papa07 wrote: daibar wrote: papa07 wrote: Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this. The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross. Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile. Pretty sure Double-Double cross only works on Strike tiles. It does, which is why I said an ability like it. Just stealing the concept, not the actual ability.
daibar wrote: papa07 wrote: Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this. The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross. Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile. Pretty sure Double-Double cross only works on Strike tiles.
papa07 wrote: Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this. The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross. Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile.
GuntherBlobel wrote: EpicBeastmode wrote: But...it's luke cage his skin is unbreakable...it's always there like wolverines healing...these things make the game interesting. So it's not triggered...big deal....and so far I barely even see anyone using Luke cage outside his featured event, how can someone hardly even used ruin the game? The OPs concern is not as simple at them being over-powered. If it were, then the best solution would be to simply reduce the strength of these tiles. The OP is asking the Devs to remember that the game is called Marvel Puzzle Quest. These powers are supposed create problems to which there are some solutions that the player has some control over. Some powers in the game are more difficult to AP deny or counter: true, but discovering some way to combat them is a fun process and the reason why I play MPQ. As powerful as Blade is, I do have some control over the number of red tiles on the board. And against Patch's healing (Lvls 1-4) I can do the same, not to mention that BR counter-balances his healing. That's decent character design and its good enough for me to consider a fun challenge. But there's no puzzle or solution here. Even locking IF's and LC's passive tiles just leads to creating additional tiles (according to another post)! Thematically, its a mess too, since you can stun or down IF and he still manages to punch you in the head every turn until you match that stupid tile. I'm sure the Devs just wanted to do something different, but these powers are a major design error and it just goes to show, once again, how little thought goes into each new release. The OP is dead on. By making these powers "undeniable" the Devs removed an absolutely fundamental aspect of play that makes this game actually a game (albeit an unfair one, with a casino attached).
EpicBeastmode wrote: But...it's luke cage his skin is unbreakable...it's always there like wolverines healing...these things make the game interesting. So it's not triggered...big deal....and so far I barely even see anyone using Luke cage outside his featured event, how can someone hardly even used ruin the game?
Omega Red wrote: There is plenty of new strategy elements brought by free tiles. Do I just bring Laken and Patch to compensate? Maybe Spider-man and Blade? Do I bring Falcon and make a compromise, matching five blue early which denies me other colours but solves my problem for the rest of the match? Or maybe I bring Hulk or Captain Marvel? That's plenty of strategy you have to do, both pre-match and in-match. Cage and Iron First force you to generate and protect your own special tiles. How can that not be "puzzle"?
daibar wrote: Omega Red wrote: There is plenty of new strategy elements brought by free tiles. Do I just bring Laken and Patch to compensate? Maybe Spider-man and Blade? Do I bring Falcon and make a compromise, matching five blue early which denies me other colours but solves my problem for the rest of the match? Or maybe I bring Hulk or Captain Marvel? That's plenty of strategy you have to do, both pre-match and in-match. Cage and Iron First force you to generate and protect your own special tiles. How can that not be "puzzle"? Redbird is useless against Iron Fist and only partially works against Unbreakable. Laken takes 3+ green matches to overcome Cage's shield; a quarter of Patch's BR is nullified, still leaving the opponent strike tiles. Spider-man would take 4-5 shields to block IF's attack tile, Blade would also take at least 3 turns of optimal red. All these scenarios are without getting your tiles matched away. Sure there's strategy, but it seems to be such a narrow focusing of strategy that it makes the game too limited and possibly unfun if you don't have the right roster. Sure, a level 120 Captain Marvel will probably own IF (or a 140 Hulk?), but how many people have a full covered 120 Captain Marvel lying around?
arktos1971 wrote: Seriously ? 4 pages of suggestions about characters that AT LAST give a new meaning to roster diversity ? Iron Fist and Luke Cage passives are just awesome, and it's no wonder if most players think those characters are indeed good. You probably could not max them as fast as you wished to. Therefore, you can't enjoy playing with them. But you'll most probably change your mind once you can play them with their real power. That being said, we've had 2 PvPs in a row where those characters were buffed, so their power was over the top. What do you want ? Winning with GT/XF endlessly or try something new ? We needed characters like these, and I'm sure they are becoming very popular, and D3 makes a lot of money with them. And for once, I'm glad they do. Many of us were getting REALLY bored with the game, it was hightime we could just PLAY with the new characters and not only collect them in a roster endlessly growing...
El Satanno wrote: I'm seeing a lot of the same glib replies from the defenders here that dance neatly around the free and unconditional nature of both Cage and Iron Fist. Not a single * counter to either of these abilities in question exist without some manner of stipulation, usually AP. Make your strike tiles, use your stun, whatever, but these two guys are still doing their thing, every single turn until they die. That's it. You deal with their powers until you off them completely. As far as I can consider myself a rational person I don't see how we can say that they don't create a problem. *Yes, Doc Ock does come without much stipulation. But then you're stuck with Doc Ock on your team, which is a bigger problem than pretty much everything else.
bonfire01 wrote: Simple fact is the magnitude of the powers isn't all that big. If they were conditional or counterable they would have to be a fair chunk bigger to compensate. It is also the case that their magnitude is VERY difficult to increase. So whereas Daken CAN keep increasing your total strike tiles throughout a match (or Blade or anyone with an active power) the Cage and IF passives are entirely fixed (aside from falcon boosting them (and the new 4*)).
People also act as if passive powers are completely free when that's only half true. Yes you don't need AP to use them BUT the cost is that you are missing an active ability in that slot. It's a colour you need to cover some other way or risk wasted AP. So those passive powers need to be as impactful per cover used in them as an active would. THEY ARE NOT. I have zero problems when facing Cage's passive and I only find IF annoying to face cause of his purple. The attack tile isn't worthless but is a lot less annoying than a cheap and impactful active. For example... IMO DP's red is more of a pain to face than IF's purple.
While you can claim any active is counterable by denying AP it is also the fact you can only deny AP in multiple colours for so long before something will fire cause the AI has to collect SOMETHING every turn. So if I am winning fast enough that my AP denial will deny abilities til the end I am ALSO winning fast enough that IF's attack tiles hasn't done all that much. I also don't have to worry about a cascade feeding into scary usage of his attack tile because no matter how many AP IF makes it's still only 1 attack tile of exactly the same size.
In reality IF and LC's passives are no more than an irritation. The only way you should be losing fights is to BIG AI cascades and those passives are just colours the AI can't use if it cascades into them. If the complaint is that you can't faceroll through a match taking almost zero damage then GOOD. The person in question is giving up some of their incredibly small chance for a defensive win by having a slot without an active that the ai *might* cascade into to cause attackers an increased level of irritation to attack them. Don't see how that's not a balanced trade off.
Final point.... top players aren't using them except maybe to climb. These "uncounterable super moves" are apparently not scary enough to be worth swapping out for my massively damaging actives that actually win me matches.
daibar wrote: Omega Red wrote: There is plenty of new strategy elements brought by free tiles. Do I just bring Laken and Patch to compensate? Maybe Spider-man and Blade? Do I bring Falcon and make a compromise, matching five blue early which denies me other colours but solves my problem for the rest of the match? Or maybe I bring Hulk or Captain Marvel? That's plenty of strategy you have to do, both pre-match and in-match. Cage and Iron First force you to generate and protect your own special tiles. How can that not be "puzzle"? Redbird is useless against Iron Fist and only partially 'works' against Unbreakable. Laken takes 3+ green matches to overcome Cage's shield; a quarter of Patch's BR is nullified, still leaving the opponent strike tiles. Spider-man would take 4-5 shields to block IF's attack tile, Blade would also take at least 3 turns of optimal red. All these scenarios are without getting your tiles matched away. Sure there's strategy, but it seems to be such a narrow focusing of strategy that it makes the game too limited and possibly unfun if you don't have the right roster. Sure, a level 120 Captain Marvel will probably own IF (or a 140 Hulk?), but how many people have a full covered 120 Captain Marvel lying around?
bonfire01 wrote: @El Satanno... nice reply.
My first point was basically saying you are gaining consistency for the price of scalability or potential. While you'll never get nothing out of those passives you also have no room to get anything amazing. Trading off between consistency and potential is a common gaming mechanic and, as I was saying, if you take away the consistency of those abilities they would need a LOT more potential. This thread is littered with posts just trying to make them counterable without giving anything in return as if the magnitude of the abilities is something amazing... it isn't.
Second point you made is, IMO, disingenuous cause you're comparing it to 4 skills that aren't purely damage dealing. Psylocke makes tiles (and is underpowered), punisher's is a finisher (and otherwise underpowered) and Cage's black isn't meant to be fired at 6 AP, at 12AP the second hit is a lot more impressive. I will counter with DP's red. 2 matches in red gives in excess of 3k damage (assuming the target has much health to speak of). that's 6 (actually a lot closer to 7 if you remove the rounding up to 500 and compare to the 3299 max) turns of that attack tile. It's rare you can't get 2 red matches in 7 turns, more likely I could get 4 matches and even more thoroughly outclass the damage. I don't think most ppl would expect to lose a match if DP fires his red twice (it would suck though) let alone once. That's why I quantify it as an irritation (IF's passive) at most.
I'll agree that it being passive needs to be taken into account but the nature of the game now is that there is a LOT of damage floating around in active abilities. Most matches are over fairly quickly, and doing 7k damage to own IF doesn't take all that long at all.
My next point was meant to be that, if a game is going long enough for IF's tile to do a lot of damage, the chances are you would be taking active abilities off a different choice of hero which would be more impactful than the damage his passive has racked up. Also passives, by their very nature don't benefit from AI cascades. If the AI gets a ton of AP they can't use them to make more of those attack tiles BUT could use them on a black active from an alternative hero you picked. Since cascades are the only way ppl lose (aside from picking fights they shouldn't), you are essentially reducing the chances of your AI getting you a win (by having less actives for it to make use of if it gets a big cascade) in exchange for that chip damage.
Which feeds into the last point. By giving up some of your potential for a cascade win on defence you are gaining the irritation of someone knowing they will take at least some damage from your team. I don't see any reason there shouldn't be that option.... why shouldn't you be able to trade potential for consistency if you want? As for your final point.... IF's purple is too cheap (at least IMO) and is the only scary thing about him (his green is meh). No matter what you did to his passive that won't change (and IMO there is no justification for touching the passive anyway) and the purple is what needs looking at (again, IMO).