A challenge to the devs

tanis3303

Ok devs, so lets talk about balance, and what is and is not too powerful. But I'm going to present you with a real world scenario before we do. Here's your set up: You are competing for Professor X, and you're doing pretty well! You're in top 10 in The Hunt, and the Savage Land sub ends in about 1 hour. But your rank is slipping! Oh noes! It's time to grind for some end-of-sub points to keep your ranking. But Thor was overpowered, so she got the nerf hammer. For this exercise, we are going to not use her. Magneto/Mystique was also overpowered, so we can't use them either. Those are your restrictions. Anything else, including boosts, is fair game. Got it? Cool. Beat this battle:



Pulled it off? Huzzah! Well played, that was a tough one. Ok, next one:



Yikes! How'd you do? Out of health packs yet? I hope not, cuz this one is next, and one of your heroes HAS to be 3* Black Widow:



*Phew! Beat them all did you? Great work! But guess what? So did everyone else you're competing with. So guess what you get to do now? That's right, beat them all again. And then a 3rd time. And then a 4th time. And probably a 5th time if you want to stay on top of your bracket! And as soon as your done, Florida opens up, so you have to go beat 18 more battles just like it or you might as well give up your hopes of getting the Prof, because the rest of your bracket will either pay their way into their wins (HP boosts/Health Packs) or they are facing drastically weaker versions of those battles because they are either new players or they intentionally limit their progression to keep their scaling under wraps, which flies in the very face of a rpg-like gaming experience.

This is the sad reality of PvE. I'm all for a good challenge, but that is tinykitty RIDICULOUS! Beating battles like that once every 8 hours or so is fine, but at the end, when your choices are beat them over and over and over again or lose your event placement, does that really strike you as reasonable? I don't have the answer to this problem, but it needs to be addressed. Thor gave me a reasonable chance to compete with these battles, once she is gone, I can't see a reliable way to stay on top of this game. I can't be the only one in this situation. And as my (and countless other players) progress slows to a halt, we'll lose interest, and you'll lose players. It's already started, I've seen tons of vets leave over this latest round of over-nerfs. It's a slippery slope, please do something to reign it in before it's too late.

Unknown

This is going to sound really logical but if they were any easier you'd have an even harder time keeping your place in the ranks. Besides how could you ever beat the players with lvl 94 rosters? That's right you don't lol this game is a cake walk for people that don't level their rosters and play for free minus the expenditure on roster slots. Best bet? Wait til it's a PvP reward and have fun over the course of two days and receive all 3 In reality you won't be using that character for a fair amount of months unless you're going to drop a few hundred $ on it in ISO and Covers.

LXSandman

I know this isn't a popular response. But if you want to stay in the top 10 of your bracket... that means you want to be one of the top 0.1% in the game.

So it should be hard.

The other issue is with the scaling that low rank (i.e level 96) teams receive. I see no problem with this. If this didn't happen then no one would be able to get any progression to 3* land done in this game at all. If you are upset about 4* Thor then you should be able to rock PVP, so have fun with that and leave the PVE to the 2* transitional players.

babinro

I have to disagree.

This isn't an issue and it doesn't have to be address. This is competitive PvE.

Use your very same argument and apply to PvP and I would hope you'd understand why it doesn't hold up. You are competing against OTHER PLAYERS. I get that PvE actually places you against static opponents but it's still a competition against other players.

Is the challenge hard for you? Guess what? It's hard for EVERYONE.

This was true even before the nerfs and will be true after the nerfs. It's not supposed to be easy to get the top tier rewards. If it was, this would no longer be a competitive form of play.

If D3 addresses scaling then the net result is a SIGNIFICANT increase in grinding. Instead of grinding tough nodes in the last 90 minutes you'll need to grind relatively easy nodes for the last 4 hours. Everyone is in the same boat so we'll all easily be able to grind them down to sub 10 points and it'll come down to who devotes the most time doing menial repeated battles quickly.

PvE is the most balanced competitive mode of play that exists in MPQ and for that reason it's really frustrating especially for vets. We lose out on our competitive advantages that exist in PvP and this makes room for the occasional 2*-3* roster at the top ranks.

Zifna

LXSandman wrote:

I know this isn't a popular response. But if you want to stay in the top 10 of your bracket... that means you want to be one of the top 0.1% in the game.

So it should be hard.

It's not that much easier to be top 50 in your bracket. You can say "That should be hard too." But if you said that, you'd be missing the point so hard that your dart isn't on the same wall as the board.

The situation is this:

1. To progress with a *** roster, you need ****.

2. Way more than 1% of players have *** rosters that are looking to progress to ****

3. There is no way to get **** reliably with a *** roster that isn't excruciatingly painful.

4. Excruciatingly painful isn't fun.

5. Games should be fun.

THIS IS A PROBLEM. There are a lot of ways to fix it (expanding rewards, alternate progression options, etc.), but you can't just be like "oh they made the game hard lol lol don't be a noob."

konannfriends

Yikes level 300 8ap gravity warp. Wats that like 2.5 k?

Devour like 2k

Ares sunder 4k?

tanis3303

Gravity warp hits for ~3,700. Sunder hits for 7,000+, onslaught anywhere from 3,000-5,000+. Chemical reaction hits for 4-5,000. Super "fun".

konannfriends

tanis3303 wrote:

Gravity warp hits for ~3,700. Sunder hits for 7,000+, onslaught anywhere from 3,000-5,000+. Chemical reaction hits for 4-5,000. Super "fun".

****? Are you serious. So one sunder and one gravity warp and xforce is dead. And maybe moonstone gets a photon blast off for 4k? Feel bad for you guys how can you guys compete?

Dartmaster01

konannfriends wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Gravity warp hits for ~3,700. Sunder hits for 7,000+, onslaught anywhere from 3,000-5,000+. Chemical reaction hits for 4-5,000. Super "fun".

****? Are you serious. So one sunder and one gravity warp and xforce is dead. And maybe moonstone gets a photon blast off for 4k? Feel bad for you guys how can you guys compete?

Pre-nerf 4thor

simonsez

babinro wrote:

You are competing against OTHER PLAYERS. I get that PvE actually places you against static opponents but it's still a competition against other players.

Is the challenge hard for you? Guess what? It's hard for EVERYONE.

Yes, it's hard for everyone, but the problem is that it's not equally hard for everyone. This is a good example of an event where they've overshot badly when it comes to trying to level the playing field. Looking at the leaderboard in the current PvE, 9 of the top 10 don't have a maxed 4. Most don't have any 4s at all. So while it might be hard for everyone, it's working out to be way harder on people with good rosters. And what happens after the nerf, when the tools we're using on nodes like this are neutered? It'll be impossible for anyone who's been relying on a GT to compete at all, without spending several events just getting your **** kicked and trying to get personal scaling down.

sinnerjfl

How about... when your nodes are past a certain level (200+), you also get a small bonus to the points you gain? Just to even things out a little bit.

konannfriends

sinnerjfl wrote:

How about... when your nodes are past a certain level (200+), you also get a small bonus to the points you gain? Just to even things out a little bit.

That's a huge unfair advantage. They just need to rework the damage output for the over leveled characters

darkmagearcanis

konannfriends wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

How about... when your nodes are past a certain level (200+), you also get a small bonus to the points you gain? Just to even things out a little bit.

That's a huge unfair advantage. They just need to rework the damage output for the over leveled characters

I agree on re-working the damage output. Say, regardless of level, abilities power should not go over that of their real highest level?
Ex. 94 Ares Sunder does 2003 damage to enemy. At level 362, it should stay the same, the only change should be to their max health at the 362 level and their tile match damage.

I believe this would balance out the PVE somewhat.

LXSandman

simonsez wrote:

babinro wrote:

You are competing against OTHER PLAYERS. I get that PvE actually places you against static opponents but it's still a competition against other players.

Is the challenge hard for you? Guess what? It's hard for EVERYONE.

Yes, it's hard for everyone, but the problem is that it's not equally hard for everyone. This is a good example of an event where they've overshot badly when it comes to trying to level the playing field. Looking at the leaderboard in the current PvE, 9 of the top 10 don't have a maxed 4. Most don't have any 4s at all. So while it might be hard for everyone, it's working out to be way harder on people with good rosters. And what happens after the nerf, when the tools we're using on nodes like this are neutered? It'll be impossible for anyone who's been relying on a GT to compete at all, without spending several events just getting your **** kicked and trying to get personal scaling down.

Look at the leaderboard for the current PVP and see 10 /10 have a maxed 4*'s. Why is it that both PVE and PVP have to be easy for 4* rosters?? i mean I guess you can just say "hey I have a 4* roster so I want to be the king of the world" but the reality is that everyone else needs to have a path to transition. PVE is that path.

simonsez

LXSandman wrote:

Look at the leaderboard for the current PVP and see 10 /10 have a maxed 4*'s. Why is it that both PVE and PVP have to be easy for 4* rosters?? i mean I guess you can just say "hey I have a 4* roster so I want to be the king of the world" but the reality is that everyone else needs to have a path to transition. PVE is that path.

Let me repeat what I said. They've overdone it trying to level the playing field and made it too easy for weak rosters. It's fine if you don't think PvE shouldn't reward people for the work they've put into building their roster, but it's absurd to argue that they should actually be at a disadvantage.

tanis3303

LXSandman wrote:

Look at the leaderboard for the current PVP and see 10 /10 have a maxed 4*'s. Why is it that both PVE and PVP have to be easy for 4* rosters?? i mean I guess you can just say "hey I have a 4* roster so I want to be the king of the world" but the reality is that everyone else needs to have a path to transition. PVE is that path.

Then we should be competing in different brackets. 4* guys vs 4* guys, and transitioners vs transitioners. At least then I know the rest of the people I'm slogging it out with to stay on top are fighting the same crazy difficult battles.

KrazyKeylime

the other problem is once you make it to 4* land your stuck there you need to keep using 4* cause 3*s don't cut it anymore

tanis3303

Ha! Sure they do! Elektra, Starlord and arguably Nerfthor are basically 3*s with more health. I'd classify fury as a 3*+. Bag Lady might as well be a 2*. Dino is hard to classify, because all he's good at is delaying matches with long animations and a billion health. Xforce is the only character that feels strictly better than the 3* character class, and since they've kind of drawn the line in the sand with regards to the 4* power curve, I expect him to get the nerf bat next.

lokiagentofhotness

tanis3303 wrote:

Ha! Sure they do! Elektra, Starlord and arguably Nerfthor are basically 3*s with more health. I'd classify fury as a 3*+. Bag Lady might as well be a 2*. Dino is hard to classify, because all he's good at is delaying matches with long animations and a billion health. Xforce is the only character that feels strictly better than the 3* character class, and since they've kind of drawn the line in the sand with regards to the 4* power curve, I expect him to get the nerf bat next.

so basically you work your butt off for a 4-star char and then they tell you "naw, it's too powerful we'll just make it like a 3star which you can get 13 covers of in about one season" negating all your hard work to get those characters to begin with.

and then they continue to pump out 4-star chars that are hard to get and cost 2500HP to buy!

scottee

My PVE bracket top 10 is exactly evenly split. Five with rosters above 200, and five with rosters under 150. Top 2 are neck and neck, and it's one 4* and one 2* roster. The rest of the top 10 almost exactly alternate between 4* roster and non-4* roster.

I'd say that's pretty close to even. In fact, a really low percentage of the playerbase has 4* characters above 200, so they're actually OVER-represented in my top 10 by percentage if it's supposed to be so much easier for 2* rosters.

SnowcaTT

scottee wrote:

My PVE bracket top 10 is exactly evenly split. Five with rosters above 200, and five with rosters under 150. Top 2 are neck and neck, and it's one 4* and one 2* roster. The rest of the top 10 almost exactly alternate between 4* roster and non-4* roster.

I'd say that's pretty close to even. In fact, a really low percentage of the playerbase has 4* characters above 200, so they're actually OVER-represented in my top 10 by percentage if it's supposed to be so much easier for 2* rosters.

The problem I see there is where are the 166's in this scenario? There are two transitions, the 2*->3* (get to 166), and the 3*->4*.

I don't have a problem with getting the 2*'s to 3* land faster: they need to get there! But should the 2*'s be getting to 4* land with more ease (faster?) then the 3*'s can get to 4*? Where is the 3*-4* transition possibility?