Upcoming Test: Powered-Up Characters in Versus

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

Do we really want to be forced to hulk bomb/xfist using every shield available from 2 days on to the end just to make 1k? Is that fun?

aesthetocyst wrote:

Actually, I find great beauty and fun in a well-planned and executed 4 min, +80pt hop. So, yes, yes it is.

PS--To a previous poster, the sentiment expressed in the post replied to here exemplifies the 'entitlement' I referred to.

Two parts of this response left me gobsmacked:
-- That 2 days spent shield hopping is not only fun (okay, fine by me mate, you're entitled to your own opinion), but to firstly, express the notion 'being forced to grind out hops for 2 days to reach a 1k prog is not only a reasonable expectation, but is fun', and secondly, that to contend that as ark123 did that 'it is not fun and is an unreasonable expectation' is an entitlement mentality?

I'm with ark123 on this one -- I think it's nuts. But, hey, I presume we all believe in the scientific method, so let's put it to a test. Put a PVP system in place where the average effort to get the 1k prog requires 2 full days (48 hours) of coordinated shield hopping and let the player base that made the effort, successfully or unsuccessfully, decide whether it's fun and reasonable.

You can even create the poll here on the forum to collect the feedback, and I'll make a post stating I'm nuts and renounce my entitlement way of thinking on the forum if the player base decides they prefer that system as more fun and reasonable.

Unknown

The whole 'silent pact' thing is pretty much a Prisonner's Dilemma. It's not exactly hard to figure out that if everyone is always attacking everyone else as soon as possible then nobody wins, compared to if everyone backs off slightly you have time for the shields to bounce the attacks off and then everyone can get a higher score. As with Prisonner's Dilemma it's not enforceable once you have enough people because someone's going to figure he can sneak ahead because there are way too many people to keep track of, and he'd be pretty much correct, so the whole silent pact deal is doomed to fail once enough people get to the point where progression is no longer dependent on playing the game.

From my experience on the last two events, I'm going to talk about the gameplaying aspect. As such, anything that doesn't involve playing the game like shields (you're obviously not playing the game when one is up) or coordination is not considered. I assume it's fairly well known that these stuff tend to trump anything you can do via playing the game and if you want to use them that's great but some people either don't do it or can't do it well enough. The game now plays a lot like Pro Cycling. Well, it was always a lot like it but when X Force/Thor dominated it's like some people get to have jet packs on their bikes too so there's no need for too much strategy. We know that MMR tends to put a relatively small group of people clustered together as opponents. As your points start climb you're likely to end up in a circle of say 5-10 players, all likely with comparable if not identical roster strength and similar point to you. At a first glance, this appears to a dead end, since all these guys are as strong as you so if you hit them, they will obviously immediately hit back. Since I've already stated I won't be considering non-playing techniques (e.g. shields) you have no way of avoiding that retal which will easily eat up whatever progress you made. But that's only at a glance. Just like in Pro Cycling you have people who try to push ahead and then people catch up but they keep on do this because eventually the guys behind you will be too tired to catch up, this is true in MPQ too, but here getting tired is 'run out of health packs'. We can assume that the 10 guys you're stuck seeing over and over are also not employing non gameplay strategies (if any of them shielded, you'd no longer see them to begin with). Therefore, to push ahead you must keep on attack, which makes them retaliate, and after enough times some of them will run out of health packs, giving you a free hit on them as they can no longer fight back. Of course, playing at late hours is a good idea too. I made something like 6 pushes before I finally lose the group I was in though I'm sure playing at midnight helped a lot with my last push too. In my previously failed pushes I also was able to pick up some good retaliations that I can save later when I'm getting close to 1000.

Now a good question to ask is what if you ran out of health pack first? Well, nobody said the aggressor is always going to win. I use my failed pushes as a method to store up juicy retaliations for later, since whenever you make a push you have a high amount of points which gives you a chance of being hit by someone even higher than you which you can save for later. It's also entirely possible that it turns out you're never strong enough to make a push like this, but that's why there are stuff like shields you can use too if it's obvious that you can't push through your mini bracket.

reckless442

Phantron wrote:

The whole 'silent pact' thing is pretty much a Prisonner's Dilemma. It's not exactly hard to figure out that if everyone is always attacking everyone else as soon as possible then nobody wins, compared to if everyone backs off slightly you have time for the shields to bounce the attacks off and then everyone can get a higher score. As with Prisonner's Dilemma it's not enforceable once you have enough people because someone's going to figure he can sneak ahead because there are way too many people to keep track of, and he'd be pretty much correct, so the whole silent pact deal is doomed to fail once enough people get to the point where progression is no longer dependent on playing the game.

From my experience on the last two events, I'm going to talk about the gameplaying aspect. As such, anything that doesn't involve playing the game like shields (you're obviously not playing the game when one is up) or coordination is not considered. I assume it's fairly well known that these stuff tend to trump anything you can do via playing the game and if you want to use them that's great but some people either don't do it or can't do it well enough. The game now plays a lot like Pro Cycling. Well, it was always a lot like it but when X Force/Thor dominated it's like some people get to have jet packs on their bikes too so there's no need for too much strategy. We know that MMR tends to put a relatively small group of people clustered together as opponents. As your points start climb you're likely to end up in a circle of say 5-10 players, all likely with comparable if not identical roster strength and similar point to you. At a first glance, this appears to a dead end, since all these guys are as strong as you so if you hit them, they will obviously immediately hit back. Since I've already stated I won't be considering non-playing techniques (e.g. shields) you have no way of avoiding that retal which will easily eat up whatever progress you made. But that's only at a glance. Just like in Pro Cycling you have people who try to push ahead and then people catch up but they keep on do this because eventually the guys behind you will be too tired to catch up, this is true in MPQ too, but here getting tired is 'run out of health packs'. We can assume that the 10 guys you're stuck seeing over and over are also not employing non gameplay strategies (if any of them shielded, you'd no longer see them to begin with). Therefore, to push ahead you must keep on attack, which makes them retaliate, and after enough times some of them will run out of health packs, giving you a free hit on them as they can no longer fight back. Of course, playing at late hours is a good idea too. I made something like 6 pushes before I finally lose the group I was in though I'm sure playing at midnight helped a lot with my last push too. In my previously failed pushes I also was able to pick up some good retaliations that I can save later when I'm getting close to 1000.

Now a good question to ask is what if you ran out of health pack first? Well, nobody said the aggressor is always going to win. I use my failed pushes as a method to store up juicy retaliations for later, since whenever you make a push you have a high amount of points which gives you a chance of being hit by someone even higher than you which you can save for later. It's also entirely possible that it turns out you're never strong enough to make a push like this, but that's why there are stuff like shields you can use too if it's obvious that you can't push through your mini bracket.

You obviously don't play at a high level if you think health packs are a factor at high levels. They aren't, because you can only do two to three matches at a time once you begin shield-hopping. That's because all the players 400-500 points below you start hitting you for 35+ points, causing you to lose more per match than you can possibly gain by hitting someone with a similar score.

Bowgentle

reckless442 wrote:

You obviously don't play at a high level if you think health packs are a factor at high levels. They aren't, because you can only do two to three matches at a time once you begin shield-hopping. That's because all the players 400-500 points below you start hitting you for 35+ points, causing you to lose more per match than you can possibly gain by hitting someone with a similar score.

He said shields aren't used.

Which makes this a completely regular Phantron posts, going off on a tangent talking about a situation that doesn't exist, because of course people shield.

So his usual 3000+ words on a hypothetical scenario that has no real world meaning.

I swear I have no idea why people keep thumbing up his drivel.

Nylarx

Playing unshielded is only possible if there is a big difference in power. As everyone is strong enough to beat everyone else, as soon as you get a high enough score you become multi-targeted and get dragged back down, so the only way to progress is to shield, and line up someone that has a high score.
But wait! Everyone that has a high score is also shielded, so you can't actually queue up anyone with a decent score, and all you see is a sea of 3 pointers. Your only hope is to wait for someone to unshield and then line them up (which they most likely will not do if all they can see is a sea of 3 pointers as well).
It just feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy ^^'

Unknown

Bowgentle wrote:

Which makes this a completely regular Phantron posts, going off on a tangent talking about a situation that doesn't exist, because of course people shield.

So his usual 3000+ words on a hypothetical scenario that has no real world meaning.

I swear I have no idea why people keep thumbing up his drivel.

I have to defend Phantron here: Counter arguments are fine, but the ad hominem isn't necessary.

Personally, I find Phantron's posts offer great merit overall to the forum. From my observation he's probably the most responsive poster on the forum and among the most prolific -- responding rapidly to (often my) questions, and offering unique perspectives. As far as I'm concerned, that's a positive thing, at least for those who agree democracy might be a good idea.

TheRealJRad

This is terrible. My roster was just getting to where I could compete with 166 teams, and now I'm facing walls of 280 Patch/Thor/etc, effectively locking me out of top 100.

Unknown

This is not the right thread to discuss the ethics and specifics of shield hopping. Give the publishers feedback about the powered up character changes in pvp or talk about the shield **** on Line or a corresponding thread within the forum. Get rid of this PvP style!!!!!! This has Versus terrible.

Stax the Foyer

Bowgentle wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

You obviously don't play at a high level if you think health packs are a factor at high levels. They aren't, because you can only do two to three matches at a time once you begin shield-hopping. That's because all the players 400-500 points below you start hitting you for 35+ points, causing you to lose more per match than you can possibly gain by hitting someone with a similar score.

He said shields aren't used.

Which makes this a completely regular Phantron posts, going off on a tangent talking about a situation that doesn't exist, because of course people shield.

So his usual 3000+ words on a hypothetical scenario that has no real world meaning.

I swear I have no idea why people keep thumbing up his drivel.

"I am aware that the forward pass is a legal football move. However, what my analysis of the Super Bowl presupposes is ... what if it wasn't?"

Unknown

well, im still not hating on this whole thing.

i think along the lines of OP, and thus far it seems "balanced" as in every 166patch can beat another 166patch.

i would like it tho, if the number of buffed characters decreases! say, only one buffed chara from every rarity lvl per week. (besides featured character ofc)

that way, people would be hesitant u play their A-team (this week patch/loki)

simonsez

Phantron wrote:

The whole 'silent pact' thing is pretty much a Prisonner's Dilemma

No, it's not. It's nothing at all like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Cooperation is the most beneficial course of action to all players. The only thing you gain by defecting is a big bullseye on your back.

Unknown

Bowgentle wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

You obviously don't play at a high level if you think health packs are a factor at high levels. They aren't, because you can only do two to three matches at a time once you begin shield-hopping. That's because all the players 400-500 points below you start hitting you for 35+ points, causing you to lose more per match than you can possibly gain by hitting someone with a similar score.

He said shields aren't used.

Which makes this a completely regular Phantron posts, going off on a tangent talking about a situation that doesn't exist, because of course people shield.

So his usual 3000+ words on a hypothetical scenario that has no real world meaning.

I swear I have no idea why people keep thumbing up his drivel.

I don't know, man, he used the words "prisoner's dilemma", would someone who doesn't know what he's talking about have that kind of philosophy 101 knowledge? And look at how big those paragraphs are. Now, if you'd mentioned Occam's razor or Plato's allegory of the cave you might have had a point, but as it is, no dice.

Unknown

TheRealJRad wrote:

This is terrible. My roster was just getting to where I could compete with 166 teams, and now I'm facing walls of 280 Patch/Thor/etc, effectively locking me out of top 100.

I hadn't even considered this. If I was starting the 3* transition and had BP and Rogers as my two first 166s I'd be so, so pissed off.

babinro

babinro wrote:

General thoughts about this idea on paper:

1) Seems like an interesting way to potentially promote using counters to characters and roster diversity. This is in theory though. I don't exactly use a varied roster when up against boosted PvE characters. It's just my default go to teams. Especially at the highest tiers of competitive play.

2) People will be UPSET over this on a weekly basis.
Expect plenty of the following threads...

"Why is __________ boosted during the week where you release ______ covers/progression reward?"
"I'd have won that Xavier cover had you not boosted _____"
"Why am I being punished in _____ event for not having a leveled ______?"
"STOP boosting _____"
"______ character is worthless boosted since they have no damage abilities"

3) Fact: PvP's just got a lot tougher
More boosted characters mean tougher battles and more damage received. This will drain health packs quicker and result in lower event scores. Naturally it means fewer people will be getting the 1000 prog rewards. It should also do a good job punishing those who late join events like myself since everything just got a lot riskier. Hope you enjoy your wall of boosted Iron Fist's dealing ~800 damage a turn all week long.

The more I think about this change the more I'm disliking it...just got to wait and see.

General thoughts on this change after 2 PvP events...not a fan of this format.

This format showcases the BOOSTED characters rather than the FEATURED character.

I feel as though you could run just about any featured character and you'd continue to see Patch/Loki or Thor/Hood because they are the stars. Not the featured character. This is even true at the lower tiers of play....Ares is a horrendous character to partner to Human Torch and yet he dominated the early climb.

If we had XF and Classic Magneto buffed next week I can guarantee you that the featured character all week long would have little to no impact on peoples team choices.

Natural Progression is lost. Too much RNG.

One week a character is amazing. The next week that same character is practically worthless because not only were they lowered....but they are now expected to take on other characters boosted to a tier above them.

There's no consistency in this format. My feeling of natural progression through focusing my efforts on key characters and gradually seeing my progression improve in this games now feels wasted when success is largely determined at the whim of the weekly boosted character roster.

A featured character shakes things up while maintaining a feeling of stability at all times. This format feels like rolling the dice on your HIGHLY limited resource spending decisions every week with the only stability coming from 4* characters.

Recommended Solution(s)

1) Keep it simple.
Feature character is the ONLY buffed character to say level 300.
This puts the spotlight on them and potentially forms builds that counter this character without actually making your prior character build decisions feel wasted.

2) Boost Featured, ** and * characters ONLY.
Want to create more options while keeping your prior decisions and progression relevant?

Increase the number of relevant *** tier characters without actually removing 3* options.

This helps lower tier players transition in PvP but doesn't extend this advantage to other modes of play. Yeah, Ares will always make for a top notch 3* tier pvp character but he'll NEVER be featured and he won't compliment every featured character. You'll still have motivation to diversify your 3* roster since those boosted characters will allow your to really compete against 4*'s. Once again (hopefully) achieving natural progression without invalidating your ISO/HP spending decisions.

Unknown

I disagree, the Featured played into the choice of Hood/Loki for Human Torch, and now that it's Daken you see Patch/Thor more. I could get behind boosting the Featured to 310 tho. Although he still won't play much of a role in team selection even at that level.

Arondite

ark123 wrote:

TheRealJRad wrote:

This is terrible. My roster was just getting to where I could compete with 166 teams, and now I'm facing walls of 280 Patch/Thor/etc, effectively locking me out of top 100.

I hadn't even considered this. If I was starting the 3* transition and had BP and Rogers as my two first 166s I'd be so, so pissed off.

Not next week, when they're boosted to the heavens and beyond :^)

TheRealJRad

ark123 wrote:

TheRealJRad wrote:

This is terrible. My roster was just getting to where I could compete with 166 teams, and now I'm facing walls of 280 Patch/Thor/etc, effectively locking me out of top 100.

I hadn't even considered this. If I was starting the 3* transition and had BP and Rogers as my two first 166s I'd be so, so pissed off.

Sentry and Cap are my two 166s. Not world beaters, but I can at least go up against other 166 teams. Luckily, I grabbed a 9th Patch cover with my 10-pack right before the event, so he's at least useable, but I'm going through this with a 3/2/4 Patch and a Cap trying to beat 280 Patch/280 Thor type teams. Ain't happenin'.

Unknown

If you attack someone as soon as you queue them, chances are they'll still be active, and so you'll have a chance of getting hit right back.
If you attack someone a little after you queue them, chances are they'll be shielded, and can't hit you back because there's no retaliation node.

It only makes sense to hit someone immediately if
A. you're going to shield immediately after the battle or
B. you think the target is too juicy and will be hit by other players, lowering the value or
C. you think that someone will hit you while unshielded if you take a different battle and you'll lose the node.

You can start gambling, but it doesn't always go as well.

It's not so much a silent pact as it is smart playing which happens to work out for everyone.

simonsez

aesthetocyst wrote:

Seriously, so long as shields are impenetrable, you can rant, rave, kick sand, wave fists all you like; unless the targeted player screws up, you can't touch him.

Given how much forum complaining we see about getting sniped, a lot of people must be screwing up.

mohio

daibar wrote:

If you attack someone as soon as you queue them, chances are they'll still be active, and so you'll have a chance of getting hit right back.
If you attack someone a little after you queue them, chances are they'll be shielded, and can't hit you back because there's no retaliation node.

It only makes sense to hit someone immediately if
A. you're going to shield immediately after the battle or
B. you think the target is too juicy and will be hit by other players, lowering the value or
C. you think that someone will hit you while unshielded if you take a different battle and you'll lose the node.

You can start gambling, but it doesn't always go as well.

It's not so much a silent pact as it is smart playing which happens to work out for everyone.

The problem with this logic is that the retal has to actually be worthwhile for them to use, and there's almost no chances of that happening. Unless you are at the very top of all players in your bracket/slice, you should be targeting guys worth 30+ (and often much more), so for the retal to be worth it to the guy getting attacked he'd have to be sniped by a lot of guys and drop a ton of points. If you're just hopping in the 900-1000 range you can usually queue up guys at 1100+ (in the slices I've been frequenting), and there's 0 chance those guys would take the time to attack you back.