Everyone pumped for Iron Fist and X-Force combo?

Phaserhawk

Trisul wrote:

Most people here seem to think that 7 purple is the right AP cost, just to not be able to cast it on first turn fully boosted.

This level of board manipulation seems to be severely undercosted here. The XF combo is just the most obvious example of what can result.

right, any strong black skill is potentially lethal first turn. NP showed you average about 5.3 black from IF's purple so most of the time with boosts you will have 11.3 black, even people who don't have X-Force are going to love

1st turn

---

Rage of the Panther
Nightstalker
Hypersonic Punch
Fastball Special
Summon Demons
Bad Reputation
Inferno
2xJab,Jab Cross
Masterstroke
2xPsy Katana
Hailstorm
Full Blast

I was thinking about all the fun you could have with Fastball Special. You could create, although unlikely an infinite loop with IF and Colossus. IF purple into Fastball, he throws IF, he comes back down, purple into more black. The cascades and AP generated would be fun.

Either way, some of those like a max Summon Demons or a max Hailstorm would be devastating not to mention a first turn RotP.

Unknown

The best comparative power is Thor . 8 AP, 9 Yellow Tiles, plus some damage. IF with the tiles or damage is slightly different, but the damage number is so high that 5 AP does feel cheap. Not even taking into account boosted 1st turn use.

As with many a game breaking combo, this one relies on multiple AP colors and thus receives a greater benefit from +All AP boosts, and thus benefits the players who spend on +All AP boosts. Being able to start the game with 11.3 black on average has a distinct advantage for many characters. I can't remember the last time I lost a match where I got Rage of the Panther off. It's even good for a IF/Hood/Captain America team (who can use the blue on the / boosts).

IF is going to be good, that's pretty much not in question. The question then, is he too good, or is he the right amount of good? I have no problem with powerful 3* characters if they don't cause you to win in 3 moves. IF might be right on the edge of that, like most accelerating characters are. Too early to tell if he's over the line.

Trisul

Thor red is 3 yellow tiles I thought.

Closest comparisons are Cyclops yellow, 2* Ms. Marvel yellow, Thor yellow, Dr. Doom blue.

rednailz

Switchman wrote:

No.

I've had 0 chance to full color cover Xforce in 135 days. I won't have the ISO to boost IF as it will all have to go to Xforce when that day comes.
I love the idea of heroes that are teammates in the comics are being designed to have good synergy in game though.

Was this intended as an actull response or jsut yet another opperunity to complain?

Unknown

Less than 1% of all fights are probably fully boosted. It makes no sense to design AP cost based on that small of a percent.

Also, if the argument is that boosts break characters (such as Sentry, 4or, X-Force, IF, etc.), then the argument should be to remove AP boosts, not to make characters worse for the vast majority of fights that are not boosted.

I am not saying that they should be removed, but if they are going to create discussions where characters are being nerfed because of boosts, it is hypocritical to always go to a default blame character AP costs and just ignore the elephant in the room.

Unknown

Just considering the transformative part, ignoring boosts:
Vs Doom Blue 9
Considering you just matched blue to get this, there aren't going to be as many blue tiles on the board -> less conversion. Further, it's taking away a color that you need. It's more predictable, but this is one of those abilities where it's better to wait until the board is in a better configuration to get you some automatic matches after casting, whereas with IFoKL you can cast whenever there's any black on board.

Vs Captain Marvel 8
Overwrites same#, both friendly and enemy tiles as opposed to just basic, with greater chance of cascade, but come on, it's team-up. Damage is less, and team-up reliability is way less.

Vs Mystique 9
Mystique converts 10 to Black and Purple at highest level. The ability to deny RGY is better, and it works with MNMags but that's about it.

vs Cyclops 7
Cyclops converts 8 of the worst tile into red. Much more predictable, but relies on having 8 team-up tiles out there, which might not happen if the AI keeps matching them.

vs Thor 12
12 AP! You'd have to compare this to IFoKL twice. The damage it does is about 1/2 that of IFoKL.

IFoKL is hands down better than all of these, closest being Cyclops and comparing 2 IFoKL (10 ) to Thor's Lightning Storm (12 ). Should be at least 7AP, though I could see it being feasible at 8 AP or 9AP, also considering the rest of his abilities. IF is OP.

Trisul

The_Valeyard wrote:

Also, if the argument is that boosts break characters (such as Sentry, 4or, X-Force, IF, etc.), then the argument should be to remove AP boosts, not to make characters worse for the vast majority of fights that are not boosted.

I would generally argue for the removal of AP boosts. But since D3 will never do that, I argue for a more practical thing (rebalancing AP costs).

NorthernPolarity

Also please don't think "oh hes not better than XF / GT so he's fine". Iron Fist is a THREE STAR CHARACTER. If your definition is that a 3* character is "fine" because he doesn't replace a 4* character that is like 100% better than all existing 3*s, then I don't know what to say. Iron Fist should be compared to other 3* characters, in which case he's basically miles better than LazyThor when paired with a good black (BP / X-Force), and if LazyThor is considered far and away the best dps 3* character, then I'm pretty sure we have a problem on our hands for the 3* metagame.

Phaserhawk

The_Valeyard wrote:

Less than 1% of all fights are probably fully boosted. It makes no sense to design AP cost based on that small of a percent.

Also, if the argument is that boosts break characters (such as Sentry, 4or, X-Force, IF, etc.), then the argument should be to remove AP boosts, not to make characters worse for the vast majority of fights that are not boosted.

I am not saying that they should be removed, but if they are going to create discussions where characters are being nerfed because of boosts, it is hypocritical to always go to a default blame character AP costs and just ignore the elephant in the room.

I do agree with you, however to not take into account boosts when creating characters is much like major league sports ignoring performance enhancement drugs.

If laws and rules or in MPQ case balance and testing aren't in place, some crazy things will happen, like record breaking home runs on a record that stood for 50 years or 1st turn Surgical strikes. However, D3 has the luxury of removing the imbalance by either removing the boosts or balance characters however they haven't done either.

notamutant

On my other account, I already have a maxed out IF. As some people stated here already, the usefulness of first turn SS is vastly overstated. I used him with Doom and XForce to see how much black I could get how quickly if fully boosted +3 all +3 green/black and +3blue/purple. I could run SS immediately and still have leftover black, but then I can't use SS again for a bit. But I could use the purple quickly again... if it weren't for the fact most of the purple were converted to black. Not many characters have purple as their strongest power, so you can't easily double cast IF purple. This combo was strong though, I took down the goons that had 15k/12k/12k in 3 minutes with no damage. A lot faster than my typical Rogers/XForce/Magneto team to take out goons. I think IF works better with a black user that you can repeatedly use his black, like Luke Cage or Cyclops. RotP might also be good.

Unknown

Yeah, I think boosts have to be a part of this conversation. I don't buy + all boosts, but I happily buy the Iso 8 boosts all day long. So while I might not be the kind of person to take advantage of 1st turn surgical strikes, I'll certainly be taking advantage of potential second turn surgical strikes. Those are better, clearly, but not enough.

And it was boosting in the bad old days that allowed for infinite Ragnarok turns; boosting was a part of the game and had to be taken into account.

Honestly, I like that +all boosts are precious and rare and so can only be employed by super-whales. I also like that I can buy myself the duo-colored boosts fairly easily, and I like that I can pull them out in a pinch for either time or super-tough opponents. There are precious few really cheap abilities these days, and I think the tempo of the game is better for it.

They should totally remove the +crit damage boost, though. That's just a fancy way for the game to tell me I've won nothing from a match, and I don't care for it.

Unknown

Soooo...how about Laken/Patch/IF, at least for climbing? Tank all of IFs colors, let strikes and attacks do the work?

konannfriends

Phaserhawk wrote:

Trisul wrote:

Most people here seem to think that 7 purple is the right AP cost, just to not be able to cast it on first turn fully boosted.

This level of board manipulation seems to be severely undercosted here. The XF combo is just the most obvious example of what can result.

right, any strong black skill is potentially lethal first turn. NP showed you average about 5.3 black from IF's purple so most of the time with boosts you will have 11.3 black, even people who don't have X-Force are going to love

1st turn

---

Rage of the Panther
Nightstalker
Hypersonic Punch
Fastball Special
Summon Demons
Bad Reputation
Inferno
2xJab,Jab Cross
Masterstroke
2xPsy Katana
Hailstorm
Full Blast

I was thinking about all the fun you could have with Fastball Special. You could create, although unlikely an infinite loop with IF and Colossus. IF purple into Fastball, he throws IF, he comes back down, purple into more black. The cascades and AP generated would be fun.

Either way, some of those like a max Summon Demons or a max Hailstorm would be devastating not to mention a first turn RotP.

First turn hail storm into hailstorm spam. That would be lovely. But he is the first character I know I spend money on. I want at least buy 4 covers.... Cuz right now he looks better than Patch and THOR. The most op 3* there are. Damn spamming hyper sonic punch would be nice too

Unknown

That would either fail or become tremendously effective--hard to say. The IF power would only put new blacks on the non-attack tiles, which might just make guaranteed matches at the top of the screen but might just fail to make a full complement of new black tiles.

Unknown

Outside top tier, most people aren't going to waste that many boosts just to get a first turn surgical, but even with only +3All, you should usually be able to get a surgical in 2 or 3 moves.

I know I shouldn't but ... They should remove the L from Iron Fist of K'un-Lun so that the acronym matches up appropriately.

Unknown

rednailz wrote:

Switchman wrote:

No.

I've had 0 chance to full color cover Xforce in 135 days. I won't have the ISO to boost IF as it will all have to go to Xforce when that day comes.
I love the idea of heroes that are teammates in the comics are being designed to have good synergy in game though.

Was this intended as an actull response or jsut yet another opperunity to complain?

Actull response and opperunity.

rednailz

Switchman wrote:

rednailz wrote:

Switchman wrote:

No.

I've had 0 chance to full color cover Xforce in 135 days. I won't have the ISO to boost IF as it will all have to go to Xforce when that day comes.
I love the idea of heroes that are teammates in the comics are being designed to have good synergy in game though.

Was this intended as an actull response or jsut yet another opperunity to complain?

Actull response and opperunity.

LMAO - touche

rkd80

I agree with two salient and non-competing points made by all previous posters.

1) He will be the cream of the top in 3* land. He is significantly more versatile and powerful than most.
2) He is not the holy grail paired with XF. For one, why would up give my fully maxed lady thor who has almost double the health? So that I can get off one SS which in the high end PvP is almost always a red? Nah. He will be beastly with BP and maybe even cyclops, but he will not replace 4or/XF.

Thanos

Trisul wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

Also, if the argument is that boosts break characters (such as Sentry, 4or, X-Force, IF, etc.), then the argument should be to remove AP boosts, not to make characters worse for the vast majority of fights that are not boosted.

I would generally argue for the removal of AP boosts. But since D3 will never do that, I argue for a more practical thing (rebalancing AP costs).

Yes, this exactly. everybody keeps talking about how fast he is boosted. Personally i think they should remove boosting from PvP entirely and only allow it in PvE formats. Before you all go crying for a nerf maybe you should play with the character first. Maybe D3 knows something we dont. Besides, 9 times out of 10 when they nerf a character it usually goes from good to unplayable.

GrumpySmurf1002

Phaserhawk wrote:

Either way, some of those like a max Summon Demons or a max Hailstorm would be devastating not to mention a first turn RotP.

First turn Summon Demons and Hailstorm would negate Iron Fist's black. Keep in mind his attack tile won't trigger til turn 2 (same as Cage's shield doesn't). Not that 2nd turn Summon Demons isn't just as devastating, but costing yourself ~500 damage per turn would be unwise.