Luke Cage & Iron Fist passives are hurting MPQ

Unknown

But...it's luke cage his skin is unbreakable...it's always there like wolverines healing...these things make the game interesting. So it's not triggered...big deal....and so far I barely even see anyone using Luke cage outside his featured event, how can someone hardly even used ruin the game? The devs make useful characters...and ppl complain and argue it's overpoweredness and how it needs more balance... The devs make useless characters...and ppl complain about its weakness and how it needs a buff...and at the end of the day I still pick up my phone and play a game where my enjoyment of the game isn't being ruined by the things being proclaimed by the sky is falling group.

I am fully on board for customer feedback that helps the game get better, if a character truly breaks the game such as infinite turns, nearly instant wins etc...but I don't think Luke cage comes close to that and I will wait to see how these top players end up using IF outside of his featured to pass judgement...his passive is annoying but again, he's IF...maybe they should have given him some ordinary human ability like "calls the enemy a tinykitty" 9 countdown tile? I can only imagine the nerf calling will be in full force for the rumored 3 passive character...even if it makes total sense from a comic book perspective.

simonsez

I love complaining about this game. But I'm totally fine with these two. I like having characters that do something different and I don't see them as broken at all. All this hysteria is way overblown.

Phaserhawk

I saw someone already said IW does shut these guys down, perhaps with her upcoming rework she may indeed be that power we need. However, I don't agree with the Luke Cage hurting anyone. It delays the game, it forces you to rely on skills to take people down but it can be played around with Daken or Blade. Iron Fist's passive though is hurting MPQ.

This is where I see a problem

Cage--prevents 268 dmg

Iron Fist--causes 486 dmg

This right here shows you the devs mind set. They don't care about defense it's all about offense. If IF's passive would have been 268 just like Cage, fine but the power creep is starting to set in I believe.

Let's say you boosted 6 black.

Psylocke--Psi-Katana 1131 dmg plus 270 every turn. After 5 turns you did 2481 dmg
IF--Black passive 486 per turn.

---

After 5 turns you did 2430 dmg

So for nothing you did the same amount of damage as a 6AP skill and if your tile gets destroyed it comes right back, Psyloche needs another 6 AP.

Anyone else see the same problem?

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

I saw someone already said IW does shut these guys down, perhaps with her upcoming rework she may indeed be that power we need. However, I don't agree with the Luke Cage hurting anyone. It delays the game, it forces you to rely on skills to take people down but it can be played around with Daken or Blade. Iron Fist's passive though is hurting MPQ.

This is where I see a problem

Cage--prevents 268 dmg

Iron Fist--causes 486 dmg

This right here shows you the devs mind set. They don't care about defense it's all about offense. If IF's passive would have been 268 just like Cage, fine but the power creep is starting to set in I believe.

Let's say you boosted 6 black.

Psylocke--Psi-Katana 1131 dmg plus 270 every turn. After 5 turns you did 2481 dmg
IF--Black passive 486 per turn.

---

After 5 turns you did 2430 dmg

So for nothing you did the same amount of damage as a 6AP skill and if your tile gets destroyed it comes right back, Psyloche needs another 6 AP.

Anyone else see the same problem?

To me, I don't see a problem, I see a roster that helps to more capably win against xforce/4hor/featured. Luke cage/iron fist/featured has a lot of damage capability and helps protect as well. Maybe that was the intent? Who knows only the devs do, maybe the intent whether executed well or not, was to provide 3* players a more capable bunch to help compete more against xforce/4hor. Cyclops as well, maybe even the next couple of rumored characters too. Also during fist bump, since I ran a green user, I was forced on several occasions to match IFs passive tile in order to get xforce going so the damage output obviously can vary a lot by how many times that ends up getting matched. Nonetheless, I don't see these characters effecting me any more from where I stand. Just my perspective on it.

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

Anyone else see the same problem?

The main problem is that you're comparing one character seen as great vs. another seen as garbage. Let's look at Blade instead... boost purple, make a couple matches, and in 5 turns you'll do over 10k damage. Makes IF seem pretty lame in comparison.

babinro

EpicBeastmode wrote:

But...it's luke cage his skin is unbreakable...it's always there like wolverines healing...these things make the game interesting. So it's not triggered...big deal....and so far I barely even see anyone using Luke cage outside his featured event, how can someone hardly even used ruin the game? The devs make useful characters...and ppl complain and argue it's overpoweredness and how it needs more balance... The devs make useless characters...and ppl complain about its weakness and how it needs a buff...and at the end of the day I still pick up my phone and play a game where my enjoyment of the game isn't being ruined by the things being proclaimed by the sky is falling group.

I am fully on board for customer feedback that helps the game get better, if a character truly breaks the game such as infinite turns, nearly instant wins etc...but I don't think Luke cage comes close to that and I will wait to see how these top players end up using IF outside of his featured to pass judgement...his passive is annoying but again, he's IF...maybe they should have given him some ordinary human ability like "calls the enemy a tinykitty" 9 countdown tile? I can only imagine the nerf calling will be in full force for the rumored 3 passive character...even if it makes total sense from a comic book perspective.

My concern isn't about these abilities feeling game breaking but rather the direction of character design. I don't feel that non-conditional auto-renewing abilities with no real counter play is healthy for the game. This is regardless of the abilities actual power.

I consider Luke Cage to be a strong character but far from OP by any sense of the imagination. Even when boosted to level 395 he's annoying but not game breaking.

Iron Fist black is also balanced in terms of his black ability at level 166. His added damage is psychologically painful but in reality it's not single handedly downing teammates each battle.

That said, I am not a fan of the scaling of his black ability. When it deals 1000+ damage a turn in addition to scaled match damage doing ~1400 a turn to your characters before the use of any powers or line matches...I feel this sucks the fun out of those battles.

I also feel Iron Fist IS genuinely overpowered thanks to the low cost of his purple ability but that's another discussion for other threads.

GuntherBlobel

EpicBeastmode wrote:

But...it's luke cage his skin is unbreakable...it's always there like wolverines healing...these things make the game interesting. So it's not triggered...big deal....and so far I barely even see anyone using Luke cage outside his featured event, how can someone hardly even used ruin the game?

The OPs concern is not as simple at them being over-powered. If it were, then the best solution would be to simply reduce the strength of these tiles.

The OP is asking the Devs to remember that the game is called Marvel Puzzle Quest. These powers are supposed create problems to which there are some solutions that the player has some control over. Some powers in the game are more difficult to AP deny or counter: true, but discovering some way to combat them is a fun process and the reason why I play MPQ.

As powerful as Blade is, I do have some control over the number of red tiles on the board. And against Patch's healing (Lvls 1-4) I can do the same, not to mention that BR counter-balances his healing. That's decent character design and its good enough for me to consider a fun challenge. But there's no puzzle or solution here. Even locking IF's and LC's passive tiles just leads to creating additional tiles (according to another post)! Thematically, its a mess too, since you can stun or down IF and he still manages to punch you in the head every turn until you match that stupid tile. I'm sure the Devs just wanted to do something different, but these powers are a major design error and it just goes to show, once again, how little thought goes into each new release.

The OP is dead on. By making these powers "undeniable" the Devs removed an absolutely fundamental aspect of play that makes this game actually a game (albeit an unfair one, with a casino attached).

Kolence

Lerysh wrote:

A nice counter could be expanding Elektra's DDX ability to cover Protect and Attack tiles as well. "Oh here's a small special tile, I'll just be taking this large one thank you very much" Could work.

The way these powers are worded to automatically add a tile if none of its kind are already present, I feel the above idea would be the best way to counter them. Just give the enemy a few weak tiles and let him worry about matching them away to activate the strong tile again. Of course, it would be nice to have some version of such power available also in a 3* character. But even if a way to counter these powers were restricted to 4* land only it would still be better than no way at all like it is now.

cletus1985

bonfire01 wrote:

IMO it's a sad state of affairs that the AI is SO bad that ppl expect to win matches without ANYTHING meaningful happening to their team and as soon as a character is sufficiently idiot proof to guarantee an effect even in the incompetent AI's hands the cries for nerfing come.

It was exactly the same with Daken. His strike tiles were perfectly reasonably balanced BUT because the AI couldn't screw up passively gaining tiles he took a completely unjustified nerf and is now mostly used as a seed killer and/or a body that fills a space without requiring health packs. His threat (more an irritation) on defence was neutered.

As far as Cage and IF go...

I have no idea why anyone is complaining about Luke Cage's passive since it is nothing more than a speed bump. It's countered by strike tiles (why the hell are we talking about needing Loki when ANY decent strike generator counters it) but no-one uses strike generators much at all outside Patch for Hulk bombing (Maybe Blade but more for his attack tiles. Shame his health is meh and no regen) cause there really isn't much in the way of decent strike generators for PvP. Blame the ppl whining about every strike tile generator being OP and needing a nerf.

IF's attack tile is pretty annoying though. Hard to counter with protect tiles because of it's size and unless you stun him out there's no point in removing it. On the OTHER hand, his health isn't anything to write home about, his green is meh and denying a single colour (purple) isn't all that onerous (although his purple is pretty damn cheap). On the OTHER hand, the damage his attack tiles does, over the number of turns it takes to kill him (with his so-so health total) is no more than one decent damaging ability from another hero and if the AI didn't suck so hard other heroes would get an ability off before you downed them.

It isn't that it's overpowered, it's just that it's reliable in the face of stupidity whereas all your other defensive heroes are not.

100% This.

I'm still a 2-3* transitioner and there is nothing OP about these abilities. They're annoying for sure, but it essentially just makes the ai somewhat competitive, not OP'ed. No need for any kind of nerf.

GuntherBlobel

cletus1985 wrote:

They're annoying for sure, but it essentially just makes the ai somewhat competitive, not OP'ed. No need for any kind of nerf.

Abilities that make the AI competitive also makes a player pushing around things at random "competitive." Sounds boring to me. I realize that we're not playing chess here, but even so, the AI doesn't make a good standard for fun gameplay.

There's a balance in ability design that the Devs get right most of the time, so that the AI can "play" but typically at a at lower level than a thoughtful player. They abandoned this philosophy recently and I'm not sure its a good thing.

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Anyone else see the same problem?

The main problem is that you're comparing one character seen as great vs. another seen as garbage. Let's look at Blade instead... boost purple, make a couple matches, and in 5 turns you'll do over 10k damage. Makes IF seem pretty lame in comparison.

lol, true. Psylocke so needs a rework

Unknown

Proposed solution to IF's black to make it less undeniable but maintain the same spirit of the move.

If there are no Iron fist countdown timers on the board, create one. When timer goes off deal 486 damage.
Still free, still does 486 damage a turn , still double dips on strike tiles.

BUT
If I match his tile away, I don't take damage this turn.
If I stun Iron Fist, I don't take damage this turn
If i manipulate his countdown timer (OBW, Bagman...) I don't take damage for a few turns.

There would be ways to counter him, and he still is relentless and will hit you the moment you stop countering him, but it is not guaranteed damage, it can be stopped, and gives you just a little time to set up your own strategy to work on.

Only complaint I have about cages protect tile is that it protects everyone on him team instead of just him, and he actually slows the game down which I personally think is a good thing. If he did need "fixing" I would make his passive, heal a set amount anytime he takes damage. Keep it non-true healing but he would shrug off every cut and scratch but not regenerate like patch. Might actually produce excelent synergy with other protect tile users instead of making the rest of them obsolete.

BigOldBob

I don't think their passives are op. You can overcome cages protect tile with strike tiles or spike damage and you can use true healers vs if or put hulk/captain marvel in front.

Cages protect tile cost you only time, not the victory.
And IFs attack tile can be handled without wasting ap and can be used for a jumpstart under certain circumstances.

Unknown

Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this.

The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross.

Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile.

Unknown

^^

Interesting, I like it.

Or we need an antifalcon.

Passive: Match blue and reduce the power of 3 enemy special tiles.

Depower the special tiles and then it becomes a game of protecting the weak tiles so they don't repop at full strength.

Unknown

papa07 wrote:

Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this.

The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross.

Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile.

Pretty sure Double-Double cross only works on Strike tiles.

Pylgrim

I don't know what OP is talking about. Counters already exist. Cage's protect tile giving you trouble? Bring Daken and/or Blade to easily overcome it with strike tiles. Iron Fist's attack tile lowering your HP? Bring Spiderman and/or Cage to nullify it. Problem solved.

cletus1985

GuntherBlobel wrote:

cletus1985 wrote:

They're annoying for sure, but it essentially just makes the ai somewhat competitive, not OP'ed. No need for any kind of nerf.

Abilities that make the AI competitive also makes a player pushing around things at random "competitive." Sounds boring to me. I realize that we're not playing chess here, but even so, the AI doesn't make a good standard for fun gameplay.

There's a balance in ability design that the Devs get right most of the time, so that the AI can "play" but typically at a at lower level than a thoughtful player. They abandoned this philosophy recently and I'm not sure its a good thing.

Simply nullify them with Strike/Protect tiles of your own, not really that difficult to control. If they popped one out every turn regardless if there was one on the board or not, then it would be OP'ed, but as is it's not difficult to counter.

SnowcaTT

Lloyd Christmas wrote:

I certainly wouldn't find it unreasonable to tweak these passive powers to be more on par with Falcon's blue (needs 5 blue AP) or Blade's green (10 red on the board). At least then you are given the chance to deny the opponent those colors, therefore having a fighting chance.

Best idea I saw in this thread. No ability should have zero cost/downside, if they don't have an AP cost they should have some sort of other requirement (or cost).

Funniest idea I saw in this thread is to counter with Loki black (twice, to get ahead). Only 22 black to get ahead of their zero AP turn one skill!

My suggestion: instead of Strike/Defense tiles, make them "character" tiles with that character icon surrounded by a fist or shield icon. There can only be one of those icon tiles on the board at a time. If it gets stolen? Well, you don't get a new one and they have it until it goes away somehow. THEN Loki and others would be a worthwhile use against these tiles.

Unknown

daibar wrote:

papa07 wrote:

Late to the thread so I may have missed someone else saying this.

The counter to both of these would be an ability like Elektra's Double-Double Cross.

Steal the Protect/Attack tile while giving up 3 small value Protect/Attack tiles. Until those 3 tiles are off the board, Cage/Fist will not produce a new tile.

Pretty sure Double-Double cross only works on Strike tiles.

It does, which is why I said an ability like it. Just stealing the concept, not the actual ability.

Cryptobrancus wrote:

^^
Or we need an antifalcon.

Passive: Match blue and reduce the power of 3 enemy special tiles.

Depower the special tiles and then it becomes a game of protecting the weak tiles so they don't repop at full strength.

Like this idea. Would also be good with them adding this to Falcon yellow. Every yellow match and he affects 3 special tiles from either team