Aw Sweet, They Nerfed A 4*!

NorthernPolarity

Trilateralus wrote:

Even before 4hor's nerf XF was still widely considered the best character. His power level is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else and while I'd prefer a rock/paper/scissors style solution where there is a character who counters him, suggesting he isn't at least as big a game changer as 4hor is just wrong.

Er... no, and there's an extremely easy scenario where you can see that this is completely false. If you were facing a scaled 395 PvE node and you can bring only either X-Force or 4or, who would you bring? Any sane person would say 4or, and it isn't even close. Surge / Smite does such a ridiculous amount of damage over time that literally any other ability is probably at least twice as inefficient as that combo.

X-Force being good is actually more of like why Psylocke is good: he's fast and great at stomping weaker characters.

Trilateralus wrote:

It's not just the damage does, it's how cheap it is, plus board shake and cascades.

Cheap + board shake / cascades, but hardly the game ender. Yeah, this ability is great versus Hood since it one shots him, but once the 4* metagame becomes full with 10k+ HP characters, can you really say that this ability is as amazing as you make it out to be? Surgical strike is the reason why X-Force is so good for sustained damage, but a best case Surgical Strike probably does as much damage as demolition, so it's not that that is completely overpowered either.

X-Force might be better at stomping weak 3* characters, but 4or is far and away the best character at killing anything 4*s and above, so it seems crazy to say that X-Force is better than 4or. There have been PvPs such as mohawk where I considered running another character over X-Force, but under no circumstances would it have ever been right to not run 4or.

Trilateralus

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Trilateralus wrote:

Even before 4hor's nerf XF was still widely considered the best character. His power level is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else and while I'd prefer a rock/paper/scissors style solution where there is a character who counters him, suggesting he isn't at least as big a game changer as 4hor is just wrong.

Er... no, and there's an extremely easy scenario where you can see that this is completely false. If you were facing a scaled 395 PvE node and you can bring only either X-Force or 4or, who would you bring? Any sane person would say 4or, and it isn't even close. Surge / Smite does such a ridiculous amount of damage over time that literally any other ability is probably at least twice as inefficient as that combo.

X-Force being good is actually more of like why Psylocke is good: he's fast and great at stomping weaker characters.

Trilateralus wrote:

It's not just the damage does, it's how cheap it is, plus board shake and cascades.

Cheap + board shake / cascades, but hardly the game ender. Yeah, this ability is great versus Hood since it one shots him, but once the 4* metagame becomes full with 10k+ HP characters, can you really say that this ability is as amazing as you make it out to be? Surgical strike is the reason why X-Force is so good for sustained damage, but a best case Surgical Strike probably does as much damage as demolition, so it's not that that is completely overpowered either.

X-Force might be better at stomping weak 3* characters, but 4or is far and away the best character at killing anything 4*s and above, so it seems crazy to say that X-Force is better than 4or. There have been PvPs such as mohawk where I considered running another character over X-Force, but under no circumstances would it have ever been right to not run 4or.

If we're basing characters worth on their ability to fight in 395 PVE nodes we might as well take * rank out of the conversation entirely. Are you going to solo that node with 4hor? In fight with that level of power disparity you win through strategy not power. Aside from survival nodes when else are you going to have the time to build up her attacks to that degree? The metagame of MPQ is overwhelmingly about speed and no one tops XF for speed and power combined. How often do you face 4* characters other than 4hor or XF? In PVP you're either going to be stomping weak 3* characters or using the AI's charge tiles against them in a mirror match.

NorthernPolarity

Trilateralus wrote:

The metagame of MPQ is overwhelmingly about speed and no one tops XF for speed and power combined. How often do you face 4* characters other than 4hor or XF? In PVP you're either going to be stomping weak 3* characters or using the AI's charge tiles against them in a mirror match.

Er... using the AI's charge tiles against them in a mirror match? Honest question: do you have a 4or that you use in PvP? That's not even a real consideration because you kill them most of the time far before they can even get the AP to surge you. My example of 395 nodes is just an extreme case that showcases the power of 4or: thats not the entirely of my argument. Lets talk about normal PvP. In normal PvP, the only thing that matters is the metagame after 700 points: anything below doesn't matter since you can win with either xf or 4or below that without fearing retaliations. And what is this metagame after 700 points? Well, it's entirely mirror matches. So how does one win the mirror match anyways? I have played what, 3-4 straight months of xor, and here's what happens pretty much every single game:
1. X-Force / Surgical down the first guy (usually has lower HP than X-Force).
2. Surge 4or, 1 shot x-force with Smite, stunlock 4or with more surges or one shot her with a smite from the AP gathered with stun.

So how does each character rank up in this average case?
X-Force - kills the first guy quickly (which usually has less HP than xforce or 4or)
4or - kills the opposing xor by herself.

Yeah, PvP is about speed, and 4or essentially does 26k damage for 19 AP: good luck finding anyone else that can even remotely do as much damage for that amount of AP. I mean sure you can argue that X-Force kills the first guy a lot faster than 4or which is completely true, but 4or is the one that does all the heavy lifting in the team in terms of damage. You can argue that both roles are equally as important which is probably true, but to say that X-Force is far and away better than 4or when 4or is the one dealing all the damage is ludicrous.

Trilateralus wrote:

If we're basing characters worth on their ability to fight in 395 PVE nodes we might as well take * rank out of the conversation entirely. Are you going to solo that node with 4hor? In fight with that level of power disparity you win through strategy not power. Aside from survival nodes when else are you going to have the time to build up her attacks to that degree?

Wait what? I'm saying if you could only bring x-force or 4or on your team versus a scaled 395 node, which one would you bring? Any team that you can make with X-Force is going to be inferior to a team that you can make with 4or. Good luck killing 20k HP juggs / ares with surgicals and x-forces.

Unknown

The_Valeyard wrote:

Are you coming back? At least to try the changes before you make your mind up definitively?

Aww, thankyou for implying you want me to play again but no. It's not really the changes so much as the design decisions they imply, so trying them out doesn't fix my issue with them.... if you get what I mean.

Also been strangely relaxing not to have to worry about MPQ at all. SO TBH, the only thing i've missed at all are the people I have chatted to about MPQ, playing the game couldn't have been much further from my mind . Maybe that's why I keep popping to the forum to have a read!

I hope it's fun for everyone though. Even if it is I still think D3/Demiurge/whoever is responsible has been pretty damned anti-consumer in how they have handled every BIG nerf to characters (4Thor this time, spidey/sentry/whoever before) with their insulting resale rates and don't think you should hand them your money until they start respecting the value of that money a little better (when it comes to significantly altering the function (negatively) of the thing you paid for).

Oh... and I genuinely do think XForce is an outlier now just to be a bit on topic. I had been gathering a lot of numbers on his AP gain from cascades before I quit and when you add it into his damage and AP denial/gain from SS it's pretty clear he is a cut above Fury (arguably next best after 4Thor nerf, or happy to say a cut above the new 4Thor if you think she edges Fury) and that doesn't even take into account his sustain from true heal.

To be VERY clear though I DO NOT think he should be nerfed. I think the other 4*s should be buffed (just as I did prior to the 4Thor nerf (where I would have advocated a smaller nerf to avoid her chaining but preserve most of her damage)) BUT the pattern of behaviour from the devs suggests that's not going to happen and that just plain leaves Xforce as a curious outlier.


EDIT: oh and regarding NP and Trilateralus's discussion:

Xforce is arguably better than pre-nerf 4Thor UNLESS you are facing over-scaled PvE OR 4Thor in PvP. Maybe a bit close on the PvP claim if the featured is 8.5k or 10k normally pre-boosted and he might run out of steam there giving 4Thor the edge.....

Soooo... I agree with NP pretty much entirely. You see top end PvP is virtually all vs 4Thor, you almost never get a match without her to give Xforce a chance to be better. Add that to the fact that almost everyone with max level 4*s faces over-levelled PvE nodes and you are left with the implication that 4Thor is more important/powerful than Xforce at the highest tiers of the game (either counting PvP scoring or PvE scaling due to big old rosters).

Not to say the difference is entirely overwhelming. I know a few (not tons, but a few) players who score VERY highly off XForce with no 4Thor in PvP (no idea about their PvE scaling/scoring though). It helps that the ai is so lackluster in its efforts to match charged tiles that you can heavily abuse those with the right colour coverage after the ai triggers power surge.

lokiagentofhotness

babinro wrote:

simonsez wrote:

After the past few days around here, is this really the best time to start a "we need more nerfs!" chant?

Maybe?
The devs made their intentions pretty clear that they don't want 4* characters to be substantially stronger than 3*'s.
Fury and post nerf Thor will both fit in nicely along side the most powerful 3* characters but XF remains the standout 4* character.

I can't blame people for wanting to nerf X-Force so he belongs in the same category as the rest.

I love how 4*s aren't supposed to be more powerful than 3*s but are significantly more difficult to get and cost more to level up PLUS covers cost twice as much.

If this isn't a screw you by the devs I don't know what is.

Spoit

I've essentially soloed 395s with FT before, where the other chars died before they did anything useful. Even with the SS, x-force really does run out of steam pretty quickly after the first 20k or so health

Trilateralus

It seems I was a bit off on this. I'm not quite in 4* territory yet so I was going off my own (limited) understanding of the characters. Just want to say I'm not in favour of nerfing XF.

KrazyKeylime

lokiagentofhotness wrote:

babinro wrote:

simonsez wrote:

After the past few days around here, is this really the best time to start a "we need more nerfs!" chant?

Maybe?
The devs made their intentions pretty clear that they don't want 4* characters to be substantially stronger than 3*'s.
Fury and post nerf Thor will both fit in nicely along side the most powerful 3* characters but XF remains the standout 4* character.

I can't blame people for wanting to nerf X-Force so he belongs in the same category as the rest.

I love how 4*s aren't supposed to be more powerful than 3*s but are significantly more difficult to get and cost more to level up PLUS covers cost twice as much.

If this isn't a screw you by the devs I don't know what is.

if they are truly meant only to be marginally above then why do they cost double and not the same if that is really how the devs feel, if that is their intent then back it up and refund half the cost to everyone that bought any covers on any these 3*+ characters. stuff like this makes me wonder why i even like this game. these guys don't have a clue what they are doing if they nerf 4 thor cause other character that will be made in the future might make them op is some crazy thinking involved. I can probably make a build or 2 that doesn't have charged tiles in them at all could be count down tiles to achieve the same effect or even trap tiles, gambit charges an object on the battlefield that will explode with the slightest nudge. it can even have abilities be trigger. what is worse is that they are letting us brood in this mess without saying anything meaningful. i would love to see what they said to phaserhawk to calm him down.

Arondite

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Maybe now X-Force will move from an 8-AP "kill target Hood" to an 8-AP "do a reasonable amount of damage and generate cascades", and maybe Surgical Strike will be toned down from "11 AP: Win The Match straight-up in most cases" to "11 AP: weaken the opponent and do some significant damage", and the game's overall balance will be way better as a result.

...I'm being informed that the 4* they nerfed was not X-Force.

Dafuq, guys? Yeah, pre-nerf 4thor could straight-up one-shot anyone in the game. For 10 red and 9 blue AP. Single target. It's pricy enough that getting it off is not guaranteed, the AI can **** it up, and generally speaking it's not the end of the world. Slightly OP, but the elephant in the room is not 4thor. It's XForce. It's always been XForce. Because 4thor fills the role Magneto filled, giving powerful skills on colors XForce isn't using that complement the character beautifully and offering nearly rainbow coverage. It's just that 4thor has way more HP and does considerably more damage.

Although the Iron Fist nerf was a good idea. Seriously, a hardcore black accelerator for 5 AP? On pink?! What were you thinking?! Remember, one surgical strike ends the game! Didn't go far enough, if you ask me, it's still pretty dumb and would be unless if was pretty much useless or had different colors... But only because Surgical Strike is the most ridiculously overpowered skill since Magneto had a 5-cost blue.

This isn't hard to understand. X-Force completely warps the game's balance.

I get that everyone's upset, but I hate the argument that she takes out one guy for the huge sum of 19 ap. It's a mistake.

19 ap doesn't take out one guy. It takes out 2 guys if you're using it properly (read: after you've killed one target already). If 19 is killing one guy instead of two, you're misusing your skills or were in a desperate situation.

simonsez

Arondite wrote:

19 ap doesn't take out one guy. It takes out 2 guys if you're using it properly (read: after you've killed one target already). If 19 is killing one guy instead of two, you're misusing your skills or were in a desperate situation.

First off, for 7k damage, chances are you're not even taking out one guy. And even if you did, how is a 4 turn stun the same as taking out the other one? It's not like 5 charged tiles is likely to accelerate you into another killing move, so exactly what scenario are you envisioning here?

Dauthi

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Yeah, PvP is about speed, and 4or essentially does 26k damage for 19 AP: good luck finding anyone else that can even remotely do as much damage for that amount of AP. I mean sure you can argue that X-Force kills the first guy a lot faster than 4or which is completely true, but 4or is the one that does all the heavy lifting in the team in terms of damage. You can argue that both roles are equally as important which is probably true, but to say that X-Force is far and away better than 4or when 4or is the one dealing all the damage is ludicrous.

Almost as ludicrous as not considering defensive shielding. Nobody is scared of 4* Thor, especially compared to X-Force. Surgical strike will end you, while a very easily obtainable 8 green X-Force will force you to use a health pack at the very least.

I feel like they nerfed 4* Thor because she made killing 300+ nodes in PVE doable, and in some cases easy. When it comes to PVP however nothing offsets any game like a surgical strike from either side.

I'm not sure what your stance is on the nerf, but she will be mediocre at best in my opinion. I agree that her current state needed nerfed, but blue to 5 charged tiles? I hope that most people agree this was heavy handed.


To the OP, X-Force has been around longer, he should have been nerfed first. I feel like there would have been less protest since there was more time to obtain him while with 4* Thor many are just finishing her.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Yeah, PvP is about speed, and 4or essentially does 26k damage for 19 AP: good luck finding anyone else that can even remotely do as much damage for that amount of AP. I mean sure you can argue that X-Force kills the first guy a lot faster than 4or which is completely true, but 4or is the one that does all the heavy lifting in the team in terms of damage. You can argue that both roles are equally as important which is probably true, but to say that X-Force is far and away better than 4or when 4or is the one dealing all the damage is ludicrous.

Almost as ludicrous as not considering defensive shielding. Nobody is scared of 4* Thor. Surgical strike will end you however, while a very easily obtainable 8 green X-Force will force you to use a health pack at the very least.

I feel like they nerfed 4* Thor because she made killing 300+ nodes in PVE doable, and in some cases easy. When it comes to PVP however nothing offsets any game like a surgical strike from either side.

I'm not sure what your stance is on the nerf, but she will be mediocre at best. I agree that her current state needed nerfed, but blue to 5 charged tiles? I hope that most people agree this was heavy handed.


To the OP, X-Force has been around longer, he should have been nerfed first. I feel like there would have been less protest since there was more time to obtain him while with 4* Thor many are just finishing her.

If they keep 12 charged tiles then the per charge tile component of Smite will probably have to be halved. In PvP that'd be roughly like the rest of team goes 2 on 3 for first half of the match while losing 10r + 9blue which might be balanced. At 5 charged tile it should at least stun for 4 turns. Won't fix anything balance-wise but it's better than nothing.

Dauthi

Phantron wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Yeah, PvP is about speed, and 4or essentially does 26k damage for 19 AP: good luck finding anyone else that can even remotely do as much damage for that amount of AP. I mean sure you can argue that X-Force kills the first guy a lot faster than 4or which is completely true, but 4or is the one that does all the heavy lifting in the team in terms of damage. You can argue that both roles are equally as important which is probably true, but to say that X-Force is far and away better than 4or when 4or is the one dealing all the damage is ludicrous.

Almost as ludicrous as not considering defensive shielding. Nobody is scared of 4* Thor. Surgical strike will end you however, while a very easily obtainable 8 green X-Force will force you to use a health pack at the very least.

I feel like they nerfed 4* Thor because she made killing 300+ nodes in PVE doable, and in some cases easy. When it comes to PVP however nothing offsets any game like a surgical strike from either side.

I'm not sure what your stance is on the nerf, but she will be mediocre at best. I agree that her current state needed nerfed, but blue to 5 charged tiles? I hope that most people agree this was heavy handed.


To the OP, X-Force has been around longer, he should have been nerfed first. I feel like there would have been less protest since there was more time to obtain him while with 4* Thor many are just finishing her.

If they keep 12 charged tiles then the per charge tile component of Smite will probably have to be halved. In PvP that'd be roughly like the rest of team goes 2 on 3 for first half of the match while losing 10r + 9blue which might be balanced. At 5 charged tile it should at least stun for 4 turns. Won't fix anything balance-wise but it's better than nothing.

The problem was the AP gain to be honest, which is why I agree it should have been nerfed. 12 to 5 is absolutely crazy though. I felt 7ish would have been conservative, but plausible. I agree if they were going to be this heavy handed they should have left the stun in tact. She should have damage or a stun, and yet both are trivial now.

I still can't wrap my head around their decision.

Arondite

simonsez wrote:

Arondite wrote:

19 ap doesn't take out one guy. It takes out 2 guys if you're using it properly (read: after you've killed one target already). If 19 is killing one guy instead of two, you're misusing your skills or were in a desperate situation.

First off, for 7k damage, chances are you're not even taking out one guy. And even if you did, how is a 4 turn stun the same as taking out the other one? It's not like 5 charged tiles is likely to accelerate you into another killing move, so exactly what scenario are you envisioning here?

We are talking about the current iteration of the skill, not the new one here.

Context matters


I mean Jesus Christ the post I was addressing contained the words "pre nerf thor" in that order what else do you need

NighteyesGrisu

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Xforce is not, nor will ever be, as metagame warping as Sentry. That you're even saying that shows you have no idea how dominant Sentry Hood was, or how good.

Okay, that's overstating it. Sentry was fundamentally broken in a way unmatched by other characters; X-Force is simply way, way above the curve. Doesn't mean he's not, yanno, way above the curve and in need of nerfs.

he's not way above the curve, it's just that all the other 4* (except pre-nerf 4thor) are way below the curve...4* are supposed to be better than 3*, so why are people calling for nerfs when one of them actually fulfills that role? if that's not their role the devs should just remove the 3rd star from all of them and be done with it. Why should people grind for the top price if that one isn't even better than the one you get for top 100?

Unknown

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Xforce is not, nor will ever be, as metagame warping as Sentry. That you're even saying that shows you have no idea how dominant Sentry Hood was, or how good.

Okay, that's overstating it. Sentry was fundamentally broken in a way unmatched by other characters; X-Force is simply way, way above the curve. Doesn't mean he's not, yanno, way above the curve and in need of nerfs.

he's not way above the curve, it's just that all the other 4* (except pre-nerf 4thor) are way below the curve...4* are supposed to be better than 3*, so why are people calling for nerfs when one of them actually fulfills that role?

Because they're not. At least, they weren't back before the X-Force buff. Nick Fury was a big deal because he was the first 4* character who wasn't abysmal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never intended for 4*s to be a huge step up from 3*s the way 3*s were from 2*s. They were supposed to be trophy characters - maybe some of 'em were good, but they weren't supposed to define the meta. They were supposed to be like Invisible Woman, Elektra, and Star Lord. Why? Because they're damn-near impossible to get and having them be the strongest characters by more than a little (pre-nerf 4thor and X-Force are miles better than any other character in the cast) completely warps the meta and how the game works progression-wise.

This is because 4* progression does not work like 3* progression. To get a 4* cover, you need to hit 1000 points in PvP, win your bracket in a PvP or PvE event, or collect 2500 hero points (assuming you have one already).
But...
- The post-700 range is already filled with people who have maxed-out 4* characters, so if you don't have 'em, even a really top tier 3* setup is going to struggle, and if you see an 800-plus-point maxed-out 3* team, and you have Thor/XForce, your immediate thoughts should be "yay, easy points". So getting 1k is a stretch, especially now that shieldhopping and sentry bombing are both gone.
- Winning your PVP bracket? There's gonna be some guy in your bracket who has maxed-out 4*s and who is aiming for a thousand, so good luck.
- PvE? Might be an option, but 3* players get notoriously screwed over in PvE events, so while that may be an option for 2* players, it's not for us. Those level-300 nodes? People without maxed-out 4*s get those too. It's just we can't rely on things like 10k Smites and Surgical Strike -> Xforce -> Xforce to get us past that Ares who knocks off 7k health every time he gets two green matches.

Which means that it becomes a slow, grindy slog to 2500 hero points (assuming you can get the covers somewhere - I'm not sure if 4thor is even in daily rewards yet), or getting ridiculously lucky on tokens/bracket. Or, you know, ponying up something like 200 bucks (I can't remember if that covers just the hero points needed to buy the covers, or also the ISO - either way, it's ridiculous). And forcing your players to spend ludicrous amounts of money to compete is not a good business model. Makes me miss Sentry - sure, he was completely **** broken, but you know what? You didn't need to win your bracket to get a Sentry cover. And if you had a maxed-out sentry, you could hit 1300 for the 4* cover.

As it stands, though, 4* progression is completely broken, which means that if 4*s are the top, most powerful characters, then the game's progression is broken.

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Xforce is not, nor will ever be, as metagame warping as Sentry. That you're even saying that shows you have no idea how dominant Sentry Hood was, or how good.

Okay, that's overstating it. Sentry was fundamentally broken in a way unmatched by other characters; X-Force is simply way, way above the curve. Doesn't mean he's not, yanno, way above the curve and in need of nerfs.

he's not way above the curve, it's just that all the other 4* (except pre-nerf 4thor) are way below the curve...4* are supposed to be better than 3*, so why are people calling for nerfs when one of them actually fulfills that role?

Because they're not. At least, they weren't back before the X-Force buff. Nick Fury was a big deal because he was the first 4* character who wasn't abysmal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never intended for 4*s to be a huge step up from 3*s the way 3*s were from 2*s. They were supposed to be trophy characters - maybe some of 'em were good, but they weren't supposed to define the meta. They were supposed to be like Invisible Woman, Elektra, and Star Lord. Why? Because they're damn-near impossible to get and having them be the strongest characters by more than a little (pre-nerf 4thor and X-Force are miles better than any other character in the cast) completely warps the meta and how the game works progression-wise.

This is because 4* progression does not work like 3* progression. To get a 4* cover, you need to hit 1000 points in PvP, win your bracket in a PvP or PvE event, or collect 2500 hero points (assuming you have one already).
But...
- The post-700 range is already filled with people who have maxed-out 4* characters, so if you don't have 'em, even a really top tier 3* setup is going to struggle, and if you see an 800-plus-point maxed-out 3* team, and you have Thor/XForce, your immediate thoughts should be "yay, easy points". So getting 1k is a stretch, especially now that shieldhopping and sentry bombing are both gone.
- Winning your PVP bracket? There's gonna be some guy in your bracket who has maxed-out 4*s and who is aiming for a thousand, so good luck.
- PvE? Might be an option, but 3* players get notoriously screwed over in PvE events, so while that may be an option for 2* players, it's not for us. Those level-300 nodes? People without maxed-out 4*s get those too. It's just we can't rely on things like 10k Smites and Surgical Strike -> Xforce -> Xforce to get us past that Ares who knocks off 7k health every time he gets two green matches.

Which means that it becomes a slow, grindy slog to 2500 hero points (assuming you can get the covers somewhere - I'm not sure if 4thor is even in daily rewards yet), or getting ridiculously lucky on tokens/bracket. Or, you know, ponying up something like 200 bucks (I can't remember if that covers just the hero points needed to buy the covers, or also the ISO - either way, it's ridiculous). And forcing your players to spend ludicrous amounts of money to compete is not a good business model. Makes me miss Sentry - sure, he was completely tinykitty broken, but you know what? You didn't need to win your bracket to get a Sentry cover. And if you had a maxed-out sentry, you could hit 1300 for the 4* cover.

As it stands, though, 4* progression is completely broken, which means that if 4*s are the top, most powerful characters, then the game's progression is broken.

Remember you can also get 4* from PVP season rewards, and Thor red has already been a daily reward. I've been saving up to buy Thor covers from PVP - it's actually quite easy to save up around 2500 per season assuming you don't shield. I actually don't mind the grind - if I had all the top characters, there would be nothing left to aim for - and acquiring 3* covers is incredibly easy now.

NighteyesGrisu

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

As it stands, though, 4* progression is completely broken, which means that if 4*s are the top, most powerful characters, then the game's progression is broken.

so basically we agree on the cause of the problem, but disagree on the solution. Your solution would be to reduce 4* to nearly useless stuff like IW (let's face it, the only reason people grind for her is because they think at one point she'll be buffed/fixed). Instead of dragging 4* down to the level of 3* (at a much bigger cost both in effort7hp and iso) wouldn't it be much better to fix progression to make acquiring them somewhat easier and make them less rare (maybe add a new 4* progression reward in pve's too, etc).

dr tinykittylove

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

As it stands, though, 4* progression is completely broken, which means that if 4*s are the top, most powerful characters, then the game's progression is broken.

so basically we agree on the cause of the problem, but disagree on the solution. Your solution would be to reduce 4* to nearly useless stuff like IW (let's face it, the only reason people grin1d for her is because they think at one point she'll be buffed/fixed). Instead of dragging 4* down to the level of 3* (at a much bigger cost both in effort hp and iso) wouldn't it be much better to fix progression to make acquiring them somewhat easier and make them less rare (maybe add a new 4* progression reward in pve's too, etc).

Heck yeah. I'm a crazy collector too, and will never give up my bagman and yelena, but if all 4*s were supposed to be nothing but marginally useable trophies, why would anyone even bother, considering the cost of roster slots, covers and iso (counting time as cost, not just money). Not to mention the resultant effect on scaling. Who has time for that nonsense?

And I'm 100% f2p. Want a 4* of your own to play with? Work for them. Can't be bothered to work for them? Just sit back and and wait for daily supply, alliance season rewards and token pulls.

Come on. We're all hamsters on the MPQ wheel, at least let some of us pretend we're actually making progress and not just running for the next new 3* rinse and repeat.

simonsez

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never intended for 4*s to be a huge step up from 3*s the way 3*s were from 2*s. They were supposed to be trophy characters - maybe some of 'em were good, but they weren't supposed to define the meta. They were supposed to be like Invisible Woman, Elektra, and Star Lord. Why? Because they're damn-near impossible to get

They can't be "impossible". I have a fully covered IW, and I can assure you that I've never, ever gone out of my way to get one. I've never gotten one as a top rank event award, nor as a 1k progression. But somehow 13 covers (plus whatever I've sold) have ended up in my roster.

But even though your rationale has holes in it, I'd still love to hear the devs respond to your premise. If we're not actually meant to play with 4s, why do we keep playing??