A post supporting the MMR change

dkffiv

Nivrax wrote:

You know what could help? If matchmaking system get reset each time you start event and only count characters you used. You wiped seed teams with your 1*? Get matched with other 1*. Want to roll over them with your 2*? Have fun on those 3 last nodes and now you'll fight 2* since you get 'registered' as having 2* team. Same with 3* and 4*.

This awards deep roster (ability to change tiers multiple times), gives you diverse fights over whole climb, keep difficulty level fair for everyone and gives advantage to people with top roster since once you get past point where you get matched with everyone else, you will need that 'best' characters to stay/fight for top spots.

You wouldn't want to do that. I stopped using weak rosters on my climb. What ends up happening is you get stuck in some **** player's queue and 30m before the end of an event you get hit by a 1* player and lose 50 points.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Ok, no, you have not earned the right to bully noob farms. You may have gone for a 3* roster because of that reason, but it's not a right. It was a game mechanic, and a semi-broken one especially with MMR tanking going on.

There are other ways to make the climb to 500+ easier and the climb to 1000 attainable than allowing 4* rosters to beat up on 2* rosters. Like increasing points for matches vs points lost. I actually climbed to 500 quite easily, it was staying at 500 that was the major problem. I've been hit way way more in this one event than I was all last season. Because why go after a 270 XF when you can just search out a Loaner/166/166 team? Now they have no choice and my team starts looking appetizing if its worth the correct number of points. If instead of farming noobs you had to farm retaliations (which would be worth more than you lost either almost always or a vast majority of the time) would that really be so bad? We could all elevate each others scores and anyone who wanted 1000 points would just have to put in time.

I ran out of health packs around 400 because almost every fight cost me one, even running pretty solid teams.

acescracked

This is little leagues fault (at least in the US, what's the equivalent elsewhere?). Most people think they should get a trophy merely for showing up and participating.

God forbid they should put the effort and time to build something and learning how to win before hitting the trophy level. What's a game without some difficulty and chance of failure? The journey is what's fun but there needs to be some light at the end of the tunnel. There should be a point where a player is rewarded for playing over 400 days, not punished. The work should be put in early in the game; building a roster and slowly getting higher finishes.

Not everyone should win, a percentage should fail horribly. However that's not in D3s best interest. Enough new people have complained that d3 is trying to make the game easier for the early transitioners. OP enjoy the easier game now and please check back to this thread when you have over 400 days playing...us vets will all reserve the I told ya so's for then.

GrumpySmurf1002

PvE is already a game mode built on fighting your own level.

Like others, I'm more against the sheer volume of attacks coming in than I am against having to fight the 3* teams to climb. Even before the change, the number of strictly 2* rosters I saw wasn't that high, I mostly saw 120-94 teams (or 150-94 if it's XForce).

But at least there I could climb once, hang out around 500 or so safely, then do a climb through those 3/4* teams, shield a couple times, and be done. Having to constantly monitor and climb back to a comfortable spot to climb is irritating at best.

tanis3303

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

PvE is already a game mode built on fighting your own level.

Like others, I'm more against the sheer volume of attacks coming in than I am against having to fight the 3* teams to climb. Even before the change, the number of strictly 2* rosters I saw wasn't that high, I mostly saw 120-94 teams (or 150-94 if it's XForce).

But at least there I could climb once, hang out around 500 or so safely, then do a climb through those 3/4* teams, shield a couple times, and be done. Having to constantly monitor and climb back to a comfortable spot to climb is irritating at best.

^This. I have no problem with a fair fight, my roster can handle it. But losing points before you even get to 300? I'm sorry, I've already progressed past that stage of the game. I'm sorry if you newer folks don't want to put in the work, but we all had to go through this. The little league reference above is golden. You don't get a trophy for showing up, you have to put in the time. Train, get stronger, and you will be the best....around. Nothing's gonna ever keep you down.

I've spent a little more time in the Heavy Metal pvp this morning. I'm in slice 3, so my event ends in about 9 hours. Now that the event is winding down, my climb has been similar to what my earlier climbs were under the old system - underleveled 3*s with undercovered xforce's...translation? Transitioning teams. So the vets are still gonna find you. And attack you. But now we're gonna do it at the end of the event, when it actually matters for placement, instead of early on. We used to munch on the easier teams on our initial climb, then fight amonst ourselves towards the end via shield hops and such. Now, seems the smart thing to do is to let all the transitioners climb up high and steamroll thru them at the end. Difference is, us vets are all in highly communicative alliances, and many of us communicate across multiple alliances, to feed off each other's points without actually hitting each other while we're unshielded. So we're gonna be smashing you within the last few hours while we (for the most part) leave each other alone. You're gonna see retal nodes with 270s and Hoods and Loki's and the like because we can find your teams and you're worth the same points as teams at our own level, and you're gonna see your points drop off with only a few hours left to get them back. Still liking this idea?

wymtime

Azoic wrote:

I've seen a lot of players complaining about the latest change in the MMR. I've seen posts complaining about hitting "the wall" right after seed nodes. Do these folks not realize that they are part of the wall, so it should not matter?

You are in the same boat as the 94 players. We down the seeds, and the teams we face are 94s--equal levels. So how does this change screw you over? We all have to fight folks our own levels until we merge in the high-end. I used to see some players in the 40s/60s and whatnot, but now 94s mixed with up to 130 (I did see an odd 220 thrown in).

I think this encourages roster diversity. So you can't walk all over 94s to an easy 600+ points...now you get hurt (like we do/did). So you might not be able to use your favorite team the whole time. You might have to switch it up depending on who you are facing.

The 3* progression reward was entirely out of reach before, which is ironic since the 2* transitioner is the one that actually needs the cover at 900 (now 800) points. Now? I was just about to earn it and got hit for a good amount. And that's fine...I know that it is actually possible to get that high without hitting a wall at 500+.

Also, this really helps address the other annoyance--snipers. I'd expect that unless you really want to risk getting into a fresh 20 person bracket with 30 min left, that people won't be trying to join so late, since the climb is harder.


All that said, I would welcome a lowering of points you lose when hit. And D3 might want to consider a 3*/4* event choice: If you select the 3*, then you are limited to a 110 and below roster, with the top progression being a 3* while the 4* event is 111+ and results in a 4* cover. You have to pick one and can't compete in both. I think something like that would severely help alleviate tension between the transitioners, although the 166+ group will still probably be upset not being able to plow through 94s.

So I am going to address some of your points here. First higher end players are not in the same boat as 2* players now they are in a worse place. A deep 2* roster can easily rotate a couple of different teams in to beat other 2* teams, OBW Ares, MN Mags Storm, Wolvie Daken, HT OBW, Ms Marvel is also usable. All of these characters can b used. For higher end players in this PVP it has become Xforce + 1. You are limited to your absolute top team to climb as far as your health packs can take you.
Second because this has become A-Team or nothing there is no roster diversity. I ran Xforce Hood to 800 points because any other team would probably lose. Could I chance it sure, but if I put a weaker team out there and lose not only do I lose points but I open myself up to more attacks becuase my team is weeker than Xforce, Hood. The buff of extra characters can promote more roster diversity as it could let players play more than Xforce +1. Now it became a Loki, Pach feast when they did it, but 2* teams got a super Ares to help them compete. By buffing more characters in an event it promotes play of those characters, unless they are Beast bad.
Also snipers are still out there and will climb at the end it has no impact on this aspect of the game.
Lowering point loss based on team comp would be ideal. So if a 3* team beat a 2* team they would lose less points and if a lower level team beat a higher level team they should be able to win more points, but the bigger team would not lose more. I am glad you voiced your opinion, but I will ask you to look at it this way. If you are a 2* team and you hav a low level buffed character facing a high level buffed character and 2maxed 2* you are going to bring your A team becuase that buffed 3* can squish you. Now on high level if you don't bring your A team you are much more likely to lose th match just like the 2* team.

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Ok, no, you have not earned the right to bully noob farms. You may have gone for a 3* roster because of that reason, but it's not a right. It was a game mechanic, and a semi-broken one especially with MMR tanking going on.

There are other ways to make the climb to 500+ easier and the climb to 1000 attainable than allowing 4* rosters to beat up on 2* rosters. Like increasing points for matches vs points lost. I actually climbed to 500 quite easily, it was staying at 500 that was the major problem. I've been hit way way more in this one event than I was all last season. Because why go after a 270 XF when you can just search out a Loaner/166/166 team? Now they have no choice and my team starts looking appetizing if its worth the correct number of points. If instead of farming noobs you had to farm retaliations (which would be worth more than you lost either almost always or a vast majority of the time) would that really be so bad? We could all elevate each others scores and anyone who wanted 1000 points would just have to put in time.

I ran out of health packs around 400 because almost every fight cost me one, even running pretty solid teams.

Yea that's a thing. Perhaps you should play the whole event. They are 2.5 days long you know, not 12h long.

simonsez

Lerysh wrote:

Yea that's a thing. Perhaps you should play the whole event. They are 2.5 days long you know, not 12h long.

Right, and for 2.5 days, what most people are experiencing is, they push to 400 or 500, run out of health packs, and then lose 100-200 points during the next few hours while the health packs regenerate. And don't think for a minute I'm going to shield at 500, unless and until the progression award levels are DRASTICALLY reduced.

puppychow

primakov wrote:

Also, with the new system, where if you get in top 50 (top 10%) as a 2* player, at any given time in a pvp, expect to get gangbanged really hard, and get back a few hundred points, since then everyone can see you, and your easy climb to top 50 will not see that good anymore.

I really have to emphasize this point. The chinese wall separating 2* from 3* players vanish at the upper tiers of placement, and I've seen 2* guys banged a lot in a short amount of time. If you''re a 2* player fortunate enough to grab a hundred points early on, it would be wise to invest in shields in order to keep your points. Even if you end up dropping in ranking because the 3/4* players keep accumulating more points, your goal is to walk out of this event with least 1 kamala cover.

Unknown

I did that for 1 or 2 pushes. Basically because at that time 500 was considered a "top score lets take all comers" score because that seems to be based off of rank not points, which is not great design IMO.

What I wound up doing tho was get to 500 progress reward, drop to 400, get to 575 progress reward, drop to 450, get to 650 progress reward, drop to 500. Finally had a good run up to 750 and shielded there to start the final climbs. Of course this would be much easiser/better if PvP above 600 points had actual positive expected value from fights and not 0 sum game point stealing.

This change actually reminds me a lot of what PvP was like back in the day when I was a farm team. Developed rosters are getting hit a lot more than they are use to because A) They are in the top and therefore global targets and 2) Before why would you fight an XF when you can find a Loaner/166/166 team to fight?

evil panda

this is an honest question, albeit a bit early because we haven't even made it through a single event yet under the new MMR:

are you transitioning (assume this means maxed 2*'s and partially developed 3* rosters) players actually having an easier time running up higher scores with the new matchmaking system?

i should probably ask this question again after a couple of events, but i'm interested in an early read...

chaos01

OP, I think you will support this change until you reach the magical line where you join the "big boy" league. Then when you are finishing top 300 when you used to be top 50, your tone will change very quickly.

Unknown

Ok, there is no way I'm finishing top 300. Just because PvP is hard now doesn't mean you can't still win at it. It just takes time (health packs) and effort.

Unknown

My biggest problem with this change is what it seems most people are saying:

1) This change makes PVP work, not fun

2) Matches right after starter round seemed to be based off of my best characters, not those I was using

2) Roster diversity just went out the window. Now I guess all I need are the following characters to play PVP and be competitive: XF, Hood, Loki, Daken, Patch, Cmags, LThor, IF, Cage, along with -- AND MOST IMPORTANT -- the character that'll be released in a week.

So if no changes are made I guess I'll sell of 48 characters and max those listed above with the ISO/HP I may get.

Something I saw a lot of in my run all the way up to the monster number of... 710, and haven't seen a lot of comments on is this:
My retaliations that hit me for anything between 30-49 points each, were only worth 15-20 points to get that person back. That's rather different than I recall retaliation matches

Anyone else not thrilled with having to win three matches to end up with points equal to about two because of the 30-40 point hit you took while climbing???

Vinmarc43

I started teenage riot pvp w/300pts now, everything seems to be normal compared to heavy metal, did seed team to 185 and now I'm getting 94/94/100+ teams, so so far seems to be ok, for me anyway.
Let's see by tomorrow other feedbacks.
So I guess i'm happier....

GrumpySmurf1002

From the original post from Will:

The flipside to that is that higher-level players see less super-easy targets. You’ll generally see opponents with a minimum difficulty of roughly one star level below you. (Players with maxed 3-star teams will see maxed 2-star teams and stronger, for example.)

So this "see max teams from word go" shouldn't be a thing for most players. That is unless the mere presence of a 166+ XF is killing everyone.

Hopefully its just one event of matchmaking resetting itself, but I doubt it.

metabelian

simonsez wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Yea that's a thing. Perhaps you should play the whole event. They are 2.5 days long you know, not 12h long.

Right, and for 2.5 days, what most people are experiencing is, they push to 400 or 500, run out of health packs, and then lose 100-200 points during the next few hours while the health packs regenerate. And don't think for a minute I'm going to shield at 500, unless and until the progression award levels are DRASTICALLY reduced.

Yup, I got up to 580 and then went out. Came back about six hours later to find my score just over 300. I don't have good 4* so that was with a maxed Thor and Daken, 2/4/3 level 80 iron man. My team's not the best, but that's just ridiculous.

Unknown

Point floors would really help out if this new matching stays long term. Pass 500, stay at 500.

IamTheBiggs

Lerysh wrote:

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Hey OP? I've been playing this game for over a year. I have spent *checks steam* almost 2500 hours building a roster full of maxed-out high-tier 3*s (Thor, Daken, Magneto, Sentry, Hood, Hulk, Patch, Steve Rogers, and currently finishing my Blade and Deadpool). And you know what? Coasting to 400 or so before hitting the people who are on my level? I earned that.

And not only is this a matter of entitlement, as in "this is a big reason why I went for the tougher roster in the first place and taking this from me is a huge **** move", this is a matter of necessity. 2* players have to struggle to hit 600? Big tinykitty deal, you don't need 600 to make significant progress. Progress for you is top 100 and maybe a few HP progression rewards. Progress for me is, for the most part, 1k or first place. The amount of ISO you need to finish a character? 69530. ISO I need to finish a character? 172764 or 430437. Oh, and 3* battles eat more health packs. Like, way more health packs. Unless you want to run Daken/Patch/Loaner, which works great against 2*s and stops working against quite a few 3* teams and turns you into a big fat target.

Seriously, this change is just awful.

Ok, no, you have not earned the right to bully noob farms. You may have gone for a 3* roster because of that reason, but it's not a right. It was a game mechanic, and a semi-broken one especially with MMR tanking going on.

There are other ways to make the climb to 500+ easier and the climb to 1000 attainable than allowing 4* rosters to beat up on 2* rosters. Like increasing points for matches vs points lost. I actually climbed to 500 quite easily, it was staying at 500 that was the major problem. I've been hit way way more in this one event than I was all last season. Because why go after a 270 XF when you can just search out a Loaner/166/166 team? Now they have no choice and my team starts looking appetizing if its worth the correct number of points. If instead of farming noobs you had to farm retaliations (which would be worth more than you lost either almost always or a vast majority of the time) would that really be so bad? We could all elevate each others scores and anyone who wanted 1000 points would just have to put in time.

Whoah, whoah, whoah! "Bullying noob farms"? Not in the slightest. "PvP" stands for "Player vs Player". This indeed means that the participants are in COMPETITION with each other. This isn't elementary school, this is an event in which all the participants willingly went in with the notion that they will be ranked based on their skills and performance. After a certain point, those with the developed rosters have moved away from the realm of the contest where those who've not developed their rosters as much will likely reside. They're not being bullied, they're merely put in the position of becoming stepping stones for those on their way to the top. I see them disappear shortly after the 400-450 mark or so and I'm pretty solid into the teams at that point.

After a year of playing (and learning from some early bad mistakes) and not having spent more than $20 or so overall, I am FINALLY able to make it to consistently 500-600 points by the end of an event. That's work! Those who haven't been playing as long can work their way up the same way I -and so many others did.

That said, it remains to be seen how this one ends. If we see a lot of teams in the top positions, then I think there's REALLY a problem. A lot of this is bluster when we haven't seen the completion of the first PvP event.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Yea that's a thing. Perhaps you should play the whole event. They are 2.5 days long you know, not 12h long.

Yes, and perhaps I should swap between day-long and 8-hour-long shields whenever my health packs start running low. Or just spend the hero points on more health packs and play for 2.5 days straight. Or start running "Herbert The Marshmallow Lord", a level 400 secret character I got by using the konami code during the very first Hulk event who will pretty much ensure that nobody ever attacks you, although that'd probably get me sandboxed.