PVE or PVP in disguise?

orbitalint

Phantron wrote:

The mix of characters at the top of PvE event varies because the scaling varies per event. There's no way Meet Rocket & Groot is on the same level of scaling as Simulator Hard. The higher the overall scaling factor per event the more advantageous it is to have a highly developed roster if only because enemies cannot possibly get past level 395. Doing well is a relative thing. In Meet R&G I don't recall seeing a node above level 250. That doesn't mean it was easy to do well because if you scale that back for a weaker roster they might be seeing low 100s which is relatively easier as at that level you might have a straight up stat advantage for a transitioning roster, while no roster has a raw stat advantage over an enemy at level 250 (the 4*'s level 270 certainly don't scale as well in raw stats compared to an enemy 1/2/3* at 250). Sure the guy with everyone has a lot of cheap options, but it's awfully hard to beat someone who has a straight up raw stat advantage over his opponent. For example, a long time ago there was a lazy Thor + 2 Grenadier node. On the high end of scaling, there's no way you're racing that node so you have to use Spiderman for an infinite stun (and you got to have it down by turn 3 or so because the first CotS will likely wipe out your team). On the lower end of the scaling, they can actually take the CotS and possibly outrace Thor, and just even having that as an option is often better than any cheap combo you can do.

I can see that but having a developed roster and leveling your characters aren't the same issue. I have 10-12 "optimally" covered 3*'s and every one of them except hulk is level 135. Regardless of scaling factor being low or high for an event, I haven't seen any event that has posed problems for my roster and never butted up against a ridiculous scaling on an event either (Simulator excluded ). If my scaling is usually 60-70% of the 395 cap, I'm still having trouble seeing an advantage for leveling the roster. If my scaling were consistently 95% of the 395 cap, sure, let's give my guys the health boost to keep up. Maybe I'm just in this weird grey area but I'm still fighting characters 50+ levels above my roster so its not a stat advantage for my team, yet, I'm not getting punched by scaling anywhere close to the exceptional stories of whatever the max scaling is for an event and a full roster. And yes, I play the heck out of PVE, so my personal scaling isn't 0.

Unknown

Pve is not worth the effort you put in. You have to spend a week to just get 3 covers (progression, placement, alliance). Progression is insanely difficult to keep t150, and i get at least 1.5x progression every time. Alliances won't want you very much if you don't score well in pve unless you are great in pvp. So basically the only cover that is guaranteed is the progression reward if you work hard enough. But when you are getting a cover a day from DDQ and 6 covers a week from pvp (placement + alliance) and also any other tokens and season progressions, that pve cover is a waste of time.

I completely agree that pve should be all progression rewards. Give away a total of 3 3* covers but make the 3rd cover at least 3x progression reward now. If people don't like that they can't get all the progression rewards, don't play .

babinro

I agree completely with DaveR4470 in that this event is clearly worthy of the PvE moniker even though it's deliberately competitive by design.

onimus wrote:

That is the PVP component of PVE that makes it intolerable. There is no limiter, there is no skill component or roster component that dictates a stopping point and you cannot stop until the thing is over if you want to place well.

This is the part that really resonates with me about the OP's post.

It REALLY sucks that we have no equivalent to shielding in PvE. You absolutely have to set aside time at the end of every sub to grind down nodes in order to compete based on end times. If life gets in the way and you miss out on the last 3 hours than you've lost any shot at a truly good rank.

This doesn't sit well.

The OP suggests a non-competitive mode similar to Gauntlet but I can appreciate why D3 doesn't want to do this. They want to control the actual amount of 4* covers that are awarded along with 3*'s and the like. This would be extremely hard to do with just scaling a prog rewards.

How do you solve this problem AND address the mandatory end time grind issue?

Complete removal of rubberbanding and node value increases with scaling
To illustrate with an example:
- First time you fight a node it's worth 1000 points
- 2nd time you fight that same node it's only worth 800 points and the enemies have scaled in level
- 3rd time you fight that same node it's only worth 600 points and the enemies have scaled further
- repeat until you reach 1 and then continue to grind for 1 point if you choose to.

Nodes still scale based on player roster just as they always have all we do is remove the need to farm things at the end of the subs. Players could grind nodes down to 1 point in the first few hours if they were so inclined and score just as well as someone else who spread out the same number of clears over a day.

I understand that truly competitive PvE's could end up being a grindfest for 1 point matches but it's effectively the same amount of EFFORT that we have now just with the freedom to choose your own timing.

Note: Lowest node values should actually differ based on difficulty to prevent people for endlessly farming the easiest nodes for 1 point. The base node could range from 1 point, to 5, 10, 15, 20 points depending on the challenge of the matchup.

Unknown

orbitalint wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

While pvp will be all advanced rosters in the t10, pve will have a mix of veteran and transition rosters.

Which again, this is why it doesn't make sense to not level your characters.

Maybe I'm just doing it in a way that I'm ok with but I've capped out at 135, myself, without many drawbacks in PVP or PVE. I can own PVE like anyone else that puts in the time and I can snag top 25 in PVP if and when I want to. I don't want to spend hp for top 5, so I don't see reasons to go above level 135, regardless of what the devs have said.

The biggest draws for this strategy have been - 1) always having ISO when I need it to level people, those last 30 levels cost almost as much as the first 100 for just one character, compound that for an entire roster and that sounds painful and 2) I don't slog through 395's ever. I don't know the scaling algorithm and yes, I'm supposed to take proportional damage relative to my characters but you don't get that much more damage for leveling XF from the 150 (where mine is) and 270. I dont consistently see anything above 300 in any event, yet pumping character levels could eventually get me to 395 somewhere and I'd have to take longer to slog through those fights. What exactly is the benefit of leveling then if I'm meeting my PVP goals?

My Surgical does 432/tile vs 522 max, so I'm losing 900 damage per 10 tile strike. BP black does 3100 damage vs 3700, CoTS 3800 vs 4500. Nothing in there sounds like I can eat through an extra 5-6k worth of goon life any faster just because I leveled my characters. My gut is telling me that my damage output scales slower than the health of opponents in PVE at a certain point. I'm ok with taking a little more damage as a % of my lower total health in PVE to keep my scaling down (they have said that is a factor) and getting 85% of the damage output, seems like it is a winning strategy for PVE.

Just some food for thought about us non-PVP Luddites.

I don't max most of mine either. I have four tiers for 3* 166, 141, 118 or 102 depending on factors. The only onesi max for 3* are hulk, lt, cage, patch, laken, colossus, and grocket.

simonsez

Given that we have a Gauntlet every few weeks, and a new DDQ every single day, how 'bout we just leave PvE the way it is for the people who DO enjoy grinding and fighting for top ranks? Is it really necessary to completely cater to the people who can't stand the existence of any competitive aspect to PvE whatsoever?

Shadow

Wait... I don't get it... this was an issue previously for those in the EU where the end time was like 4am for them. But the OP chose the slice that was supposed to be the end time most suitable for him. Why is the OP sleeping 4 hours before the end time and then complaining about it here?

Also, there are now 2 game modes that aren't competitive in nature. Gauntlet and DDQ. If the original PvE format which was meant to allow new players and transitioners to compete on a more level ground doesn't suit your taste, you can always leave it alone and get the new character from PvP instead.

lokiagentofhotness

Shadow wrote:

Wait... I don't get it... this was an issue previously for those in the EU where the end time was like 4am for them. But the OP chose the slice that was supposed to be the end time most suitable for him. Why is the OP sleeping 4 hours before the end time and then complaining about it here?

Also, there are now 2 game modes that aren't competitive in nature. Gauntlet and DDQ. If the original PvE format which was meant to allow new players and transitioners to compete on a more level ground doesn't suit your taste, you can always leave it alone and get the new character from PvP instead.

Yeah, here's no reason why anyone should be asleep nowadays during the end of any PVE. And any player who's not brand new should know by now the last few hours are crucial. If I'm awake and OP is at 50 and I'm at 51 damn straight I'm gonna do a little more grinding to get to 50 because he's not moving.

Same with PVP. Don't be asleep when the PVP ends, that's a bad idea for any kind of placement, and the time slices makes it so you always can choose a time when you'll be awake.

I say this as someone who completely hates grinding for PVE, and almost burnt out several times during competitive ones. But that's a burden I place upon myself - if I don't put in the work I shouldn't expect to place top 10. And I'm definitely not choosing a time slice where I'll be unavailable. Which isn't to say that PVEs can't be improved (more than top 50 receiving a 4* cover would be nice, or 50-150 receiving two covers even better), but I can't really fault others for being willing to put in the work that I'm not willing to put in as the PVE currently stands.

As others have said, they actually have given us several non-competitive options like DDQ and The Gauntlet. But ultimately this game is a player-versus-player game and it's why I think so many competitive people play it instead of playing another game that might be truly player-versus-environment like angry birds (which is a great game! but it's the competitiveness that drives me to keep playing this one instead of that).

Unknown

I don't think there's anything sacred about the competitive PvE that's worth keeping but it's not like we'll suddenly get something better if we get rid of all competitive PvE so I"ll take them for now until they come up with something better. I don't think Gauntlet is inherently a better format. People like it because the amount of effort needed to get 3 3*s is very little compared to any other event. If only 1% of the population can complete the Gauntlet it wouldn't be nearly as well received. Until they've rules tightening up your team selection/boosts/TUs the Gauntlet is a good distraction but I don't see it replacing any of the competitive PvE. DDQ is probably meant to be a tier below the competitive events and it serves fine in that capacity and I wouldn't mind a scaled up version of DDQ but again, just because we get rid of all the current competitive PvE event is no guaranteed we'll get an improved version of DDQ so I'll hang on to them for now until D3 develops some better stuff.

rbdragon

If you went to sleep with 4 hours left, why was that the time slice you chose? I'm not criticizing - but I think it's a legitimate question.

The main problem with PvE is the monotony of it - fighting the same battles over and over and over again. It's boring, and the fact that 20 is a strong possibility as your reward when you beat each node is more than frustrating. The competitive aspect of it used to bother me a lot when it was 2.5hr refreshes and ended at a set time for everyone. Now that you can choose an end time that is to your liking, and with 8 hr refreshes, the grind is much easier to handle.

I have a decent roster, including several fully maxed 3 characters - but my 4hor is weak, and therefor no matter how hard I try, PvP gets to be a pointless endeavor most of the time once I get to around 700. It doesn't bother me though - I understand it and take my top 50 prize happily. At least in PvE, I have control over how well I do.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Given that we have a Gauntlet every few weeks, and a new DDQ every single day, how 'bout we just leave PvE the way it is for the people who DO enjoy grinding and fighting for top ranks? Is it really necessary to completely cater to the people who can't stand the existence of any competitive aspect to PvE whatsoever?

This.

Also, PvE not worth grind, what? How on earth are people getting HPs then? PvP awards very little or costs quite a bit when you do want to go for higher tier rewards. Last PvE was 2,5 days with only 2 'grind points' yet it still netted me 400 HP. Do you know what is not worth effort? Gauntlet. Especially now with Deadpool daily, amount of work you have to put in to get 3 covers is insanse. This is coming from someone who cleared it every time 100%. If they ever replace normal PvE with Progression only based you can bet they won't put 300+ HP per event in it and you can kiss 80%+ f2p players goodbye since game would require HP purchases to keep with HP slots and not many people care for mobile game with mmo subscription cost.

Unknown

rbdragon wrote:

If you went to sleep with 4 hours left, why was that the time slice you chose? I'm not criticizing - but I think it's a legitimate question.

Not the OP, but if I wanted to try and join late you may not get the option of a new time slice which suits you. That is the only reason I can think of and since you joined late your much more likely to fall many places during the end push.

Unknown

rbdragon wrote:

If you went to sleep with 4 hours left, why was that the time slice you chose? I'm not criticizing - but I think it's a legitimate question.

I just entered the bracket that was fresh at the time I wanted to play.

Time slices are a great thing in many ways.

But if I had joined the shard that would have been convenient to me, I would have started at around 800. Meaning I would have almost no shot at top 50 anyway.

They take so long to fill up that the only way they actually work is if you join the second the PVE starts.

I waited out the first day or so, hoping to save myself some time since, like I said, I knew I was going to reach the progression reward limit within 1 to 2 days, which I did.

And when I was prepared to join, shards 2,3 and 4, which would have been best for me, were all being reported as 500-800.

So I could have waited another day or 2 to wait for them to fill up, or I could join shard 5, which at the time had something like 100 people.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Given that we have a Gauntlet every few weeks, and a new DDQ every single day, how 'bout we just leave PvE the way it is for the people who DO enjoy grinding and fighting for top ranks? Is it really necessary to completely cater to the people who can't stand the existence of any competitive aspect to PvE whatsoever?

I guess it never occurred to me that someone would actually enjoy playing something that gives you 20 ISO per match when you stopped getting progression rewards 50,000 points ago.

I always viewed progression rewards as something to strive for. Like I said, in PVP you can be valuable while getting just 66% of the progression rewards. I thought maybe that would be a better structure for PVE. Make it so progression rewards are the reason to grind and play optimally.

Don't make them insurmountable, but make them feel like you accomlished something, like in PVP.

I remember before I got 1k every PVP, reaching that next progression reward felt great. When I first got to 900 for the extra token, I was ecstatic. Then when I get to the 1100 additional 3 star cover, I felt so good about my progression.

In PVE, you can hit the progression rewards withint 24 hours, then the other 4 to 6 days are literally worthless other than keeping your rank for the placement rewards.

For me and, based on the reception of this thread, perhaps many other people, it does not feel rewarding at all grinding for days past the last progression reward, only for a non-guaranteed attempt to get an additional 1 cover.

5 or 6 more days of grinding...for 1 or maybe 2 more covers.

Such a terrible return on your time.

Unknown

onimus wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Given that we have a Gauntlet every few weeks, and a new DDQ every single day, how 'bout we just leave PvE the way it is for the people who DO enjoy grinding and fighting for top ranks? Is it really necessary to completely cater to the people who can't stand the existence of any competitive aspect to PvE whatsoever?

I guess it never occurred to me that someone would actually enjoy playing something that gives you 20 ISO per match when you stopped getting progression rewards 50,000 points ago.

I always viewed progression rewards as something to strive for. Like I said, in PVP you can be valuable while getting just 66% of the progression rewards. I thought maybe that would be a better structure for PVE. Make it so progression rewards are the reason to grind and play optimally.

Don't make them insurmountable, but make them feel like you accomplished something, like in PVP.

I remember before I got 1k every PVP, reaching that next progression reward felt great. When I first got to 900 for the extra token, I was ecstatic. Then when I get to the 1100 additional 3 star cover, I felt so good about my progression.

In PVE, you can hit the progression rewards within 24 hours, then the other 4 to 6 days are literally worthless other than keeping your rank for the placement rewards.

For me and, based on the reception of this thread, perhaps many other people, it does not feel rewarding at all grinding for days past the last progression reward, only for a non-guaranteed attempt to get an additional 1 cover.

5 or 6 more days of grinding...for 1 or maybe 2 more covers.

Such a terrible return on your time.

If everyone analyzed the time/benefit ratio, a lot of people would stop playing as soon as they hit progression, and settle into 400th or so. A lot of people do that now.

If you want to do that, why don't you do that? Why is it a problem that rank is the thing to strive for as opposed to progression? Leave some more rewards for the newbies. Take 4-6 days off and breath some fresh air! Spend time with your family!

The people playing past final progression are playing for rank and rewards. You really have to ask yourself why they are doing something they don't 'want' to do, if they don't think it's worth it. It seems self-absorbed to say, 'Well, this is the way I want to play, so we should redesign it so everyone has to play this way."

Unknown

daibar wrote:

onimus wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Given that we have a Gauntlet every few weeks, and a new DDQ every single day, how 'bout we just leave PvE the way it is for the people who DO enjoy grinding and fighting for top ranks? Is it really necessary to completely cater to the people who can't stand the existence of any competitive aspect to PvE whatsoever?

I guess it never occurred to me that someone would actually enjoy playing something that gives you 20 ISO per match when you stopped getting progression rewards 50,000 points ago.

I always viewed progression rewards as something to strive for. Like I said, in PVP you can be valuable while getting just 66% of the progression rewards. I thought maybe that would be a better structure for PVE. Make it so progression rewards are the reason to grind and play optimally.

Don't make them insurmountable, but make them feel like you accomplished something, like in PVP.

I remember before I got 1k every PVP, reaching that next progression reward felt great. When I first got to 900 for the extra token, I was ecstatic. Then when I get to the 1100 additional 3 star cover, I felt so good about my progression.

In PVE, you can hit the progression rewards within 24 hours, then the other 4 to 6 days are literally worthless other than keeping your rank for the placement rewards.

For me and, based on the reception of this thread, perhaps many other people, it does not feel rewarding at all grinding for days past the last progression reward, only for a non-guaranteed attempt to get an additional 1 cover.

5 or 6 more days of grinding...for 1 or maybe 2 more covers.

Such a terrible return on your time.

If everyone analyzed the time/benefit ratio, a lot of people would stop playing as soon as they hit progression, and settle into 400th or so. A lot of people do that now.

If you want to do that, why don't you do that? Why is it a problem that rank is the thing to strive for as opposed to progression? Leave some more rewards for the newbies. Take 4-6 days off and breath some fresh air! Spend time with your family!

The people playing past final progression are playing for rank and rewards. You really have to ask yourself why they are doing something they don't 'want' to do, if they don't think it's worth it. It seems self-absorbed to say, 'Well, this is the way I want to play, so we should redesign it so everyone has to play this way."

It was not intended to come off as self absorbed.

Like I said, it just never occurred to me that anyone could possibly find it enjoyable. I assumed, possibly correctly, that if people could get the Iron Fist covers without coming back over and over again well after the progression rewards were over, they would take that route.

But maybe people enjoy grinding for placement rewards. It doesn’t make any sense, but then again I’m sure some things I do don’t make sense to other people as well.

*shrug*

dr tinykittylove

Nivrax wrote:

Also, PvE not worth grind, what? How on earth are people getting HPs then? PvP awards very little or costs quite a bit when you do want to go for higher tier rewards. Last PvE was 2,5 days with only 2 'grind points' yet it still netted me 400 HP. Do you know what is not worth effort? Gauntlet. Especially now with Deadpool daily, amount of work you have to put in to get 3 covers is insanse. This is coming from someone who cleared it every time 100%. If they ever replace normal PvE with Progression only based you can bet they won't put 300+ HP per event in it and you can kiss 80%+ f2p players goodbye since game would require HP purchases to keep with HP slots and not many people care for mobile game with mmo subscription cost.

I enjoy the Gauntlet for the challenge of it. Most of the time I don't need any covers, and it's just one clear and done.

Pve I like for the variety of opponents, especially when the opponent has your usual characters and you have to figurw out another way to deal. Grinding for placement, not so fun, but yes, it's often good hp income.

veneretio

I'm very conflicted on this issue. I really like that PvE allows me to compete with everyone in a PvP like experience. There is a definite rush of hitting top 50 with my lackluster 2* lineup over many superior lineups because I out grinded them.

That said, it's exhausting. I'll fully admit that it burnt me out on the game completely. The Deadpool Daily is the only thing worth my time now. The return on everything else doesn't matchup with the time invested. I hate to say it, but the DPD probably ruined the game for me because it's so much more generous than any of the other modes. I guess waste is a bad word. It changed my experience. Previously, I would have played every PvP and PvE event pretty hard because I needed to. Now I'm only really pushing those when I want the cover.

It sounds ungrateful because the DPD is generous that now what I want is the PvE and PvP rewards to get in line with it in order to get me to play them again... but it's true. That's what I need in order to actually care about those again.

simonsez

onimus wrote:

I guess it never occurred to me that someone would actually enjoy playing something that gives you 20 ISO per match when you stopped getting progression rewards 50,000 points ago.

I'd say it's the 4* and extra 3* that's a bit more compelling than the 20 ISO per pop.

Were you equally confused when people were racking up 6k in PvP? If you want to talk about pointless grinding, that far surpasses anything anyone's ever done in PvE, yet I don't recall any threads suggesting we do away with rank awards in PvP.

Lidolas

onimus wrote:

rbdragon wrote:

If you went to sleep with 4 hours left, why was that the time slice you chose? I'm not criticizing - but I think it's a legitimate question.

I just entered the bracket that was fresh at the time I wanted to play.

Time slices are a great thing in many ways.

But if I had joined the shard that would have been convenient to me, I would have started at around 800. Meaning I would have almost no shot at top 50 anyway.

They take so long to fill up that the only way they actually work is if you join the second the PVE starts.

I waited out the first day or so, hoping to save myself some time since, like I said, I knew I was going to reach the progression reward limit within 1 to 2 days, which I did.

And when I was prepared to join, shards 2,3 and 4, which would have been best for me, were all being reported as 500-800.

So I could have waited another day or 2 to wait for them to fill up, or I could join shard 5, which at the time had something like 100 people.

I'm surprised it took until the second page for someone to bring up time slices.

You weighed the benefits and risks of waiting and 'having' to choose a slice that was not an optimal time for you and it didn't work. Hopefully you learned from that. The time slices are the PvP equivalent of shields. If you choose not to use them, then it's hard to feel sympathy.

I agree with Dave, competitive PvE is not the same as PvP. I also agree with others that the competitive part is over-emphasized by the rewards offered. If there were better progression rewards, there would be a lot less complaints about PvE.

Unknown

Lidolas wrote:

onimus wrote:

rbdragon wrote:

If you went to sleep with 4 hours left, why was that the time slice you chose? I'm not criticizing - but I think it's a legitimate question.

I just entered the bracket that was fresh at the time I wanted to play.

Time slices are a great thing in many ways.

But if I had joined the shard that would have been convenient to me, I would have started at around 800. Meaning I would have almost no shot at top 50 anyway.

They take so long to fill up that the only way they actually work is if you join the second the PVE starts.

I waited out the first day or so, hoping to save myself some time since, like I said, I knew I was going to reach the progression reward limit within 1 to 2 days, which I did.

And when I was prepared to join, shards 2,3 and 4, which would have been best for me, were all being reported as 500-800.

So I could have waited another day or 2 to wait for them to fill up, or I could join shard 5, which at the time had something like 100 people.

I'm surprised it took until the second page for someone to bring up time slices.

You weighed the benefits and risks of waiting and 'having' to choose a slice that was not an optimal time for you and it didn't work. Hopefully you learned from that. The time slices are the PvP equivalent of shields. If you choose not to use them, then it's hard to feel sympathy.

I agree with Dave, competitive PvE is not the same as PvP. I also agree with others that the competitive part is over-emphasized by the rewards offered. If there were better progression rewards, there would be a lot less complaints about PvE.

I don't want to address each thing you said because at a certain point it just gets repetitive.

Bu the bottom line is, time shards wouldn't be necessary if you didn't NEED to play until the last second in order to place well.

PVP isn't like that. Gauntlet, DDQ. None of them require you play until the whistle blows. But PVE does. Because it has this PVP component that makes it so that if you don't place well, you may as well not have even played it.

Say you play from the first day, the second the PVE opens. I don't know why you would, but let's just say that is your playstyle.

You're in line for a top 150 finish. You've already tripled the max progression limit. And you either fall asleep on your phone or something comes up in the last 4 hours so you are unable to play and you fall out of the top 150.

Regardless of the time shard. Regardless of the convenience of your time shard vs others. Let's just say something occurs and you fall out of the top 150.

You may as well have not even played. Sure, you got 1 3 star cover. But the whole point of the PVE was to win Iron Fist.

I just don't see how this can be looked at and considered a fair or worthwhile system of distribution.

Maybe I'm just complaining for no reason. I have no idea. I just think PVE would benfit so much more if, say, at twice the progression limit there is now, you get the featured character regardless. Then it might justify having to play for 5 or 7 days straight.

In it's current incarnation, I think PVE is just boring and repetitive. If people like that, then that's fine. I'll be the odd duck then. But I have a feeling people don't.