OK, which character would prevent you from complaining ?

GuntherBlobel

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Cyclops is an example of a character that no one complained about, because, you know, he was actually balanced and had interesting mechanics.

Pylgrim wrote:

You just wait until it starts appearing maxed more often. He just doesn't have an ability that immediately suggest that you need to change your playstyle to defeat him, but once they see he's powerful enough, tears will be shed.

I love playing Cyclops! Even at just 1/1/1, his powers work reasonably well, making him fun to play right out of the box. The powerset fits his character perfectly and his animations are great.

I also enjoy fighting Cyclops! And when the AI one-shots one of my characters with Full Blast, I'm really in awe of his power. I don't cry over it; I might even smile because even though I lost, it was a good fight.

Unless he's paired with IF and the black AP starts raining in on turn two! That's when I feel like there's no point to playing!

To answer your your question Arktos: I want more characters like Cyclops and less like IF. I get the feeling that you and I are not playing for the same reasons.

Unknown

There are some abilities that are conditionally powerful that are also balanced. There is no downside to the condition of, bring a powerful black user if you are running Iron Fist. It is not like they are making you combo him with beast to be powerful.

There were a million things they could have done to mitigate his power a little bit but they went with 5 ap for 9 black and a relentless attack tile, with a solid third power and decent HP.

Daken also has a 5AP power that does a lot for it's cost, but it also has some drawbacks. It removes strike tiles in exchange for damage, so gives with one hand and takes with another. Then it also converts tiles of the color it takes to cast to green. That simple simple concept changes it from, ragh 5 blue to make more green, to a self limiting power that the more you cast it the less able you are to cast it again and you can start to affect his healing power if you use it too much.

So it is fast, but it is also self limiting and has conditions and drawbacks to its use.

IF has none of that. There is no limiting, no conditions, just here have a pile of black, but be warned, you have to use your black before you can make more, oh no!

rednailz

While I agree with OP 100%, I'd also like to gripe that gatehring from a lot of posts in here it seems some people want every charecter to be exactly equal in power it seems. There's balance, and then there's leveling.

There's something to be said about actually playing the game, and choosing your roster to balance out the fight instead of having the developers nerf and buff everyone for you to level it out.

There are changes that are needed for better balance, but if it was leveld I'd just delete the app.

NorthernPolarity

rednailz wrote:

While I agree with OP 100%, I'd also like to gripe that gatehring from a lot of posts in here it seems some people want every charecter to be exactly equal in power it seems. There's balance, and then there's leveling.

There's something to be said about actually playing the game, and choosing your roster to balance out the fight instead of having the developers nerf and buff everyone for you to level it out.

There are changes that are needed for better balance, but if it was leveld I'd just delete the app.

You can't "choose your roster to balance out the fight" when two characters are so good that it doesn't make sense to run anything else. I think you're misinterpreting what a "balanced game" actually means: it's not that all the characters are exactly the same, it's that they're similar enough that theres actually some semblance of strategic depth, as opposed to just running xor for literally every PvP regardless of who the featured is and having it be optimal. A balanced game would actually lead to situations where you COULD choose your roster to balance out the fight. You cant have counter play when the best counter to xor is xor.

rednailz

NorthernPolarity wrote:

rednailz wrote:

While I agree with OP 100%, I'd also like to gripe that gatehring from a lot of posts in here it seems some people want every charecter to be exactly equal in power it seems. There's balance, and then there's leveling.

There's something to be said about actually playing the game, and choosing your roster to balance out the fight instead of having the developers nerf and buff everyone for you to level it out.

There are changes that are needed for better balance, but if it was leveld I'd just delete the app.

You can't "choose your roster to balance out the fight" when two characters are so good that it doesn't make sense to run anything else. I think you're completely misinterpreting what a "balanced game" actually means: it's not that all the characters are exactly the same, it's that they're similar enough that theres actually some semblance of strategic depth, as opposed to just running xor for literally every PvP regardless of who the featured is and having it be optimal. A balanced game would actually lead to situations where you COULD choose your roster to balance out the fight.

I wasn't refering to any specific 2 charecters, but you seem to be. I was speaking in general. My only point? There's balancing and then there's leveling. Balancing good - leveling bad.

NorthernPolarity

rednailz wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

rednailz wrote:

While I agree with OP 100%, I'd also like to gripe that gatehring from a lot of posts in here it seems some people want every charecter to be exactly equal in power it seems. There's balance, and then there's leveling.

There's something to be said about actually playing the game, and choosing your roster to balance out the fight instead of having the developers nerf and buff everyone for you to level it out.

There are changes that are needed for better balance, but if it was leveld I'd just delete the app.

You can't "choose your roster to balance out the fight" when two characters are so good that it doesn't make sense to run anything else. I think you're completely misinterpreting what a "balanced game" actually means: it's not that all the characters are exactly the same, it's that they're similar enough that theres actually some semblance of strategic depth, as opposed to just running xor for literally every PvP regardless of who the featured is and having it be optimal. A balanced game would actually lead to situations where you COULD choose your roster to balance out the fight.

I wasn't refering to any specific 2 charecters, but you seem to be. I was speaking in general. My only point? There's balancing and then there's leveling. Balancing good - leveling bad.

Could you link posts where people want leveling as opposed to balancing? I dont recall seeing any of those so i dont understand where you got your point from, hence why i gave my explanation as is.

rednailz

rednailz wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

rednailz wrote:

While I agree with OP 100%, I'd also like to gripe that gatehring from a lot of posts in here it seems some people want every charecter to be exactly equal in power it seems. There's balance, and then there's leveling.

There's something to be said about actually playing the game, and choosing your roster to balance out the fight instead of having the developers nerf and buff everyone for you to level it out.

There are changes that are needed for better balance, but if it was leveld I'd just delete the app.

You can't "choose your roster to balance out the fight" when two characters are so good that it doesn't make sense to run anything else. I think you're completely misinterpreting what a "balanced game" actually means: it's not that all the characters are exactly the same, it's that they're similar enough that theres actually some semblance of strategic depth, as opposed to just running xor for literally every PvP regardless of who the featured is and having it be optimal. A balanced game would actually lead to situations where you COULD choose your roster to balance out the fight.

I wasn't refering to any specific 2 charecters, but you seem to be. I was speaking in general. My only point? There's balancing and then there's leveling. Balancing good - leveling bad.

In the future I will try to be more specific to kill any confusion

For both our benefit I'm not going to dig through old streams and pick out examples, which is why I kept this pretty generic. It's an overall assesment I've seen of some general attitudes. That every charecter who isn't amazing should be buffed and anyone too good needs to be nerfed. I'm not talking about fixing obvious issues, but I recall seeing a lot of chatter on some things not being "fair", but IMO this is a game, and not everyone should be fair or have the same power. Just as in the MU some are stronger than others, and some are straight up duds. Next time I see an example, I'll straight up call in out

Roswulf

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Cyclops is an example of a character that no one complained about, because, you know, he was actually balanced and had interesting mechanics.

That's an interesting point and I went back and check Cyclops' ability, which converts up to 8 TUs to red for 7 yellow AP. Maybe red isn't quite the powerhouse color black is, but it doesn't seem that different from Iron Fist at least in scope. Yet we don't hear stories about how one casting of Mutant Revolutionary ends the game. Why? Because it's not any basic tiles. It's only one specific color. For one, this prevent you from doubling up on the abilities because you sure won't find 16 TUs on any remotely sane board so even if you have infinite uses of this ability, it's going to fizzle out at some point. More importantly, though, because it's a specific color this allows you to defend against it. If you study the board carefully against an ability like Mutant Revolutionary or Technopathic Strike you can usually see where the two colors will intersect and form a massive cascade, and from this you can sometimes (depending on what matches are available) figure out what match you must make to break up the cascade.

This also gives player some control so you don't feel totally helpless against it. Note that whether the color conversion is on basic tile or any particular color doesn't increase or decrease the likelyhood of the massive cascade (both are equally capable of creating monster cascadeS), but basic tile conversion abilities cannot be defended as you've no idea what tiles will get converted, while color->color conversion you can see where the two colors will overlap and at least try to stop it. You won't always be successful but I can usually mitigate a Doombot powered Technopathic Strike down to say 2 match 3 blacks, which I think is a reasonable outcome.

I'd add that there is a pretty massive break point between an ability costing 5 AP and one costing seven AP. That's two standard matches rather than three, and even more importantly that's the difference between an ability that can be automatically played Turn 1 with boosts and one which is at least marginally dependent on the board. A cheap AP generating ability like Iron Fists purple comes close to making the core match three mechanic of MPQ irrelevant.

veneretio

Roswulf wrote:

I'd add that there is a pretty massive break point between an ability costing 5 AP and one costing seven AP. That's two standard matches rather than three, and even more importantly that's the difference between an ability that can be automatically played Turn 1 with boosts and one which is at least marginally dependent on the board. A cheap AP generating ability like Iron Fists purple comes close to making the core match three mechanic of MPQ irrelevant.

Ya, came to say the exact same thing. There is a massive difference 5 AP and 7 AP it terms of how many rounds it actually takes on average to create this amount for a colour. The comparison between a 5 AP and 9 AP ability is even crazier. I think it's a pretty safe rule that should be followed that any ability that creates tiles should not cost less than 7 AP otherwise you're just asking to break the game.

Phaserhawk

If you take all 1,2, and 4*'s and just focus on 3* issues you can see where they potentially balance or create from.

If all 4*'s didn't exist what characters would be problematic?

I think when they created IF they didn't think about X-Force, or any 4*, just like I think 4*'s are only created to play with other 4* which makes you really wonder about Elektra and Star-Lord. That being said, if there are no other *'s other than 3, IF would still be problamatic, what baffles me further is this new hit point tier for Cyclops and IF but 6800 charactes who are superpowered are below that.

I'm not sure how many of you got to face off against maxed out 3/5/5 boosted IF's in the last PvP, but it was always scary, at any moment the AI could fall into 5 purple, use IFoKL and next thing you know, you just ate a Surgical Strike, lost Green or Red and then got smited or X-Forced, boom your at least a health pack down and possibly more if you can't recover.

No 5AP skill should cost you the game, that being said I'm not a big nerf fan, I would rather see characters buffed like IM40, Beast, etc. to have a nice pool of characters instead of just a handful worth using.

Unknown

arktos1971 wrote:

They are slightly OP, that's true, but they seem OP because most of the other characters are useless.

They need to introduce more characters like these, and we will AT LAST enjoy roster diversity.

In every game you will find players whose perception of balance is "Bigger is better". Essentially, they don't care about balance; they just want to have fun, like going to see a movie with spectacular effects, but 0 story. They have every right to enjoy themselves, but not by applauding decisions that make the game insufferable. On the other hand, you will find players who appreciate a finely balanced game because it offers greater variety and solutions to a problem. It is good we agree that they are a "little" OP and that most characters in the game are underwhelming, but because there is absolutely no way for the devs to properly buff all other characters, what players ask is to bring down a notch those OP characters. No one said that they should be the new Rags, but it has to happen. Now, if the nerf is a failure (it is a very straightforward nerf actually, so I don't see how they can mess this up), you will have every right to blame the nerf team for doing a lousy job, but not the players for wanting a good experience from the game.

Unknown

There are a lot of nerf cries on this forum, and I think that most of them are wrong. X-Force flirts with how much any character should probably be capable of doing, but doesn't allow for the sort of shenanigans that we could see with Mags or Spidey or Rag or even old-school CStorm/Thor.

IF is in a league of his own. Regardless of any other discussion about this game, what he does outclasses what other 3* characters can do. All of this "IF purple is half of a Thor yellow" nonsense is insulting to anyone who plays games and understands math. If taking "half" of Thor's yellow for half of the AP cost is reasonable, then I'll just take half of MNMag's purple for half of its cost and make 2 blue tiles for 4 AP. While I'm at it, I'd like half of Mystique's blue ability to go with it, because they don't combo together quickly and easily enough yet. Speed matters. A 12 AP ability shouldn't be as strong as using a 5 AP ability followed by a 7 AP ability; it should be stronger because you're not going to be able to use it as often. In the case of IF, using his purple twice in a row EITHER gives you as many black tiles as Thor AND then does more damage if you collect enough black OR makes a millions billions black tiles on the board and completely obliterates everything in a storm of cascades as the second one resolves. And it does those things for 2 less total AP than Thundergun.

So while I agree that this community is quick to call for a nerf, we can't pretend that IF isn't setting a new standard with his crazy purple ability. And if his ability set and power level are allowing 3* rosters to compete with 4* rosters, that's just more reason he should be nerfed. 4* dudes are supposed to be stronger than 3* (I think...although Invisible Woman and Elektra would beg to differ). In terms of everything but total max hit points, I'm not convinced that that's the case with IF.

Unknown

It all comes down to speed. Speed.

Unless the fundamentally change the entire dynamic of PVP, any character that speeds up kills will be hated by everyone else. The top players can max a char in 2 weeks. Everyone else just hates the game even more because you just tacked on months/years until they can even compete. And let's be real, unless you are dropping $$, it is years.

Guys like Ark and others don't care because they know that sweet feeling of 4 covers guaranteed in the first PVP match, covers guaranteed in first pve match if they are willing to grind, and easy access to ISO/HP through top level play. They already have Xforce/4Thor so they can actually put resources into these new chars. For the remaining 90% of the player base, MPQ just became even more lame. Hence the complain threads, and hence the complainers complaining about the complaint threads.

Simple solution, increase token draw rates so the low level dudes putting 30+ hours into this game each week are actually rewarded for time spent. 800 pt PVP finally! Congrats, here's your Moonstone token...again...for the 50th time.

Unknown

In this game, a 4 match move is roughly 4 times as strong as a 2 match move. Look at the damage for Jab Jab Cross in its weak and strong form (the latter can only be used when you have at least 12 AP) to see this illustrated in its raw form. The problem is that from a design point of view, AP generation abilities tend to be massively undercosted and further, sometimes the devs don't even seen to realize if you have a combo ability like Thunder Strike, the important part is the AP generation not the damage. Let's just take Thunder Strike at 12 AP, so let's split up. You can either have 6 AP Thunder Strike that adds 9 green tiles and nothing else, or you can have a 6 AP Thunder Strike that does 2486 damage and nothing else. You'd be crazy to not take the former, as the cascade caused by Thunder Strike generally do about 1K damage already and if you can't do better than 1486 damage from the green AP you collect from Thunder Strike I'm not even sure how you can build a team like that even if we assume Thor has no green skill (otherwise he can always do enough damage to make up the difference on green).

Since the cost of an extra match is exponential, this also means scaling effect/AP cost by the same back is a bad idea. Polarity Shift is 9 blue AP to place 5 blue tiles. If you divide that by half, you get Magnetic Field, which is 5 blue AP to place 2 blue tiles, a move that's known for creating infinite combos on turn 2. Actually, this move is slightly worse in terms of ratio, as if you're truly doing half/half it should be something like 4 blue AP to place 2 blue tiles which just be that much more broken.

Finally I don't see why people always make some argument for 'speed kills' because it's not like I'm aware of anyone whose goal in MPQ is to win as slow as possible. There's nothing inherently overpowered about a move that costs 6 AP versus 13 AP. If the move costing 6 AP is Psi-Katana and the move requiring 13 is Full Blast then the later is overpowered. If the move requiring 6 AP is Magnetic Field (well, it uses 5 AP actually) then the former is (way) overpowered. For the most part the current batch of overpowered moves tend to sit in the 3-4 match range (X Force, Surgical Strike, Power Surge + Smite) with the sole exception of Iron Fist. Now people complain about that probably because even if you're okay with 3-4 match moves being game ending that doesn't mean a 2 match move should be game ending. Had Iron Fist's purple been 8 purple AP it'd still be overpowered but at least it wouldn't be unprecedented in the current environment.

tanis3303

Moon 17 wrote:

There are a lot of nerf cries on this forum, and I think that most of them are wrong. X-Force flirts with how much any character should probably be capable of doing, but doesn't allow for the sort of shenanigans that we could see with Mags or Spidey or Rag or even old-school CStorm/Thor.

IF is in a league of his own. Regardless of any other discussion about this game, what he does outclasses what other 3* characters can do. All of this "IF purple is half of a Thor yellow" nonsense is insulting to anyone who plays games and understands math. If taking "half" of Thor's yellow for half of the AP cost is reasonable, then I'll just take half of MNMag's purple for half of its cost and make 2 blue tiles for 4 AP. While I'm at it, I'd like half of Mystique's blue ability to go with it, because they don't combo together quickly and easily enough yet. Speed matters. A 12 AP ability shouldn't be as strong as using a 5 AP ability followed by a 7 AP ability; it should be stronger because you're not going to be able to use it as often. In the case of IF, using his purple twice in a row EITHER gives you as many black tiles as Thor AND then does more damage if you collect enough black OR makes a millions billions black tiles on the board and completely obliterates everything in a storm of cascades as the second one resolves. And it does those things for 2 less total AP than Thundergun.

So while I agree that this community is quick to call for a nerf, we can't pretend that IF isn't setting a new standard with his crazy purple ability. And if his ability set and power level are allowing 3* rosters to compete with 4* rosters, that's just more reason he should be nerfed. 4* dudes are supposed to be stronger than 3* (I think...although Invisible Woman and Elektra would beg to differ). In terms of everything but total max hit points, I'm not convinced that that's the case with IF.

^This is very well said. IF's purple power is pretty overwhelming, that really can't be argued. However, as a 4* player, I can say that IF isn't changing the game for me at all. Now that his PvP is over, he's gonna sit on the bench, probably forever, while I continue to smite and slash everything that moves with Thorverine, IF teams included. I might bring him and Cage out together for some chuckles in easier PvE fights, but he's not going to replace Thor as my 3rd next to Xforce/Feature anytime soon. Is he going to help players beat my team in PvP? Sure, probably, but 90% of those hits are going to bounce off my shields anyway, so what do I care? While I don't necessarily disagree that IF's purple should probably cost at least 7 AP, I also don't see it as the giant boogeyman that everyone else does. It's a good power, but it's not turn-two-auto-win Sentry good. I say let the 3* guys have a new toy to rock the boat with for awhile, and if after a few weeks there's nothing to fight but IronVerine teams and no one can figure out how to beat them, maybe then warm up the nerf bat.

*After thought - I may also be undervaluing his power because I have yet to see it actually do what everyone is afraid of. The AI isn't going to use it back-to-back, so unless there's already a bunch of black on the board, the game is probably not over when they get to 5 Purple.

rbdragon

The simple answer to the question is no one. No matter who they introduce, no matter what powers they have or don't have, no matter what colors they use - someone will feel the need to complain about it. I don't know if it's human nature or what, but it's the way it is.

I've come to the conclusion that I could care less what powers each character has, or how much each ability costs - the fact is I am a collecter-type player, so I'm going to want the next shiny new toy, regardless. If I don't like their powerset because they are a bit weak - they just won't get used unless it's necessary, or I feel like "screwing around"....if they are "OP" - awesome! I get to play with an OP character!

I don't buy covers, so it takes me longer to get them usually - especially 4 , but that's my choice. If other's choose to get them and max them out asap, and I have to face them right away - oh well, that's why there's a skip button.....

What bothered me was when the Unknown listing was posted, there were calls for nerfs already....to a character that wasn't even in the game yet!!! I just don't get that.....

TL/DR - Let's just play the game for fun and stop worrying so much...

DaveR4470

I think Cosmo the Space Dog would prevent me from complaining.

Just my two cents.

racanrpa

Phaserhawk wrote:

No 5AP skill should cost you the game

That part only is why IF is overpowered. If you see other low cost powers, they all do regular to low damage, and doesn t fuel much other colors (Daken´s blue, Juggs when not buffed, Rangarok, Loki)
While i´m also not a fan of nerfs, between this and the fact that no matter what you do you can never prevent IF from firing Exquisite Technique (wich at maxed lv 5 is a 486 free hit every turn), I think he does need a little rework. I don´t know, may be placing a countdown tile plus the attack tile, so if you match the attack, he can fire again until that countdown ends, and making his a little more expensive, and that still makes him a great character
Regarding the OP, I agree there´s too much whining, we all know there are broken characters, who needs at least to take a look at them but they are playable and even that xforce/thorine is almost at every fight in the and game, they are beatable with lots of teams. The problem with IF is that it´s almost an instant win once you hit only 5 .
If you boost black and purple, one purple match, fire Iron Fist of K'un-Lun, with a bit of luck you have surgical strike ready or almost, and from there is downhill to the win. It s too close to what sentry bombing was, and almost everybody agreed that sentry bombing needed to go

Marc_Spector

arktos1971 wrote:

WHEN WILL YOU BE SATISFIED ????
So, what do you want really ?

c'mon, guys, NFL Superpro for the 2nd Anniversary four-star!! It'll be football season, after all.

konannfriends

i think people dont understand what makes a character balanced.

An Op character ussualyy has 2 nukes and a either a weak,or technical power

Aka
Xforce
Lazy Thor
Patch?
Sentry before Car accident
deadpool
Luke

Then there are good characters with a nuke, technical power, and or special tiles/stuns

Aka
Daken
Lazy Cap
Black Panther
Cmags
Captain Marvel?
4hor
R&G

then there are the characters who either cant deal good damage or are only the tag alongs because of high health

Pslocke
Hulk
Colossus
Gamora

Then there are characters whos powers are too technical and situational to be useful outside of counter picks

aka
Nick Fury
Inv Woman
Elektra
Mystique
Sentry after his beatdown
Daredevil
She hulk


Then there the obvious Xforce and his tagalong gods

Loki
Hood

And then theres good but missing something, Health? nuke?

Spidey
Storm
Gsbw




Theres a bunch i cant place because i dont have (Squirrel, IM M40) them but this is how i look at the game right now.

srry about spelling im always rushing