A post supporting the MMR change

KrazyKeylime

this change did what 1/2 of what we were suggesting, split the tiers and split rewards, they split the tiers fine they just need to adjust the rewards this can be done by scaling back the progressing rewards but that can promote as 2* -> 4* progression as 2* can stealth climb and shield hop for an easy 4*. they can change the point system so that 166+ teams give an extra 20-30 points but this can make joining late be so much more profitable they can climb super fast and possibly get the 1000 point mark. not sure how to fix this but it looks better in the new event.

NighteyesGrisu

I feel, that the entire discussion is going the wrong direction. The main problem with the new PVP system IMHO isn't the matchmaking itself. Sure, opponents after the seeds are harder than they used to be, but I can cope with that, and I'm sure so can most others. The main problem is that as a result of that you will be hit way earlier than before, making it impossible (or better pointless) to climb early (unless you really are a big shield spender). That way, you might as well make the pvps onle 1d long....

evil panda

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Yea that's a thing. Perhaps you should play the whole event. They are 2.5 days long you know, not 12h long.

Or start running "Herbert The Marshmallow Lord", a level 400 secret character I got by using the konami code during the very first Hulk event who will pretty much ensure that nobody ever attacks you, although that'd probably get me sandboxed.

??

puppychow

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

I feel, that the entire discussion is going the wrong direction. The main problem with the new PVP system IMHO isn't the matchmaking itself. Sure, opponents after the seeds are harder than they used to be, but I can cope with that, and I'm sure so can most others. The main problem is that as a result of that you will be hit way earlier than before, making it impossible (or better pointless) to climb early (unless you really are a big shield spender). That way, you might as well make the pvps onle 1d long....

Frankly, I view these changes as another nudge by D3 to get players to: a) buy health packs; b) shield earlier. It's all about increasing revenue.

cletus1985

Azoic wrote:

I've seen a lot of players complaining about the latest change in the MMR. I've seen posts complaining about hitting "the wall" right after seed nodes. Do these folks not realize that they are part of the wall, so it should not matter?

You are in the same boat as the 94 players. We down the seeds, and the teams we face are 94s--equal levels. So how does this change screw you over? We all have to fight folks our own levels until we merge in the high-end. I used to see some players in the 40s/60s and whatnot, but now 94s mixed with up to 130 (I did see an odd 220 thrown in).

I think this encourages roster diversity. So you can't walk all over 94s to an easy 600+ points...now you get hurt (like we do/did). So you might not be able to use your favorite team the whole time. You might have to switch it up depending on who you are facing.

The 3* progression reward was entirely out of reach before, which is ironic since the 2* transitioner is the one that actually needs the cover at 900 (now 800) points. Now? I was just about to earn it and got hit for a good amount. And that's fine...I know that it is actually possible to get that high without hitting a wall at 500+.

Let me fill you in on exactly what you're looking forward to, since I'm in the 2-3 transition phase. I suffered getting nailed by the superior teams with my 2* roster and finally crossed that threshold. I have 3 3* at level 140 (none max covered), which had finally gotten me to a point where I could hit 600 pts without being gangbanged by the higher ups, which usually got me top 100 placement. I also have a few 3*'s above level 100 (again I have no 3* max covered), which I could use along with some max 2* to make my climb. So I was looking at top 100 placement fairly often before the change.

Now with the change here's how it works. I run my score up to above 500 in a couple of runs, healthpacks gone because there was no easy matches, I'm now getting gangbanged by all the 3* teams because there are no easier matches. My score is now around 300 and my rank is in the 300's. I say ok, i'll hit it hard and make up the points to regain top 100 (LOL, boy was I stupid), I get my score close to 500 again where i'm now completely out of healthpacks and being hit for more points than I can win. I saw a #98 placement for all of 30 seconds before I was knocked back into reality again. End of the story, now having a roster further progressed offers no competitive advantage, so enjoy it while you can because being one step ahead of you progression wise tells me that there is no light at the end of the tunnel and your smug self accomplishment will diminish shortly as you begin to understand how stupid this matchmaking system really is.

At the end of the day I see a few real truths that should be addressed and I agree with 100%

1) Too many 2* rosters feel like they're entitled to top rewards, even though they've done nothing to earn them. (It sucks, I get it, been there done that just like everyone before me that did the same) You're really not that special, despite what your parents may have told you.

2) The answer to the problem is an algorithm that reduces defensive losses based on attackers strength. (Attackers levels - defensive levels) = X,
actual point loss = Normal points - X/2? (Lowest sum = 0), also possibly take out featured character (that should be your default advantage, just spitballing here), beginners shouldn't have to take on the brutalization they do, but they shouldn't be on par with top end players either. There's math out there to fix this, I'm no math savant, but it shouldn't be that hard to fix.

3) Progression rewards should reflect ability to reach them and need for them (This latest change is a step in the right direction and I applaud D3 for that), however the new "MMR"/matchup changes seem to derail that progression significantly, so we'll see how this is handled when they return.

My final statement is this: The changes made were in the right spirit (+1 D3), the actual outcome was a net negative (-1 D3), I'll wait until they look at the forums and numbers to see if what they implemented is what they want before I start feeling slighted by them (although running these changes during a long weekend feels like a slight in itself). Let's all wait and see how the REDS feel about this change before we bring out the pitchforks.

Unknown

The only anecdote I can add that hasn't already been stated by others is this:

When I received notification that I was attacked, I actually looked forward to who attacked me for once. I was attacked "roughly" (I say roughly because I dont keep track so it is a complete guess) the same number of times in previous PVPs. I was able to win the majority of my retaliations, which in my mind, made me feel like I protected my points through battle.

It took more time playing PvP matches, and healthpacks to "protect" my score in this way. But it was nice to think that when I opened up a red node, it would be against someone of similar strength.

I've never shield hopped. I don't have the strength (roster wise) to climb to 1000. I can certainly see and agree with what the veteran players are sharing. I'm glad they are / did. I'm also glad the "newer" players (I'm apart of the 56%, in my 203 transition) shared their perspectives.

I said this in a previous post. The developers aren't our adversaries. They aren't our friends either. They will make changes to the game to challenge us. If they didn't, it would be harder to keep the appeal.

As well, we are only enemies when we are against each other in PvP // PvE. No need to get hostile with each other. This is our hobby, and it's okay to be passionate. Just don't Hulk out!

Final Advice for 2-3* transitioners - Bust your **** in PvE and make yourself attractive to a top 100 Alliance. It's worth it.

Dauthi

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. It took around 2 hours, and things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too and once they hit a certain total are shown to veterans again.

I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points which was great to get easy points. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The only veterans I see having problems with this are the ones that were still tanking (which shouldn't be, it isn't worth it).

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. Things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too. I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points, so we still get to smack them around, though just the ones that are pushing too far. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The changes favors those who play compared to those who rely on shields. Looking at the trend so far, it seems like you get hammered hard as always but because everyone has much harder matchups now, there's a point where all the guys who are likely to hit you are either out of health packs or they're all forced to shield to play safe. At that point you get to climb virtually unopposed, and since shield hopping is not nearly as effective as it used to be (longer matches, boost nerfs), picking up extra points while all your opponents are out is well worth the risk provided you were able to last that long in the first place. Thanks to the new 'can always see a guy at the top of his bracket' rule you can even see some random 2*s sitting at 600-700 for free points. It's still risky to play constantly but it can definitely pay off.

A corollary to this is that trying to do both PvE and PvP at the same time is now in the realms of crazy talk.

Dauthi

Phantron wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. Things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too. I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points, so we still get to smack them around, though just the ones that are pushing too far. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The changes favors those who play compared to those who rely on shields. Looking at the trend so far, it seems like you get hammered hard as always but because everyone has much harder matchups now, there's a point where all the guys who are likely to hit you are either out of health packs or they're all forced to shield to play safe. At that point you get to climb virtually unopposed, and since shield hopping is not nearly as effective as it used to be (longer matches, boost nerfs), picking up extra points while all your opponents are out is well worth the risk provided you were able to last that long in the first place. Thanks to the new 'can always see a guy at the top of his bracket' rule you can even see some random 2*s sitting at 600-700 for free points. It's still risky to play constantly but it can definitely pay off.

Exactly, that is the way it should be. Instead of constant 30-40 point attacks on me (thanks to everyone seeing me), it was 15-20 point attacks and rare 30 point attacks, so I didn't feel like I was spinning my wheels, I could gain points faster than I was attacked. After shielding there have been 0 attacks on me, so I am pretty sure I could have gone to 1k virtually unopposed.

Unknown

Azoic wrote:

I've seen a lot of players complaining about the latest change in the MMR. I've seen posts complaining about hitting "the wall" right after seed nodes. Do these folks not realize that they are part of the wall, so it should not matter?

You are in the same boat as the 94 players. We down the seeds, and the teams we face are 94s--equal levels. So how does this change screw you over? We all have to fight folks our own levels until we merge in the high-end. I used to see some players in the 40s/60s and whatnot, but now 94s mixed with up to 130 (I did see an odd 220 thrown in).

My roster is a 2* roster, I have no 3* fully cover thou Patch(110ish)I only need one more. I would beat the seed teams then I would face mostly teams that would have 1 - lvl94 and another around 60ish or a team with 70-80 toons. I would not face teams with 2x lvl94 till around 250-300point range. Now I face 2x lvl94 right off the rip, I hate the new system. Before my goal would be to hit 400 points and not shield and hope that would sneak me in top100. If I really wanted a cover I would push really hard to hit 600-650 then shield as soon as possible. I think really this what can be expected as a 2* player. Do I want to get 3* and 4*? Heck yea, that's why I grind pve. Now pvp is feeling like pve, I cant grind both

Monochromize

This one event has been... a positive change for me. Trying to transition to 3* and i found it easier to find teams that weren't maxed 270 xforce and whoever else.

Only one example mind, but its a good start for me.

Nooneelsesname

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. It took around 2 hours, and things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too and once they hit a certain total are shown to veterans again.

I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points which was great to get easy points. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The only veterans I see having problems with this are the ones that were still tanking (which shouldn't be, it isn't worth it).

It's not a prize for having a great roster. It's a prize for having one character. You have a level 250 553 X Force. What these changes did was make that the requirement for winning the game.

Nerfing 4* Thor was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the number of boosts was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the MMR was a buff. For X Force.

The people who this helped are people who own max X Force and 2* rosters that can fly just below the radar. Players that spent time and money maxing their 3* rosters thinking that this would give them a chance of being competitive (which used to be the case) got hurt badly.

So now it's free to play, but it costs 180 days and $550 to win.

Dauthi

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. It took around 2 hours, and things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too and once they hit a certain total are shown to veterans again.

I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points which was great to get easy points. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The only veterans I see having problems with this are the ones that were still tanking (which shouldn't be, it isn't worth it).

It's not a prize for having a great roster. It's a prize for having one character. You have a level 250 553 X Force. What these changes did was make that the requirement for winning the game.

Nerfing 4* Thor was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the number of boosts was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the MMR was a buff. For X Force.

The people who this helped are people who own max X Force and 2* rosters that can fly just below the radar. Players that spent time and money maxing their 3* rosters thinking that this would give them a chance of being competitive (which used to be the case) got hurt badly.

So now it's free to play, but it costs 180 days and $550 to win.

I am a 4* transitional roster as I noted, and can only speak as one. I see many veteran (which I consider 4* transition +) players who dislike the system, and I think it is working for us, so that is why I posted. Virtually all veterans should have X-Force, as he was very easy to get early on, and they have had a long time to obtain him.

I have no clue how it will affect 3* rosters, but I assume they will still end up in the 700 range. I seen a few at 800+ points, but since I had seen/attacked them, I assume they were knocked back to 700.

Mawtful

XForce is my only max level 4*. I think he's my only max cover 4* too.
I've got about 13-14 Max level 3*'s. I dropped ISO into IM 40 to max him during this event.

This was the first time in nearly a year that I managed a top #1 spot in PvP. Finished on ~1032pts, spent 525 HP on shields.

I ran a mix of teams up to ~500, including Ares + OBW, and Cstorm + Cyclops (with more covers/levels in Cyke, this would have been an interesting team). From 500 up I stuck with XFist.

Just past the 900pt mark, I started encountering only 3 or 4 point teams. I had to cycle my queue a few times while I was shielded to line up targets. I didn't intend to take first place, I just shielded after hitting 1000, but earned a few defensive wins after shielding, otherwise I would have ended up #2.

Unknown

Azoic wrote:

I've seen a lot of players complaining about the latest change in the MMR. I've seen posts complaining about hitting "the wall" right after seed nodes. Do these folks not realize that they are part of the wall, so it should not matter?

You are in the same boat as the 94 players. We down the seeds, and the teams we face are 94s--equal levels. So how does this change screw you over? We all have to fight folks our own levels until we merge in the high-end. I used to see some players in the 40s/60s and whatnot, but now 94s mixed with up to 130 (I did see an odd 220 thrown in).

I think this encourages roster diversity. So you can't walk all over 94s to an easy 600+ points...now you get hurt (like we do/did). So you might not be able to use your favorite team the whole time. You might have to switch it up depending on who you are facing.

The 3* progression reward was entirely out of reach before, which is ironic since the 2* transitioner is the one that actually needs the cover at 900 (now 800) points. Now? I was just about to earn it and got hit for a good amount. And that's fine...I know that it is actually possible to get that high without hitting a wall at 500+.

Also, this really helps address the other annoyance--snipers. I'd expect that unless you really want to risk getting into a fresh 20 person bracket with 30 min left, that people won't be trying to join so late, since the climb is harder.


All that said, I would welcome a lowering of points you lose when hit. And D3 might want to consider a 3*/4* event choice: If you select the 3*, then you are limited to a 110 and below roster, with the top progression being a 3* while the 4* event is 111+ and results in a 4* cover. You have to pick one and can't compete in both. I think something like that would severely help alleviate tension between the transitioners, although the 166+ group will still probably be upset not being able to plow through 94s.

We worked through the 2 star transition just like you are now.

We deserve the easy 600.

That's what is considered "progress."

Now, we're back at square one, with the rest of the people like you who haven't put in the time, money and effort that we have.

That is, literally, the opposite of "progress."

P.S. You obviously have no idea what the term "sniper" means in this game.

Nooneelsesname

Dauthi wrote:

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. It took around 2 hours, and things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too and once they hit a certain total are shown to veterans again.

I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points which was great to get easy points. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The only veterans I see having problems with this are the ones that were still tanking (which shouldn't be, it isn't worth it).

It's not a prize for having a great roster. It's a prize for having one character. You have a level 250 553 X Force. What these changes did was make that the requirement for winning the game.

Nerfing 4* Thor was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the number of boosts was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the MMR was a buff. For X Force.

The people who this helped are people who own max X Force and 2* rosters that can fly just below the radar. Players that spent time and money maxing their 3* rosters thinking that this would give them a chance of being competitive (which used to be the case) got hurt badly.

So now it's free to play, but it costs 180 days and $550 to win.

I am a 4* transitional roster as I noted, and can only speak as one. I see many veteran (which I consider 4* transition +) players who dislike the system, and I think it is working for us, so that is why I posted. Virtually all veterans should have X-Force, as he was very easy to get early on, and they have had a long time to obtain him.

I have no clue how it will affect 3* rosters, but I assume they will still end up in the 700 range. I seen a few at 800+ points, but since I had seen/attacked them, I assume they were knocked back to 700.

I guess my point is there is no 4* transition. There's get (or already have) X Force, you win.

Who used to be beatable in a reasonable amount of time with boosts, now not so much.

It was possible for 3* to be in the 800s which would get them the reward designed for them. Even higher with shenanigans, now it's much harder.

So I guess we're talking past each other. My cheese got moved and I'm unhappy.

The change was great for you, terrible for me. Not mad (at you).

Arondite

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I am a 4* transitioner and I just got 900+ points easier than ever in PVP and am in 3rd place with 250 Xforce/Thor and maxed IM40 in the last time slice. It took around 2 hours, and things did get dicey, but I ended up only buying one health pack for the last node to get 920.

To all the top tier players - How is this not great? Just as I predicted, it was more difficult than before from 200-400ish points, but each is at least 40ish points a piece! That is the prize you get for having a great roster, you get to coast to the top swiftly. Yeah, lower rosters get to fight lower teams but for lower points too and once they hit a certain total are shown to veterans again.

I was able to hit 40ish points all the way to 900, and once in awhile I would see a lowbie roster that had too many points which was great to get easy points. The attacks against me were by far less frequent at 700-900 too making it a lot less stressful to hit 900, I imagine getting 1k will be really easy.

The only veterans I see having problems with this are the ones that were still tanking (which shouldn't be, it isn't worth it).

It's not a prize for having a great roster. It's a prize for having one character. You have a level 250 553 X Force. What these changes did was make that the requirement for winning the game.

Nerfing 4* Thor was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the number of boosts was a buff. For X Force.

Nerfing the MMR was a buff. For X Force.

The people who this helped are people who own max X Force and 2* rosters that can fly just below the radar. Players that spent time and money maxing their 3* rosters thinking that this would give them a chance of being competitive (which used to be the case) got hurt badly.

So now it's free to play, but it costs 180 days and $550 to win.

I mean I feel you on most of that, but the nerf to boosts was no buff to X Force my friend. His turn 2 Green and Turn 1 Surgical Strike (when coupled with Iron Fist) were not character-defining, but were huge perks. Losing boosts sets that back significantly, so nah, a character based entirely on speed kills wasn't buffed by the removal of his accelerator lol

GothicKratos

Can we avoid the ad homiem? Thanks.

//////////

Arondite wrote:

I mean I feel you on most of that, but the nerf to boosts was no buff to X Force my friend. His turn 2 Green and Turn 1 Surgical Strike (when coupled with Iron Fist) were not character-defining, but were huge perks. Losing boosts sets that back significantly, so nah, a character based entirely on speed kills wasn't buffed by the removal of his accelerator lol

While you're right, you're also wrong - laterally those changes made it a lot harder for everyone without X-Force to beat X-Force (or Thorina or Iron Fist or whoever else is on top of the meta at any given time).

konannfriends

they need to increaswe the point value of chARACTERS. IF I A 3* PLAYER AND IM FIGHTING A TEAM OF 94S THEN 15-22 POINTS ACCEPTABLE PAY OUT.

BUT IF IM FIGHTING 3* thor and loki. the point value of the match should be at least 29 points because at this point i could lose 25+ points at any given time.

and if im fighting a 4* team or xforce + anyone i should be getting 35 or more points because of the huge possibility of losing and the huge possibility i will be heavily damaged and the huge possibilty i will be attacked.

another thing they could do is limit the amount of points you lose in a certain time frame, alot of things that bothers me is whenn people complain about the wall but dont give the rreason the wall is such a problem. the wall is only a problem because you lose so many points.

when we get to that used to be xforcw thoress wall sure we can beat them with a team of 166 and we may lose 1 out of everyfour because of ai powers ( Lol) but what does it mean if we win 23 pints and then lose 54? and yeah alot of people say shields are neccessary, which is true but with shield cooldowns , shields are alot less reliable and very expensive for a non rich boy like myself, why are there shield cool downs again? i mean its so dumb that i have to plan my day around a shield cool down or i have to use a 24 hour shield when i only need 8 all because i have to wait for my 3hour and 8 hour to cool down.

i mean can i atleast get some kind of reward in ddq that gives be shield uses at my disposal?

acescracked

cletus1985 wrote:

...

1) Too many 2* rosters feel like they're entitled to top rewards, even though they've done nothing to earn them. (It sucks, I get it, been there done that just like everyone before me that did the same) You're really not that special, despite what your parents may have told you...

THIS!!! Something like this should be said in the game tutorial, hah. I get everyone wants to be top 10 after a few weeks? Nah, Nope!