4* Buffs instead of Nerfs

Unknown

Some thoughts on ways to buff 4* characters to competitive power levels instead of nerfing existing characters

Invisible Woman:
Lower cost to 11, stuns enemy for 1 or 2 rounds after making someone invisible, max level stuns enemy team
passively add bubbles, favoring enemy tiles (CD,strike,attack,etc) so that they can't trigger. Active ability around 7 AP maybe that changes a selected bubble into a protect tile
deals damage to enemy team and doesn't end turn.

Nick Fury:
Level 5: Hulk lands, Hulk smashes, Thor brings the thunder -> Deals damage to all enemies and changes 5 random basic tiles to green.
Lower cost to 9 AP
if CD matched before time ends, steals the enemy team's purple AP

Elektra:
if no enemy strike tiles are present, steal AP from the enemy team
change to be when any character takes damage it activates a trap tile
-1 AP

Star-lord:
if CD tile is matched before the CD ends, it does half damage to the enemy team
if CD tile is matched before the CD ends, it creates a new CD tile on a random tile
if CD tile is matched before the CD ends, it drains 2 ap from colors (whatever colors are increased by the current cover level)

Seems like the knee-jerk response to characters being over-represented is to diminish the power of those characters so that people use other characters. Instead of diminishing these, bring the underrepresented up to promote roster diversity. Just some thoughts, no idea how good they are without play testing, but figured it couldn't hurt to play around with some ideas.

Unknown

I second the idea. Powerful characters should remain powerful (well may be nerfed a little bit). Instead there should be other characters/combos that are able to successfully counter them. Rock-scissors-paper approach. That's the way to promote roster diversity (and money spending for sure )

Edit: basically when they create a power they should think of something to counter it.
Make stun - create some characters with passive immune to stun.
Create charged tiles - another char should be able to burst/convert/freeze them.
Make invisibility power - some AoE attacks should ignore it (I mean if it's Call the Storm it's storm for everybody regardless whether you're visible or not)

MarvelMan

I like the concept as 4*s, in my mind, SHOULD be more powerful than 3*s. Maybe the weak ones are on par with the average/strong 3*s, but in general they should be better. And not just niche better.

I think that Thoress got beat too hard (maybe 8 charged on 5B?) but the ones you listed are the real travesty. I cant say the last time I saw IW/Elektra/Star Lord in PVP. I do see the occasional NF though.

I cant really speak to how the above tweaks would affect them, without playing them in a PVP/PVE. Maybe they could do a test server, or just a 2day PVP simultaneous 2day PVE during the season break with adjusted powers. Yeah, its not season....but seasons have calmed down a bit and it would give them lots of real world data to analyze.

simonsez

I think you're overcomplicating Elektra and Starlord, when simple changes are all that's necessary.

Elektra purple should convert any enemy special tiles (including charged tiles) to strike tiles; red should either create a strike tile instead of a trap tile (and change purple/black conditionals so they're not dependent on trap tile), or let you place the trap so you can put it on a color that won't be overwritten.

Starlord's red should be a placeable tile.

Unknown

I like that change to NF , especially if it steals enough to cast again (assuming the enemy has that much). is already pretty good at 10 AP, no need to change.

IW needs a whole rework, not just fixing her current power set.

I like the idea of AP steal for Elektra (maybe 3 of each if no strike tile present?), but instead I think just add a 0+X strike tile to your side if they have none. Her functions fine but costs too much. It needs to be at lest 9 if not 6. Powers that protect us from damage are useless if they take 4 rounds to fire off. This is why Cage is awesome and L.Cap sucks at protecting people.

If Star Lords dealt the damage up front and only used the CD for the secondary of power cost increase it would be a pretty good power. Assuming CD resolution all his powers clear 600 damage per AP plus his yellow accelerator makes him decent. Especially now that Power Smite is <500 damage per AP.

From another thread:

Lerysh wrote:

I agree with the other posers about bringing balance to the 4* game by buffing existing 4*s not nerfing the only good ones. 4*s deserve to be on the top of the heap, not just grouped in with the "really good 3*s".

Phase 1) Buff Nick Fury. Give him XF health, 10600. With no regen possibility that's still not a lot in 4* land. Give more damage to Escape Plan. With odd color damage combos Fury can be good given the right situation, expanded health and damage will increase the situations in which he is good.

Phase 2) Buff IW. I don't care how, just do it. She's an embarrassment. Also change her art, she looks more like Mr. Incredible than Sue Storm.

Phase 3) Tweak Elektra/Starlord. Double-Double Cross needs to create a even if none exist on the enemy side. Starlords should be more like Ms. marvel, with the 6k damage up front single target and the placed CD for 1400 team damage. Also maybe make his do the damage on placement of the tile.

Those changes would bring potential balance to the Force (pun intended). As it stands XF/IF and Thor/Cyclops may start seeing some use anyway. There is room for other teams, but the other 4* characters have glaring flaws that make them unattractive to use.

Even with the deflation of Thor, a couple of existing 4* tweaks couldn't hurt.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

I think you're overcomplicating Elektra and Starlord, when simple changes are all that's necessary.

Elektra purple should convert any enemy special tiles (including charged tiles) to strike tiles; red should either create a strike tile instead of a trap tile (and change purple/black conditionals so they're not dependent on trap tile), or let you place the trap so you can put it on a color that won't be overwritten.

Starlord's red should be a placeable tile.

My thought with the purple was to play to the give and take the ability represents...if no special tiles are present, you still get something for it. I don't think charged tiles makes sense, but only because those benefit both teams. Not to say that my ideas were anything special, just some thoughts on the matter. I like the idea of Starlord's red and Elektra's red being placeable.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

I think you're overcomplicating Elektra and Starlord, when simple changes are all that's necessary.

Elektra purple should convert any enemy special tiles (including charged tiles) to strike tiles; red should either create a strike tile instead of a trap tile (and change purple/black conditionals so they're not dependent on trap tile), or let you place the trap so you can put it on a color that won't be overwritten.

Starlord's red should be a placeable tile.

Charge Tiles aren't enemy special tiles, they are neutral, similar to web tiles. They benefit both sides equally.

simonsez

Xiphoen wrote:

I don't think charged tiles makes sense, but only because those benefit both teams.

Good point. My thought was to increase her potential opponents as widely as possible.

NorthernPolarity

I'd like to see more character buffs as well. Unfortunately I don't think the tweaks that you mentioned would really put any of those characters close to X-Forces power level, which gives you an idea of how much of an outlier he really is. It might make more sense to just focus on one character and get him up to X-Force tier, since that would be a lot smoother than buffing 5 different guys at one.

MarvelMan

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I'd like to see more character buffs as well. Unfortunately I don't think the tweaks that you mentioned would really put any of those characters close to X-Forces power level, which gives you an idea of how much of an outlier he really is. It might make more sense to just focus on one character and get him up to X-Force tier, since that would be a lot smoother than buffing 5 different guys at one.

Do we need all the 4*s at the XF level? Or can they just leave him alone at the top (someone has to be) and make the other 4*s viable?

And are we confident in their ability to focus on one character and get it balanced? let alone to a targeted power level.....

NorthernPolarity

MarvelMan wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I'd like to see more character buffs as well. Unfortunately I don't think the tweaks that you mentioned would really put any of those characters close to X-Forces power level, which gives you an idea of how much of an outlier he really is. It might make more sense to just focus on one character and get him up to X-Force tier, since that would be a lot smoother than buffing 5 different guys at one.

Do we need all the 4*s at the XF level? Or can they just leave him alone at the top (someone has to be) and make the other 4*s viable?

And are we confident in their ability to focus on one character and get it balanced? let alone to a targeted power level.....

I mean unless you want to spend the rest of MPQs lifetime playing with X-Force in every single PvP event, then yes, it would probably be good to not make him the sole outlier in the game. I hate the "someone has to be top tier" argument, because while its true that someone is going to be top, if second place isn't that far off then the featured character WILL make it so that you'd run the second guy over the top tier guy. For instance, if X-Force is still top tier but Fury is close, then we'd see people running Fury over X-Force when it makes sense to, like oh I don't know, this Punisher tournament where X-Force conflicts 100% with Punisher. We are definitely not confident in their ability to balance, but sometimes you just need to close your eyes and believe (and probably get thrown off a cliff as a result if past history is any indication).

MarvelMan

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I hate the "someone has to be top tier" argument

I hate it too, I feel it should be situational. Where Im coming from is that Id rather see a buff to the 4*s that arent even good (which is the majority) than just lop the top off and adjust XF. Yeah, its monotonous having him always there but unless they go Spidey/Thoress on him it wont make the others playable. And even then it wouldnt help Elektra or IW. Focus first on bringing the others to a usable level, then bring him close to them.

simonsez

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I hate the "someone has to be top tier" argument

If I didn't know any better, this sounds like an argument against the GT nerf.

I agree though, I'd love to have reasons to use the other 4s.

Unknown

I agree 100%, if we can just get the current 4*s and even the 3*s to a somewhat even power level so that it is a matter of small degrees in regards to power levels, then we can see some actual different teams than the current xf+gt or xf+random in every fight. Although I think a big thing we could do to get there would be to have a PTR or something that would make it so changes can be tested by a larger audience before they go live, rather than over-nerfing to try to find where the bullseye is.

konannfriends

simonsez wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I hate the "someone has to be top tier" argument

If I didn't know any better, this sounds like an argument against the GT nerf.

I agree though, I'd love to have reasons to use the other 4s.

i hate it too. i mean why shouldnt Invisble woman be able to blast xforce to bits

Unknown

4* seems to be where they experiment with unusual mechanics. The problem is, they don't fix them all, once the experiment has run its course.

Counterpoint: charged tiles. Quite controversial a change, but well within Demiurge's intentions. Once they saw what they could do, something had to change.

But look at the invisibility tile: Actually, yeah, look at the freakin' invisibility tile. New 4* guy has the same stinking ability, only it costs one third and does epic-level Falcon boosting. Clearly, IW was the experiment, and Xavier was the outcome, but they left Sue dying in a cage like a poor little bunny. Or a tiny kitty.

Idea: an invisible trap that does damage every turn.
Conclusion: That's literally just an attack tile, and Daken can get rid of it by accident. Needs more damage or more tiles.

Idea: What if Sue could do huge damage by bursting tiles apart?
Conclusion: Yeah, what if she could?

Idea: Wouldn't it be funny if Devil Dinosaur had to reach level 270 for his abilities to do moderate damage?
Conclusion: No, it wouldn't.

Idea: Really powerful abilities should end the turn.
Conclusion: Naw, they probably shouldn't. Let's not do that anymore.

And again, Sue is left with an ability that doesn't even do that much but still ends the turn.

FaustianDeal

simonsez wrote:

I think you're overcomplicating Elektra and Starlord, when simple changes are all that's necessary.

Elektra purple should convert any enemy special tiles (including charged tiles) to strike tiles; red should either create a strike tile instead of a trap tile (and change purple/black conditionals so they're not dependent on trap tile), or let you place the trap so you can put it on a color that won't be overwritten.

Starlord's red should be a placeable tile.

Your Elektra suggestion made me think: what if she buffed/stole whatever they had and left them an inferior copy of it? If they had a protect tile out Elektra steals/buffs it and gives them a crummy small protect tile instead? Same with Attack or Strike. If there are no specials then she gives them specials (like now), but instead of them all being strikes let them be a strike then a protect then an attack.

Mikaveus

Nerf X-Force (really just his surgical strike), buff Star-Lord, and triple-buff Invisible Woman and you're likely to see more 4* combinations at the top of PvP events.

konannfriends

Mikaveus wrote:

Nerf X-Force (really just his surgical strike), buff Star-Lord, and triple-buff Invisible Woman and you're likely to see more 4* combinations at the top of PvP events.

yeah honestly i dont see why he gets 2 nukes and true healing. i think the damage should be reduced way down to like 250 per tile and max level. He still does a bit of damage, board shake ,gains ap and depletes the other teams and even then some could still argue to tske the damage away completely

Unknown

konannfriends wrote:

Mikaveus wrote:

Nerf X-Force (really just his surgical strike), buff Star-Lord, and triple-buff Invisible Woman and you're likely to see more 4* combinations at the top of PvP events.

yeah honestly i dont see why he gets 2 nukes and true healing. i think the damage should be reduced way down to like 250 per tile and max level. He still does a bit of damage, board shake ,gains ap and depletes the other teams and even then some could still argue to tske the damage away completely

Surgical Strike isn't a nuke. It's barely 400 damage per AP, on an average board. It gathers AP tho, and if that AP is useful it's damage capability is enhanced.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

konannfriends wrote:

Mikaveus wrote:

Nerf X-Force (really just his surgical strike), buff Star-Lord, and triple-buff Invisible Woman and you're likely to see more 4* combinations at the top of PvP events.

yeah honestly i dont see why he gets 2 nukes and true healing. i think the damage should be reduced way down to like 250 per tile and max level. He still does a bit of damage, board shake ,gains ap and depletes the other teams and even then some could still argue to tske the damage away completely

Surgical Strike isn't a nuke. It's barely 400 damage per AP, on an average board. It gathers AP tho, and if that AP is useful it's damage capability is enhanced.

Yeah what's funny is if you use xforce at the higher spectrum of pvp meaning walls of xhor and maxed out featured, ss don't get you too far...like having to chew threw 36k health...once you use SS you can't use it again for a long time and even if you could, not many tiles on board to SS. It actually seems right compared to that level of roster competition. Without retribution and twin pistols I would have never even come close to the 1012 I managed to shield hop too in army of one. Many battles where thor surge would have fired on the next turn, retribution saving my butt cause ss was useless.