."

Devs: "Wolverine was too strong, so we made him a bit weaker."

The problem is that this discussion goes along with the players still continuing to use X Force at a very high rate.

So the words the players are saying don't gel with what the players are actually doing. If X force were 'too weak' or they had gone 'too far' then he would be dropped from teams, like what happened to Ragnarok or Sentry. But he's not, he's still trucking along as a go-to guy.

D3 can either call them out on being dishonest, or just reiterate their point and avoid an emotional fight.

Since his nerf, I've only used X Force to feel him out. I've found that there are significant options to replace him that outperform him now.

The only exception I've found - the only situation in which I still use him - are teams where I have a single priority target and feel comfortable piddling through the rest of the team. He still excels at that, at least, but he's miserable in all other regards.

Raffoon

Pylgrim wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

Look, I love playing this game. It's been a source of great happiness over the past year, and I've put money into it a bunch of times to support the developers.

So this new Ultron PVE is announced, and it sounds like a grand old time.

I would LOVE to just drop a Stark salary buying a Hulkbuster when he comes out. There's a part of my brain that's just screaming to do it.

And yet... there's that last 2 months of changes still sitting there. There's the fact that rather than come out and address the community about the changes, and maybe tone back some of the bigger nerfs after hearing feedback, the devs have decided to just ignore it in the hopes it will go away.

Kudos on making a new mode that looks very fun, devs. I could nitpick (QS necessary on 2 nodes and such), but I'm sure it will be great overall, so congrats on that.

It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back.

If you cannot tell that the creation of this "very fun" new mode consumed all the devs' time, who had the hard deadline of the movie release and that's why they couldn't spare time to come sit around while a bunch of angry people spouted bile at them, I don't know what to tell you.

It seems like they found the time to make some giant nerfs and change the hp for most of the characters. Perhaps the part they didn't have time for was testing or considering the consequences of such changes, then?

MarvelDestiny

I sympathize with those burned by the nerfs. To have put that much money into a character, ~$20 per cover, only to have the investment nerf-bombed into obsolescence is nigh-unforgivable. I was not personally affected by the xf/4thor nerfs but they taught me the foolishness of paying in this game.

I have put approx $140 into mpq, all in HP and most within the first few months of playing. A part of me thought it wasteful to sink even $20 into the game but I enjoyed mpq and wanted to support the devs. Before I understood better I used a lot of my HP 'fortune' to buy heroic tokens (wish I'd saved it all for my roster and shields, I'd probably still be under $100 total if I had). Live and learn, eyyh?

So I think everyone needs to ask themselves what this game is worth to them. Are you willing to play through all the trials & tribulations as changes are pushed through? Are you willing to hand over your hard earned cash for benefits that could vanish tomorrow?

As for me, even with all the **** I still like the game. Like Raffoon, I'm bitter about some of these changes and nearly quit over the never-ending crazy mmr/scaling changes and back to back pves. I just wasn't enjoying the game anymore but I wanted to see what the devs would do and I'm glad I hung around. The AvU event sounds awesome and some of the mmr nonsense has calmed down. I'm hopeful d3 will continue improving.

However, I will NEVER buy a cover. It's wasted money. Sure, it will take me a lot longer to cover my roster but better that then watching my investment get flushed down the toilet for the sake of game balance.

Eddiemon

MarvelDestiny wrote:

So I think everyone needs to ask themselves what this game is worth to them. Are you willing to play through all the trials & tribulations as changes are pushed through? Are you willing to hand over your hard earned cash for benefits that could vanish tomorrow?

I think you have left out the 'are you willing to throw some money at the developer for making the game you have played for X months and so that the game will continue. People get so caught up in what *extra* am I getting for my money that they forget that there is this whole game they play that these people produced.

However, I will NEVER buy a cover. It's wasted money. Sure, it will take me a lot longer to cover my roster but better that then watching my investment get flushed down the toilet for the sake of game balance.

If I am throwing 20 bucks at them in thanks for the 2 months of entertainment, it really doesn't concern me what I spend that on. I don't get caught up in the whole 'cover is worth $X' debate because they can't be converted into cash again. They are worth nothing in the long run.

I've been playing now for close to 18 months and have probably thrown $250 at the game. I wouldn't be able to get that amount of entertainment at that price many other places. The covers, shields, HP and entry fees I got are immaterial.

evil panda

$250 is a massive amount of money to throw into a video game. That may be the new normal for freemium, but that's a more recent thing. I've spent more than that (willingly) but I would guess that most of us did it to get something in return that had some expectation of sustained value, not just to support the devs (devs are doing just fine).

My second point is, we the forum base are our own worst enemy with this nerf tinykitty - have you guys read all the calls for nerfing professor x and iron fist? The body wasn't even cold when those started!

Unknown

To be fair, the nerf calls for Iron Fist started before he was released, and will continue until his purple is even remotely in line with any other ability of its type. Professor X just happens to be both powerful and cool as hell, so he'll get nerfed 'cause that's what happens to cool, powerful characters.

Raffoon

Eddiemon wrote:

MarvelDestiny wrote:

So I think everyone needs to ask themselves what this game is worth to them. Are you willing to play through all the trials & tribulations as changes are pushed through? Are you willing to hand over your hard earned cash for benefits that could vanish tomorrow?

I think you have left out the 'are you willing to throw some money at the developer for making the game you have played for X months and so that the game will continue. People get so caught up in what *extra* am I getting for my money that they forget that there is this whole game they play that these people produced.

That's absolutely true. On top of the direct coolness/benefit that is gained in game, a huge portion of the decision on whether or not to spend money on the game is a desire to support the developers.

I had a desire to support the developers before, and have dropped hundreds on the game doing so. Based on their recent changes, taken in context with their track record of balance changes over the past year, I no longer have that desire.

They could have easily avoided this situation by taking a more gradual approach towards balancing their characters that needed to come down a notch, or even perhaps further discussing the logic/math that would conclude in such massive changes being necessary.

The current changes stand as a testament to the fact that they don't give 2 steaming piles of **** about the time/money/effort people have spent on their game. People convert large amounts of time/money/effort into covers for characters, and then that time/money/effort investment is markedly diminished when abilities across 4* characters are cut by more than half.

It's fine if they don't care about the time/money/effort people have spent, the negative impact of their changes, or about keeping players happy. However, I will be reserving my support and money for developers that do. What's even worse is they keep coming into the forums telling us that they're listening, and then make such changes anyway despite feedback. They're pissing on our heads and telling us that it's raining.

Edit: Hell, come to think of it, they're pissing on our heads, telling us that it's raining, and then trying to sell us an umbrella that will dissolve the next time they feel like pissing again.

Der_Lex

evil panda wrote:

My second point is, we the forum base are our own worst enemy with this nerf tinykitty - have you guys read all the calls for nerfing professor x and iron fist? The body wasn't even cold when those started!

I agree that this seems to have created an atmosphere on here where if people have trouble beating a character, they immediately cry foul and ask for nerfs.

I didn't have an issue with the Ragnarok and Spidey nerfs, because they were obviously game-breaking. Sentry was a bit more debatable, but I was still on board with that (of course the downside is that all these characters were over-nerfed too and I now have a L115 Spidey and a maxed Sentry collecting virtual dust).

The Thoress nerf I could more or less understand because they were looking at charged tiles at a mechanic and didn't want a character to be able to generate that many on her own... but they should have upped her damage output even more to compensate, and definitely shouldn't have made her yellow weaker.

Xforce, though... Black was his most 'broken' skill, and I'm fine with the way it was changed. But green... I simply have no idea why green was even touched. It was powerful, but nowhere near overpowered.

Both IF and Prof X already had nerfs. They're both strong, versatile characters... and I think the game needs more of those, not less.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

Look, I love playing this game. It's been a source of great happiness over the past year, and I've put money into it a bunch of times to support the developers.

So this new Ultron PVE is announced, and it sounds like a grand old time.

I would LOVE to just drop a Stark salary buying a Hulkbuster when he comes out. There's a part of my brain that's just screaming to do it.

And yet... there's that last 2 months of changes still sitting there. There's the fact that rather than come out and address the community about the changes, and maybe tone back some of the bigger nerfs after hearing feedback, the devs have decided to just ignore it in the hopes it will go away.

Kudos on making a new mode that looks very fun, devs. I could nitpick (QS necessary on 2 nodes and such), but I'm sure it will be great overall, so congrats on that.

It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back.

If you cannot tell that the creation of this "very fun" new mode consumed all the devs' time, who had the hard deadline of the movie release and that's why they couldn't spare time to come sit around while a bunch of angry people spouted bile at them, I don't know what to tell you.

Perhaps you skipped over, what I believe was, the most important part of the OPs post:

"It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back."

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

Perhaps you skipped over, what I believe was, the most important part of the OPs post:

"It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back."

Yeah, I also noticed that he thinks it only costs $100 to max out a 4*...

Unknown

shade_tree wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

Perhaps you skipped over, what I believe was, the most important part of the OPs post:

"It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back."

Yeah, I also noticed that he thinks it only costs $100 to max out a 4*...

This one may, if we're seeing anniversary odds again.

Unknown

Put the work in, put the $$ in, watch it disappear. That's MPQ.

Raffoon

Ben Grimm wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

Perhaps you skipped over, what I believe was, the most important part of the OPs post:

"It doesn't change the fact that the last 2 months of changes happened, and it doesn't change the fact that I've lost any desire to spend money on the game. Like I said, I'd really love to just drop 100 dollars on maxing out a Hulkbuster if only for the coolness of the character. But knowing that if he's any good he'll always face the specter of being nerfed to near-unusable levels at a whim just kills it for me. The last 2 months of changes have eroded my trust in the developers to the point that I'm not sure they can ever win it back."

Yeah, I also noticed that he thinks it only costs $100 to max out a 4*...

This one may, if we're seeing anniversary odds again.

I was just going for a rough estimate, hehe. I mean, being optimistic, it can work out like that. 3 covers from progression, maybe 2 from tokens if lucky, then the other 8 are covered on a stark salary. Or, if not, wait for a sale to buy the Stark if you don't end up with 2 off of tokens. I will admit that technically it's a bit more

MarvelDestiny

evil panda wrote:

$250 is a massive amount of money to throw into a video game. That may be the new normal for freemium, but that's a more recent thing. I've spent more than that (willingly) but I would guess that most of us did it to get something in return that had some expectation of sustained value, not just to support the devs (devs are doing just fine).

My second point is, we the forum base are our own worst enemy with this nerf tinykitty - have you guys read all the calls for nerfing professor x and iron fist? The body wasn't even cold when those started!

Yep! I couldn't believe it when I saw the cry to nerf PX. And IF already received his round at the nerf bat, thank you very much. It's enough to make you scream... KAHHNNN!!!