Increase odds of non-20 iso rewards

hesjingixen

Now that we're doing 8 hour refreshes, it would be really nice if D3 increased the odds of getting the rewards other than 20 iso from a node. It's a little depressing to see a mini-event ending and half my nodes are still 1/4.

Unknown

Something I've thought of for a while is that every time you get 20 iso, it halves the likelihood you get 20 iso from that node the next time. So it's 50/50 the first time, 75/25 the second, 87.5/12.5 the third, etc. Wouldn't eliminate the 20 iso prizes, but would make the "I grinded this node 20 times and never got anything but 20 iso" scenario go to nil.

simonsez

I still say get rid of the 20 ISO altogether, unless you've cleared all the prizes. And even then, 20 ISO might've been nice when the game first came out and we were all leveling our 1*s, but now, it's pretty pointless. Why not give us something a little more useful like a standard token or a boost pack?

FaustianDeal

Seems like they should just award the 4 good prizes for the first 4 clears. Random order is fine. After you have won all the 'good' prizes then start heaping on the 20-ISO door prize.

And the 20-ISO door prize could be made a little bigger in 'non-story' PVE events. Don't necessarily raise the 'story' baseline - we shouldn't be grinding level-3 doom-bots any more than some of us already are.

JamieMadrox

FaustianDeal wrote:

Seems like they should just award the 4 good prizes for the first 4 clears. Random order is fine. After you have won all the 'good' prizes then start heaping on the 20-ISO door prize.

And the 20-ISO door prize could be made a little bigger in 'non-story' PVE events. Don't necessarily raise the 'story' baseline - we shouldn't be grinding level-3 doom-bots any more than some of us already are.

This is the same Idea I put forth a while back and it's still my favourite.

Unknown

JUST GET RID OF THE 20-ISO "reward".

I'm willing to bet that 20 ISO is awarded more than anything else in PvE and it downright maddening. It's a freaking insult to defeat overpowered goons or teams & spend 5 minutes on a battle and then only be "rewarded" with 20 ISO. Thanks for 20 ISO that I'll likely have to give back when skipping in PvP anyway

When I get 20 ISO, I put the game down.

ShanePHallam

Obviously I am down for more ISO, but I will say the Deadpool Daily was a nice influx of Iso, so I doubt we see any increased ISO benefits anytime soon.

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

JUST GET RID OF THE 20-ISO "reward".

I'm willing to bet that 20 ISO is awarded more than anything else in PvE and it downright maddening. It's a freaking insult to defeat overpowered goons or teams & spend 5 minutes on a battle and then only be "rewarded" with 20 ISO. Thanks for 20 ISO that I'll likely have to give back when skipping in PvP anyway

When I get 20 ISO, I put the game down.

I mean, statistically, it's probably not awarded more than anything else...anytime a node is only cleared once, it's never rewarded at all. And until a node is completely cleared of rewards, it's only given out half of the time. So if the number of casual players is higher than the number of crazy grinders (and I think it is), then there are a lot of people who aren't being haunted by the recurrent spectre of 20 Iso-8.

That being said, it's the worst. I mean, until we can sell boosts it's technically better than +crit damage (which, by the way, is no better than the + H.A.M.M.E.R. boosts that everyone used to hate), but not by enough to matter. If they added to your 20 ISO-8 "reward" the same number that was being added to your enemy levels's base, suddenly it wouldn't feel like a kick in the junk and we would all be able to move on happily. Actually, they should just do that thing I just said. Like, immediately.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

JUST GET RID OF THE 20-ISO "reward".

I'm willing to bet that 20 ISO is awarded more than anything else in PvE and it downright maddening. It's a freaking insult to defeat overpowered goons or teams & spend 5 minutes on a battle and then only be "rewarded" with 20 ISO. Thanks for 20 ISO that I'll likely have to give back when skipping in PvP anyway

When I get 20 ISO, I put the game down.

I mean, statistically, it's probably not awarded more than anything else...anytime a node is only cleared once, it's never rewarded at all. And until a node is completely cleared of rewards, it's only given out half of the time. So if the number of casual players is higher than the number of crazy grinders (and I think it is), then there are a lot of people who aren't being haunted by the recurrent spectre of 20 Iso-8.

That being said, it's the worst. I mean, until we can sell boosts it's technically better than +crit damage (which, by the way, is no better than the + H.A.M.M.E.R. boosts that everyone used to hate), but not by enough to matter. If they added to your 20 ISO-8 "reward" the same number that was being added to your enemy levels's base, suddenly it wouldn't feel like a kick in the junk and we would all be able to move on happily. Actually, they should just do that thing I just said. Like, immediately.

" And until a node is completely cleared of rewards, it's only given out half of the time."

That is not entirely true. After a node is cleared once, the chance of winning 20 ISO is 50%. What actually happens.... well, my experience with PvE after 500 days is that they are 20 ISO events.

Considering the amount of grinding done, I'm willing to bet that 20 ISO is handed out at a higher percentage than the other rewards. Can I prove this? Of course not, but it certainly seems plausible.

DaveR4470

Are you sure about that 50%? That's not how I interpret the awards. This is what I always assumed was the case (based on grinding the Prologue for almost every reward it offers):

Each node with multiple rewards has a different % chance for each reward based on rarity. So say the rewards are 70 ISO, 100 ISO, 200 ISO, and a regular token (taken from the first Maggia Assault node in Manhattan, btw). The rewards for a given node are grouped into the same normal/silver/gold categories that covers are grouped into. Then, a % chance is given to each option. Say, in this example, the token, 70, and 100 rewards are "normal", and the 200 is "silver". Each of the token, 70, and 100 are given, say, a 30% chance of reward, and the 200 is given a 10% chance.

When you clear the node, the game matches an RNG to a spread from, say, 1-100 to determine what you're awarded. So numbers 1-30 are token, 31-60 are 70 iso, 61-90 are 100 iso, and 91-100 are 200 iso. If you pull a 36 from the RNG, you're awarded 70 iso. If you pull a 93, you get 200 iso.

The kicker is that these numbers are fixed and unchanging. The first time you clear a node, you're guaranteed to get one of the 4 options. Say you get the token. If you clear it again, and pull number 22 from the RNG, you don't get another token -- you get 20 iso. So for your second clear, you have a 30% chance of 20 iso. Say you get the 70 iso on clear #3. Now,when you play a fourth time, you have a 60% chance of getting 20 iso, and a 40% chance of a new reward. And so on.

So your chance of getting 20 iso depends (as I see it) on the statistical probability of being awarded the remaining prize(s) in the node, which will vary depending on the "rarity" of the remaining prizes themselves, a factor that's pre-set into the node.

If you know the % chance of each prize, you can mathematically work out your expected mean clears for all the prizes, and all sorts of math stuff. But that's beside the point.

I'm okay with the system as is... what bugs me is that it says "NEW REWARD" for everything, including the 20 iso rewards, when you clear. That's just a big tease.

simonsez

DaveR4470 wrote:

I'm okay with the system as is...

You sound like someone who doesn't grind PvE...

Unknown

I can't (bother to) find the posts that address this, but there was a change in the manner of reward distribution fairly early in the game's lifespan. In the beginning, as I understand it, you had an equal chance to earn any of the 4 rewards when you cleared a node. If, upon a subsequent reclear, you "earned" a reward you'd already received, it was replaced by 20 ISO-8. This made it increasingly difficult to earn fresh rewards from a clear, and players didn't like it. The fix was to change it so that, after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8. This presumably made it less frustrating at the end of a node by making it slightly more frustrating toward the beginning.

I don't have access to the game code or anything, and it's possible I misinterpreted the change as it was reported to me. But for what it's worth, that's been my understanding of PvE reward distribution for the last year or so.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

I can't (bother to) find the posts that address this, but there was a change in the manner of reward distribution fairly early in the game's lifespan. In the beginning, as I understand it, you had an equal chance to earn any of the 4 rewards when you cleared a node. If, upon a subsequent reclear, you "earned" a reward you'd already received, it was replaced by 20 ISO-8. This made it increasingly difficult to earn fresh rewards from a clear, and players didn't like it. The fix was to change it so that, after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8. This presumably made it less frustrating at the end of a node by making it slightly more frustrating toward the beginning.

I don't have access to the game code or anything, and it's possible I misinterpreted the change as it was reported to me. But for what it's worth, that's been my understanding of PvE reward distribution for the last year or so.

"....after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8."

I remember when D3 made this change and I believe you are correct....and that is why I was willing to bet that 20 ISO is handed out more than any other reward in PvE.

brysonian

I agree the iso 20 reward is a nuisance. It is rediculous to have to work the nodes down to 1 point just to get all four rewards.The event with the 12 hour subsets this is what happened. Every node went down to 1 point before I got all 4 rewards from the nodes. With some of these events and node difficulties it is just an insult to work the node and then get iso 20. Just drop the iso 20 drop already. The game would be much more enjoyable if you could get 4 rewards in 4 passes through the nodes.

Unknown

A lot of great ideas! The game likes to scale everything else. Why not scale this reward too? Fill in the blank with any number of fair ways to implement it. I like the "scale for the maximum base number with diminishing returns to a minimum number" way.

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

I can't (bother to) find the posts that address this, but there was a change in the manner of reward distribution fairly early in the game's lifespan. In the beginning, as I understand it, you had an equal chance to earn any of the 4 rewards when you cleared a node. If, upon a subsequent reclear, you "earned" a reward you'd already received, it was replaced by 20 ISO-8. This made it increasingly difficult to earn fresh rewards from a clear, and players didn't like it. The fix was to change it so that, after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8. This presumably made it less frustrating at the end of a node by making it slightly more frustrating toward the beginning.

I don't have access to the game code or anything, and it's possible I misinterpreted the change as it was reported to me. But for what it's worth, that's been my understanding of PvE reward distribution for the last year or so.

"....after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8."

I remember when D3 made this change and I believe you are correct....and that is why I was willing to bet that 20 ISO is handed out more than any other reward in PvE.

I find the information logical but the conclusion incorrect, possibly. Probability is math at a difficult level where perception is altered but if you have a 50/50 chance of earning 20 ISO-8 for every win then wouldn't the number of initial "guaranteed" victories tilt the scales to the conclusion that you are most likely to win a reward? Even if it's now only a slight or diminishing advantage?

CrookedKnight

I'd wager that less than half of all battles result in a 20 ISO reward because of all the first-time clears, but at the same time 20 ISO is almost certainly the single most common post-battle prize because there are seven different things you could get if you win a "real" reward (standard token, 70 , 100 , 200 , 250 , 500 , and critical boost), but every time the coin-flip goes the other way you get the same 20 .

Unknown

BBTBob wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

I can't (bother to) find the posts that address this, but there was a change in the manner of reward distribution fairly early in the game's lifespan. In the beginning, as I understand it, you had an equal chance to earn any of the 4 rewards when you cleared a node. If, upon a subsequent reclear, you "earned" a reward you'd already received, it was replaced by 20 ISO-8. This made it increasingly difficult to earn fresh rewards from a clear, and players didn't like it. The fix was to change it so that, after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8. This presumably made it less frustrating at the end of a node by making it slightly more frustrating toward the beginning.

I don't have access to the game code or anything, and it's possible I misinterpreted the change as it was reported to me. But for what it's worth, that's been my understanding of PvE reward distribution for the last year or so.

"....after the first clear, you had a flat 50% chance of earning a new reward and a 50% chance of just getting 20 ISO-8."

I remember when D3 made this change and I believe you are correct....and that is why I was willing to bet that 20 ISO is handed out more than any other reward in PvE.

I find the information logical but the conclusion incorrect, possibly. Probability is math at a difficult level where perception is altered but if you have a 50/50 chance of earning 20 ISO-8 for every win then wouldn't the number of initial "guaranteed" victories tilt the scales to the conclusion that you are most likely to win a reward? Even if it's now only a slight or diminishing advantage?

Consider the amount of grinding done in PvE. We can speculate, but we'll never know. What has your experience been? I am rarely able to clear the nodes and get all 4 rewards without getting 20 ISO, 20 times. I don't even try anymore. I use PvE for ISO and tokens and don't even try to finish in the top. Being awarded 20 ISO is good for one thing; aggravation.

brysonian

Just did 4 nodes from wakanda set and all 4 gave me iso 20. Can the game creators please listen to the users and get rid of this? It is extremely frustrating to work a harder node for basically nothing. Feels like a cash grab making iso 20 so dominant in the rewards. I wasted quite a bit of hero points in the last subset trying to earn the actual rewards. If the goal of the game is to make people walk away feeling aggrivated and devaluated great job mission accomplished.

simonsez

BBTBob wrote:

if you have a 50/50 chance of earning 20 ISO-8 for every win then wouldn't the number of initial "guaranteed" victories tilt the scales to the conclusion that you are most likely to win a reward? Even if it's now only a slight or diminishing advantage?

If that above information was correct, yes. If you clear a node n times, your expected number of 20 ISO awards would be (n-1)/2. So your average number of such awards would be (n-1)/2n, which approaches 50% as n gets larger, but until n is infinity, it never gets there.

However, this math asssumes you stop once all the real awards are gone, because at that point the probability shifts from 50% to 100%. But since many players do keep grinding after all the awards are gone, that's why the people who are saying 20 ISO is the most common award, are correct.

DaveR4470

simonsez wrote:

DaveR4470 wrote:

I'm okay with the system as is...

You sound like someone who doesn't grind PvE...

I grind PvE all the time. But I don't view PvE as something that does or should provide me with unlimited rewards. Each node, to me, has 4 rewards. Once those are awarded, I don't expect anything else. The 20 ISO is fine, but I don't view it as something I 'earned'. It's just there. If I'm grinding, it's for event points, not in the expectation of a node reward every time out.

If the concern is "I'm not getting enough ISO from PvE", that's a completely separate issue. Increasing the 20 ISO 'consolation prize' would be one way to put more ISO out there for players, but that doesn't make the 20 ISO consolation prize a broken game mechanic.