what people getting real refunds are saying...

Unknown

Tannen wrote:

Couple of points...

1 - You realise that you've just justified breaking the law because a company doesn't have a refund policy? This is almost as bad as "This person was in my house, so I shot him dead. Self defence, haha." You're not seeking a refund, you're literally recommending people break a very well defined law. This is 100% illegal. You're not in the right here, as much as you want to believe that you are. A refund is something completely different to what you're recommending.

2 - That old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right?" it's true. Even if D3're breaking the law by not having a refund policy (and I'm not saying that they are) that absolutely, unequivically DOES NOT give you the right to defraud the company. IF they're breaking the law in your country, take them to court. If you can't be bothered to do that yourself, find a lawyer that will take your case pro-bono and start a class action suit. Don't recommend people break the law just because you're butt-hurt. I guarentee that fraud of pretty much all types are illegal in your country, if you're part of the EU.

3 - I suspect that you need to look up chargeback fraud. Here, I'll provide a handy link that I spent all of 2 seconds finding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback_fraud. Also, because I think you're unlikely to click that, here's the jist. Someone purchases online goods and then calls their bank and afterwards and cancels the transaction. The merchant has then lost their product and is also stuck with the 'chargeback' fee. Sound familar? Of particular note is this line -- "One method of combating friendly fraud is to create a feature in the product that checks in with the merchant's database. If a chargeback is issued, the merchant can tell the product to suspend service. This tactic will also work for digital subscription services or any other online product that requires updates or logins. Unfortunately, however, the merchant will usually still be charged a fee for incurring a chargeback, so this is not a complete solution." -- so yes, you are commiting fraud. A well known type of fraud that absolutely should get you banned + criminal charges.

Cheers.

1. LMFAO breaking the law? Asking for a refund is breaking the law? What the hell are you talking about?

Fraud is seeking to obtain money or advantage by deception... it's not bloody fraud. It's never been fraud, it will never be fraud. They are not breaking any bloody laws. SO i'm not encouraging breaking the law... you are talking drivel.

2. As I pointed out... D3 are not breaking any consumer laws because you NEVER BOUGHT ANYTHING FROM D3... your transaction is with Google/Apple/Steam. THAT is why those are the ppl you go to for refunds and presumably THAT is why D3 don't have a refund policy. You get money back from the person you gave it to... not the person they then passed it on to. Have you somehow found a way to purchase your HP/ISO from D3 directly?

3. Ppl aren't doing credit card chargebacks. They are approaching the company they did business with for a refund. IT'S NOT THE SAME. They are following a defined procedure set out by those companies and it is up to THOSE COMPANIES if they get a refund. If they did do a chargeback it's STILL not done to D3... it's being done to apple/google/steam and they would be the ppl to follow it up.

So... NOT FRAUD. I don't know how much clearer it can be. So no.... no-one is going to face criminal charges and I am not encouraging ppl to break the law because they are NOT breaking the law.

How anyone can consider sending an EMAIL to customer support to request a refund as a criminal act is beyond me......

JamieMadrox

I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

Money was spent for HP; HP was given. Asking for your money back from your credit card company is fraud because you received what you paid for in the condition that you expected it to arrive in. What you do with it from there is up to you. It's no secret, especially to anyone on these forums for any period of time or who play games with IAPs, that there is almost always no way to reverse IAPs.

Both Apple and Google require you to first contact the company that you purchased the game from to request a refund. Lots of people have not been doing this. In fact, the now removed thread about this was encouraging people to not bother contacting D# and just say you did. This is fraud.

In either of the above cases you're committing credit card fraud and should be happy that you're only being sandboxed and not being reported to authorities.

liminal_lad

bonfire01 wrote:

Wow... someone who very vocally bashed ppl for saying D3 was committing "robbery" because it's factually incorrect then claims other ppl are committing "fraud" which is equally incorrect.... that's some interesting double standards.

I will ask this of ppl claiming others getting refunds are "morally wrong".... what is the D3 refunds procedure?

It's amazing how the Internet turns everyone into a lawyer... maybe we can save the rhetoric and just address our opinions rather than accusing people of committing crimes?

liminal_lad

Jamie Madrox wrote:

In either of the above cases you're committing credit card fraud and should be happy that you're only being sandboxed and not being reported to authorities.

I would LOVE to see the press if they did that. "Video game company reports disgruntled consumers to state and federal authorities." I'm sure that would go well for all involved.

Unknown

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

Money was spent for HP; HP was given. Asking for your money back from your credit card company is fraud because you received what you paid for in the condition that you expected it to arrive in. What you do with it from there is up to you. It's no secret, especially to anyone on these forums for any period of time or who play games with IAPs, that there is almost always no way to reverse IAPs.

Both Apple and Google require you to first contact the company that you purchased the game from to request a refund. Lots of people have not been doing this. In fact, the now removed thread about this was encouraging people to not bother contacting D# and just say you did. This is fraud.

In either of the above cases you're committing credit card fraud and should be happy that you're only being sandboxed and not being reported to authorities.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one (in my best Lumberg voice)

Requesting a refund is not fraud.

Phaserhawk

If you request a refund, then any ISO, HP and covers you won with X-Force should all be returned as well. He was an investment and he paid off tremendously. You're mad your toy got taken away, and you can feel that way, but you still have all the memories and good times with said toy, focus on that.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

If you request a refund, then any ISO, HP and covers you won with X-Force should all be returned as well. He was an investment and he paid off tremendously. You're mad your toy got taken away, and you can feel that way, but you still have all the memories and good times with said toy, focus on that.

If D3 were to sandbox someone for breaking their Ts and Cs then fine... they are (as far as I know) completely within their right to do so.

They are probably equally within their rights to deny ongoing service to someone.

Ideally they would have a system to remove the items the person refunded, even if that was a rollback to date of purchase... they don't seem to though and that is their issue, not the consumers'.

Still doesn't make it fraud though and all this talk about it being credit card fraud to request a refund from google/apple is getting silly. It's like you are saying those companies are being intentionally complicit in a crime.... do you realise how silly that sounds?

(edited cause I can't type sandbox properly (apparently))

Unknown

LOL claiming it's CC fraud. Fanboy much?

I agree that if you get a refund you should be banned/sandboxed/ whatever though. Seems fair enough. Let's both parties part and go their separate ways.

Unknown

I've worked at a domain registry now for the past 15 years. If you want to buy http://www.ihated3.com, you come to us (or one of our sister companies) to register it. All of this is done online. When customers do chargebacks against domain registrations/renewals, we are contacted by our credit card company to advise us on the chargeback. Our internal Fraud Department can easily go back to the credit card company after the chargeback has been done, explain why the chargeback was not a valid refund (hint, it's all in the terms of service you agree to when you register), and then we seize the domain name until the refunded registration runs out (which means if you registered it for 10 years, and did a chargeback, no one gets that domain name for the next 10 years). The credit card company will then go back to the customer, reverse the refund, and then wreck their credit history by showing fraudulent chargebacks. No one, so far as I'm aware, is prosecuted. But good luck trying to explain your bad credit away when you can't get a loan for a car.

JamieMadrox

MikeHock wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

Money was spent for HP; HP was given. Asking for your money back from your credit card company is fraud because you received what you paid for in the condition that you expected it to arrive in. What you do with it from there is up to you. It's no secret, especially to anyone on these forums for any period of time or who play games with IAPs, that there is almost always no way to reverse IAPs.

Both Apple and Google require you to first contact the company that you purchased the game from to request a refund. Lots of people have not been doing this. In fact, the now removed thread about this was encouraging people to not bother contacting D# and just say you did. This is fraud.

In either of the above cases you're committing credit card fraud and should be happy that you're only being sandboxed and not being reported to authorities.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one (in my best Lumberg voice)

Requesting a refund is not fraud.

You're right. Requesting a refund is not fraud. Requesting a refund and lying to get it is. D3 had a refund policy for changed characters in place. Sell it for the increased ISO/HP. It's not a full refund, and I don't think it's a particularly good one, but its the one they have and the one we have to live with.

The issue is that people are not contacting D3 and asking for refunds. They are going to Google and Apple and requesting refunds. Both Apple and Google require you to first try to work it out with D3. If you don't and tell then that you did, that's fraud.

I think a lot of the issue here is that people are equating the money they are spending with what they are using their HP for. Unfortunately you're not spending your money on X-Force covers or TGT covers. You're spending it on HP. HP you received as expected and then spent. That's where this argument ends. You spent money on HP. You got HP. What you chose to spend that HP on is your business.

Switchman wrote:

LOL claiming it's CC fraud. Fanboy much?

Lying to reverse a charge on a credit card is fraud.

Unknown

How is it lying. People spent $100's of dollars only to have it be completely wasted weeks later. If you think that's ok, feel free to walk up to that person in RL and reach into their pocket yourself.

People felt completely cheated and received an entirely different product after the purchase was finalized. I agree that if you are still playing after the refund you are just as scummy and that is def wrong.

You're getting cute with your loophole thinking. The only reason to buy HP was for Xforce.

Unknown

Tannen wrote:

"Real refunds"? No, you're committing credit-card fraud. The fact that you feel justified doing it makes it much, much worse, because you'll actively work to convince people that it's okay to do. Momentary anger does not give you the right to defraud others.

You spent your money, you got your hps. That's where the buck stops. Literally. You can't claim that your money was spent on something that changed. You ponied up for hp, D3 gave you hp. You can spend that HP on many items in game. They don't know what you plan on buying with it. If you feel remorse about how you spent those hps, that's still not an excuse to be an ****. Many people have felt buyer's remorse before, and will feel it again in the future. More importantly you cannot use buyer's remorse as an excuse to keep the items that you bought and just reverse the charges on your credit card. That, by definition, is fraud.

The morally bankrupt that get a 'refund' and then continue playing the game deserve to be banned. All of them. No exceptions. If you get a 'refund' via a third party you've pretty much stated that you don't want to work with D3 at all, so don't try to cry foul if they ban you. I wouldn't blink an eye if someone did, eventually, pursue everyone that did it for credit card fraud -- because that's what you're doing, and someone (ironically, it's not D3, because they can probably claim these fraudulent claim-backs on insurance) is actually out of pocket over your reversed charges -- but that will probably end up being whichever company is funding your rage-inspired crimes.

As a side note, I must admit that I find it interesting that most people on the forums will exclaim loudly that people shouldn't cheat on the game, but are more than willing to tell them how to steal money in real life. Why not just post how to get infinite hp on the forums? Doing that'll get you sand-boxed as well, but no-one will claim that you have the moral high ground. As a side note, that infinite-hp-post will also be removed by the forum mods, because leaving it up would implicitly tell new forum-goers that they don't mind if you do it.

In summary: stop exclaiming that you're getting "real refunds". You're not. You're fraudulently obtaining money from someone (an insurance company, somewhere, hates you, I have no doubt) with false claims and should potentially face criminal charges.

Cheers.

Talk about dramatic. And here I was thinking people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I'm not arguing against what you're saying, just how you're saying it. You sound angrier then the people that are angry.

Unknown

double post

JamieMadrox

Switchman wrote:

How is it lying. People spent $100's of dollars only to have it be completely wasted weeks later. If you think that's ok, feel free to walk up to that person in RL and reach into their pocket yourself.

People felt completely cheated and received an entirely different product after the purchase was finalized. I agree that if you are still playing after the refund you are just as scummy and that is def wrong.

You're getting cute with your loophole thinking. The only reason to buy HP was for Xforce.

There are plenty of reasons to buy HP. Personally I spent 0HP on X-Force. I spent a fair amount on Sentry and TGT, but in both cases feel that I got more than my money's worth. Regardless, I spent money and received HP. That's not a loophole, it's a fact. This situation is no different than people who buy HP and spend it on cover packs and then complain they didn't get the one cover they really wanted. Nobody defends them, but their usage of HP is no less valid.

I'm not saying that the changes don't suck, they do. I'm also not saying that the offered compensation is good, it's not. What I am saying is that lying to get a refund when you're not happy with what is being offered is illegal, because it is.

Unknown

Jamie Madrox wrote:

You're right. Requesting a refund is not fraud. Requesting a refund and lying to get it is. D3 had a refund policy for changed characters in place. Sell it for the increased ISO/HP. It's not a full refund, and I don't think it's a particularly good one, but its the one they have and the one we have to live with.

The issue is that people are not contacting D3 and asking for refunds. They are going to Google and Apple and requesting refunds. Both Apple and Google require you to first try to work it out with D3. If you don't and tell then that you did, that's fraud.

I think a lot of the issue here is that people are equating the money they are spending with what they are using their HP for. Unfortunately you're not spending your money on X-Force covers or TGT covers. You're spending it on HP. HP you received as expected and then spent. That's where this argument ends. You spent money on HP. You got HP. What you chose to spend that HP on is your business.

I'm beginning to despair here. A refund is returning WHAT YOU PAID. If you are seeking a refund for a cash purchase then you go to the person you made the cash purchase with. The fact you can sell a character off for in game currency, even if they enhance the rate is IRRELEVANT.

The transaction is someone handing over MONEY to google/apple. The refund they are seeking is for THAT specific transaction. IF someone were to claim to have contacted D3 when they hadn't that is an issue (of sorts) however they can simply state that D3 do not offer cash refunds (how could they... you never paid them any cash) and they are seeking a cash refund and that is literally all there is to it.

Then apple/google consider the case by their own procedures and that is that. Nothing else is remotely relevant.

IF and I mean IF your statement about paying for HP was remotely correct then why are any refunds being given out? Wouldn't D3 just contact apple/google and say that HP was bought, not these things your customers are saying we're changed so no need for any more refunds and go beat up on those guys who got them? Why isn't that occurring? Why aren't Google and Apple now just sending out blanket, pre-formatted (with different names) EMAILS to say that you bought HP, you got HP, that's all there is to it?

Maybe you're wrong?

JVReal

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on the internet.

I do not believe that requesting refunds is fraud. To request a refund for X-Force, receive it, then continue to use it would be ethically wrong, but not fraud.

I firmly believe that if you request a refund for X-Force, you get your refund, D3 should sandbox you until you sell your X-Force. They cannot remove objects from your inventory, bugs can, but they can't, which is typical for an app. Once you sell X-Force, then they can move you out of the sandbox.

I go to Taco Bell and order a taco supreme, it's been a while so I forgot they include tomatoes in those and I hate tomatoes. I take a bite, get a tomato. Yuck! I go up to the counter and ask, "I forgot these have tomatoes in them, I meant to order them without tomatoes, can I get a new one?". They give me a new one. What do I do with the old one? They can't take it back. They are not allowed. Do I eat it anyway? Do I throw it away? Do I give it away? If tomatoes bothered me enough to ask for a new one, I should not eat it. But will Taco Bell really care if I eat it? No.
They don't have to give me a new one for free, but its good customer service. They could tell me No and say I'm free to buy another one, at which point I will ask for a refund and leave the taco on the counter. Did I commit fraud because I took a bite and didn't like it and got my money back? Nope. Would it be fraud if I got my money back, grabbed the taco and ran out of the door? Nope, i'd be a jerk and probably not allowed back into that Taco Bell, but no police would chase me, no warrant would be issued.

As far as claiming the transaction was solely for HP or virtual currency and virtual currency was provided, I'm pretty sure that won't hold water. There is no option to buy items in game with regular currency, thus the only way to buy in game items is with in-game currency. You can't play the game with in-game currency only what it can purchase. Nobody spends cash for HP just for having HP. They buy HP because it's the only way to get other things in-game. This is why most app based games give you in game currency, so they can handle refunds on their end by crediting you back the in game currency that you spent. If they first refuse to do that, then the next step is to seek a refund for actual currency.

In the previous game I played, the company was so bad at their programming, the stats on cards were never what they were advertised to be (they'd end up lower). People would play for the reward, max it, and find that the stats were not as advertised. They would submit claims to the game company first, and sometimes the game company would fix the card, sometimes they wouldn't. The worst was changing the stats on a card mid event. Then this card that was worth winning suddenly isn't worth winning, you didn't finish the event yet, so you didn't get the card, but you've already spent money and resources to get this far after 3 days of a 6 day event... now what?
They also had a habit of lowering the stats on a reward card days after it was issued as a reward (for which many people spent hundreds of dollars to win). Many people did go to Apple and Google, received their refunds and were advised to stop playing that game and that no more refunds would be given for that game.

In summary, the ethical thing to do is to sell your x-force if you get a refund for it. If you keep it, its up to D3 to enforce any penalties upon you for doing so. If you are so dissatisfied with the game as to seek a full refund for all the money you ever spent, then sell all your stuff and uninstall the game.

Stop crying fraud and worry about your own ethics, and let D3 police their own game.

Unknown

Situations like this are tough because each side actually has some good (not including the angrier, more provocative/flamey comments) points to argue.

It's true that you are in essence buying HP, and you got exactly as much of it as you paid for.

It's also true that you bought what you bought for a reason, and that reason was the expectation of building something you would ultimately expect to own in the form you built.

It's also true that the usual terms for digital properties (that we ALL knowingly agree to at the outset) state that you will never actually own anything you pay for.

All the over-the-top stuff aside, the core argument is remarkably nuanced, to the point where "agreeing to disagree" seems like the most reasonable choice. That said, I would personally hope that people who get refunds are not able to keep their properties, because that seems fairly black-and-white. If you ask for a refund, you obviously don't leave with the refunded item in hand...

DBC

atomzed

_RiO_ wrote:

I missed this before but FYI: that kind of contract term could probably be shredded by 93/13/EEC on the basis that it is an unfair term.

A type of contract term that makes it so that a paid for product legally never becomes yours and can be altered or taken away at the original seller's discretion sounds imbalanced enough to be covered. It just has never come to a court case before. That's because the typical investment anyone puts into a game is low enough that the loss is better treated as a write-off than facing the expenses of going to court. However it's somewhat unavoidable that eventually one company is going to tick off the wrong person; one with deep enough pockets and enough moral outrage...

I am not a lawyer, so i am not going to try to argue about the technicalities of whether its legal or not.

I am going to appeal to common sense as to why the EULA is necessary for any company that has an online persistent game.

Let's go with the logic that 'buying a cover' equates to owning the character in that specific form.

Let's say that I bought covers for Beast (yeah, its an extreme example, i know). When I woke up tomorrow, I realised that your beast blue ability has been buffed, costing only 6 AP now!

But damn, i am pissed about the change. I bought the blue covers because i like to see the CD activating, and no blue special tiles come up. I enjoy seeing the uselessness of the ability, and derive 'entertainment value' out of the useless blue ability. And now that it's changed, i am no longer deriving entertainment value out of it.

Without the EULA or the assumption that the company owns the content and can amend it accordingly to their plans, I can then request for a refund... for any change. This also could mean that if i want to sue the company, i can sue them for buffing Beast.

For that matter, any change to a published content, can result in customers asking for a refund, or sueing the company. This includes:-
- Change to sound file: Remember the blood curdling war cry of the She-Hulk green? It has been changed.... and damn, i paid for the green for that sound wave, and i want it back! Damn, i like the original Squirrel girl demonic squirrels sound... it got changed and i want it back!

- Change to cover art:- Why was my Starlord cover changed? I like the old cover... and i want it back now!

The examples were deliberately meant to be extreme, but i wanted to point out that the EULA is important because it allows for changes, tweaks to be made for the betterment of the game.

Some may say that the changes to Xforce and GT shows a lack of proper play testing, and that they shouldn't release it in the first place. I agree that more play testing is good, but one benefit to an online game is that the company can make amendments to poor system designs/ poor decisions quickly. If they are not allowed to change the game at all, then this one advantage is taken away from the company.

TL; DR, the EULA that the company owns all the content in the game, is a necessary condition for the companies to tweak the game for better gaming. We can argue whether the company is mis-using the EULA and is evil in nerfing the good characters, but i feel that we cannot dispute the importance of allowing the gaming company to make changes to the game when they deem necessary.

JamieMadrox

bonfire01 wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

You're right. Requesting a refund is not fraud. Requesting a refund and lying to get it is. D3 had a refund policy for changed characters in place. Sell it for the increased ISO/HP. It's not a full refund, and I don't think it's a particularly good one, but its the one they have and the one we have to live with.

The issue is that people are not contacting D3 and asking for refunds. They are going to Google and Apple and requesting refunds. Both Apple and Google require you to first try to work it out with D3. If you don't and tell then that you did, that's fraud.

I think a lot of the issue here is that people are equating the money they are spending with what they are using their HP for. Unfortunately you're not spending your money on X-Force covers or TGT covers. You're spending it on HP. HP you received as expected and then spent. That's where this argument ends. You spent money on HP. You got HP. What you chose to spend that HP on is your business.

I'm beginning to despair here. A refund is returning WHAT YOU PAID. If you are seeking a refund for a cash purchase then you go to the person you made the cash purchase with. The fact you can sell a character off for in game currency, even if they enhance the rate is IRRELEVANT.

The transaction is someone handing over MONEY to google/apple. The refund they are seeking is for THAT specific transaction. IF someone were to claim to have contacted D3 when they hadn't that is an issue (of sorts) however they can simply state that D3 do not offer cash refunds (how could they... you never paid them any cash) and they are seeking a cash refund and that is literally all there is to it.

Then apple/google consider the case by their own procedures and that is that. Nothing else is remotely relevant.

IF and I mean IF your statement about paying for HP was remotely correct then why are any refunds being given out? Wouldn't D3 just contact apple/google and say that HP was bought, not these things your customers are saying we're changed so no need for any more refunds and go beat up on those guys who got them? Why isn't that occurring? Why aren't Google and Apple now just sending out blanket, pre-formatted (with different names) EMAILS to say that you bought HP, you got HP, that's all there is to it?

Maybe you're wrong?

Here's the thing. Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard/whomever have no way of/don't bother checking with a vendor to see if the refund request is valid. They just refund you or not depending on what you tell them and their policies. Vendors don't generally contact the payment provider until AFTER they receive the notice that a charge back occurred on a case by case basis because some of those refund requests may actually be valid. That said, D3 doesn't HAVE to contact Apple or Google and tell them the chargeback was invalid, etc. If they did it's a pretty big black mark on your credit record (as mentioned before). So instead they are just sandboxing the players, effectively taking back the product they are getting the refund for.

Would it be nice for them to be able to go through everyone's accounts and completely roll back all the HP spent, etc? Sure. It's incredibly unreasonable though. What about all of the rewards you got because of having that character? And all of the things that you spent all of those rewards on? What people are asking for is not nearly as simple as they think it is; nor as reasonable.

Unknown

Jamie Madrox wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

Money was spent for HP; HP was given. Asking for your money back from your credit card company is fraud because you received what you paid for in the condition that you expected it to arrive in. What you do with it from there is up to you. It's no secret, especially to anyone on these forums for any period of time or who play games with IAPs, that there is almost always no way to reverse IAPs.

Both Apple and Google require you to first contact the company that you purchased the game from to request a refund. Lots of people have not been doing this. In fact, the now removed thread about this was encouraging people to not bother contacting D# and just say you did. This is fraud.

In either of the above cases you're committing credit card fraud and should be happy that you're only being sandboxed and not being reported to authorities.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one (in my best Lumberg voice)

Requesting a refund is not fraud.

You're right. Requesting a refund is not fraud. Requesting a refund and lying to get it is. D3 had a refund policy for changed characters in place. Sell it for the increased ISO/HP. It's not a full refund, and I don't think it's a particularly good one, but its the one they have and the one we have to live with.

The issue is that people are not contacting D3 and asking for refunds. They are going to Google and Apple and requesting refunds. Both Apple and Google require you to first try to work it out with D3. If you don't and tell then that you did, that's fraud.

I think a lot of the issue here is that people are equating the money they are spending with what they are using their HP for. Unfortunately you're not spending your money on X-Force covers or TGT covers. You're spending it on HP. HP you received as expected and then spent. That's where this argument ends. You spent money on HP. You got HP. What you chose to spend that HP on is your business.

Switchman wrote:

LOL claiming it's CC fraud. Fanboy much?

Lying to reverse a charge on a credit card is fraud.

On this forum, I have always instructed anyone looking for a refund to first contact D3 to try and resolve the issue before going to a service provider, so I am aware of what is considered the proper procedure. While I do understand that lying to reverse a charge is fraud, contacting your service provider without contacting D3 first is not fraud. If a service provider chooses to issue a refund without asking for, or obtaining evidence that a resolution was attempted, that is not the customers issue, and I do not see how that would be considered fraud.