Prodigal Sun Scaling

orbitalint

Ok ok, I finally came around. Winfinite (MNMags/Mystique) needs to be tweaked. I haven't used the combo since maybe The Hunt a few weeks ago and really forgot how devastating it is for goon nodes, especially with Patch. That whole murderer's row of good nodes on that first sub took time but was a cake walk when I had to break them out.

I had been running my pve crew of Daken/Falcon/Blade for most of it but they petered out about 3 clears before the end of the sub and I was getting smacked around by pistols or a bad cascade after a threaten. Not even an issue with Winfinite.

It makes me sad but also made me realize how broken it is when important covers are on the line.

Unknown

One key to getting easier brackets in PVE is not starting at the beginning. I've gotten a bracket that I don't think is a cupcake, but also is probably easier than most, because I started a slice 1 bracket about 24 hours after the event opened up. It can make about a prize tier's worth of difference, even at the top.

simonsez

orbitalint wrote:

I had been running my pve crew of Daken/Falcon/Blade for most of it but they petered out about 3 clears before the end of the sub and I was getting smacked around by pistols or a bad cascade after a threaten. Not even an issue with Winfinite.

So you're saying you want Magstique tweaked so you can go back to having your Daken/Falcon/Blade batted around like a pinata? You guys in the nerf patrol truly baffle me...

SnowcaTT

SnowcaTT wrote:

The first easy maggia nodes are full of 140's: that's the level of my next highest character after X-force. Third node has three x 180 and is "normal". You know, three characters higher level than any of mine but one could be if I maxed it. Horray! Must use one character every single node or have no chance!

Maybe scaling should consider an average of characters, or perhaps even average of top 10 leveled characters. Making it so every node must be your best roster, and then boosted as you go along? Not much fun.

And...wow. That was opening values, now the first node is 180, then 212, then 234, then 255. After two partial clears (never did last node). Apparently nodes need to be 12 or 24 hours, after 24 the global scaling gets out of hand...+40 levels!

orbitalint

simonsez wrote:

So you're saying you want Magstique tweaked so you can go back to having your Daken/Falcon/Blade batted around like a pinata? You guys in the nerf patrol truly baffle me...

No, I'm saying that it is clear when the rest of my crew is obviously over matched that this combo can clear it without issue, there is a problem. At some point, yes, scaling should be reigning in your team so that you can't just grind your way to a win. There should be some skill involved and this gives an almost insurmountable advantage to anyone that has the combo. I have a 5k lead on 10th after the first sub that probably has 0 chances of being overtaken because I have an infinite number of "I win" buttons with this combo. Yes, I'm taking advantage of it but I still feel wrong for doing it.

You don't even need a leveled Mags or Stique, just a fully covered and it'll pop off without a hitch. Yeah, it would take a heck of a lot longer but it would still work. It doesn't bother you that a level 40/15 team can take down any 395 node given enough time? It's not practical but illustrates the brokenness of it.

It's really not about how it impacts me personally because I'm obviously benefiting from it. It's that it creates an imbalance and distortion in the game that only people who have it can benefit from. Yeah, that group will grow over time but still doesn't create a level playing field, which is way more important to me than a win in any particular event.

I'm also not saying you kill the combo but maybe bring down Stique blue a few converted tiles and it wouldn't work absolutely every time without question.

Trisul

Trivializing defense is bad for the game overall. Makes scaling unreasonable and draws a gigantic thick line between combo haves and have-nots.

I supported the old CMags nerf for the same reason.

Trisul

The sad thing is, if PvE wasn't competitive (i.e. more like Gauntlet/DPD) then infinite combos wouldn't detract from the game at all, and be a really cool part of the game.

Alas, it is. And alas, it does.

orbitalint

Trisul wrote:

Trivializing defense is bad for the game overall. Makes scaling unreasonable and draws a gigantic thick line between combo haves and have-nots.

I supported the old CMags nerf for the same reason.

I remember getting into it with you Trisul last time on this topic. I've obviously changed my tune since then. I put the combo away for a decent amount of time to enjoy my newly 5 black XF. After playing "normal" games without the combo and then coming back to it, it just feels wrong.

Sorry it took me so long to see the light! lol.

tanis3303

I'm confused. Why would you NOT play that combo if you have it? It's not like its breaking anything in PvP, the AI certainly can't pull the combo off, so on a player vs player competition level, there's no problem with it. I used Magstique for almost the entire Enemy of the State event with Black Panther as the 3rd, and it might be the most fun I've ever had playing this game. How long can you maintain it? Is it safe to let them take a turn while you match some red to let Mags collect you some random AP? It's a fun combo, and its worthless in anything but PvE, where the scaling practically demands something of that caliber to take it down. Mags is a 2*, literally everyone can have him. Mystique has been featured enough times that having 5 of her blue power is not out of the question for a decent chunk of the player base. Not to mention that if you're using it, you're probably not taking much damage unless the board decides to be a jerk to you, so that in and of itself is ultimately making your scaling worse, so just by using it you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. I just don't see the problem...

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

hermanbloom wrote:

I haven't bothered with the last two nodes for a while and, given the fact I am top 30, I would suggest most other players aren't either.

Geez, how do you guys find brackets like this? I've done 3 full clears like clockwork, and I'm sitting in 74th place.

Half-assing previous PvE events? That's what I did in the last 2 events, giving the minimum effort to reach the progression rewards, sometimes even less than that. I'm currently 22nd with about 8k points after 3 full clears, with the bracket leader a little over 11k.

Trisul

tanis3303 wrote:

I'm confused. Why would you NOT play that combo if you have it? It's not like its breaking anything in PvP, the AI certainly can't pull the combo off, so on a player vs player competition level, there's no problem with it. I used Magstique for almost the entire Enemy of the State event with Black Panther as the 3rd, and it might be the most fun I've ever had playing this game. How long can you maintain it? Is it safe to let them take a turn while you match some red to let Mags collect you some random AP? It's a fun combo, and its worthless in anything but PvE, where the scaling practically demands something of that caliber to take it down. Mags is a 2*, literally everyone can have him. Mystique has been featured enough times that having 5 of her blue power is not out of the question for a decent chunk of the player base. Not to mention that if you're using it, you're probably not taking much damage unless the board decides to be a jerk to you, so that in and of itself is ultimately making your scaling worse, so just by using it you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. I just don't see the problem...

The problem is that PvE is still a PvP competition, which is the whole reason why scaling exists (separates players based on performance).

The chain reaction is pretty simple:

1. Players with combo can beat every node, more nodes than before.
2. Scaling rises faster because a higher percentage of players can beat the node than otherwise expected.
3. Players without combo can't keep up with the high scaling.

End result: players with the combo get a disproportionately large advantage. <-- This is what I'm against in principle.

Hey, I have the combo myself, and I don't deny that it's a pretty cool and fun to pull off. But I have a lot of sympathy for people still in the transition, or players that just remain bad enough at gaming the PvE system that they'll never get the 5 Mystique covers they need. It's easy to say, "Yeah, just play the game properly" but I still want suboptimal players to enjoy this game as much as they can, as they are probably the financial lifeblood of this game.

orbitalint

tanis3303 wrote:

I'm confused. Why would you NOT play that combo if you have it? It's not like its breaking anything in PvP, the AI certainly can't pull the combo off, so on a player vs player competition level, there's no problem with it. I used Magstique for almost the entire Enemy of the State event with Black Panther as the 3rd, and it might be the most fun I've ever had playing this game. How long can you maintain it? Is it safe to let them take a turn while you match some red to let Mags collect you some random AP? It's a fun combo, and its worthless in anything but PvE, where the scaling practically demands something of that caliber to take it down. Mags is a 2*, literally everyone can have him. Mystique has been featured enough times that having 5 of her blue power is not out of the question for a decent chunk of the player base. Not to mention that if you're using it, you're probably not taking much damage unless the board decides to be a jerk to you, so that in and of itself is ultimately making your scaling worse, so just by using it you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. I just don't see the problem...

So, I'll admit that I am using it since IF is on the line and I need to rack up them points but that doesn't mean I'm ok with it. Scaling means absolutely nothing to the combo especially goon nodes. It means there is an artificial inflation of nodes globally because you can beat nodes you probably shouldn't have and so anyone without the combo is getting scaled out of those nodes much faster than they would have without it in existence. And the players with the combo don't care about scaling, so they just keep driving it up and up until theoretically ONLY the combo can do clears on the node without munching healthpacks. That's a clear divide and only level 999's might have a chance to keep this under control because they'd have 100k health. That doesn't seem odd to you?

Also, I'm not really concerned with how available these characters are or have been. Anyone that doesn't have access to it has a clear disadvantage that no amount of XF/4hor's can make up for. Yeah, these 4*'s are the cream of the crop but they actually require you to play the game and occasionally use a healthpack.

I think it is just time they considered tweaking something so that it isn't an "I Win" button regardless of anything including levels of the opponent except getting to 9 purple. Once that happens, game is pretty much over.

CrookedKnight

I think part of the problem is that there are so many goon nodes with Muscles as the most prominent enemy, where if you let even a single damage ability resolve you're probably headed for a wipe. People have hypothesized recently that scaling over the course of the event is primarily keyed off how much damage you take while clearing the fights - a skin-of-your-teeth win will only bump things up by a few levels, but steamrolling the enemy team results in a bigger boost. Against Muscles, though, most wins are going to involve taking little or no damage, regardless of how tense it got, because if you let them hurt you at all you're boned. So a win that I'd think of as tough ("Holy ****, there were 5000 points worth of strike tiles sitting on the board! If I'd let them get off Covering Fire once I'd be dead!") registers in the system as a cakewalk, and gets scaled accordingly.

LXSandman

orbitalint wrote:

simonsez wrote:

So you're saying you want Magstique tweaked so you can go back to having your Daken/Falcon/Blade batted around like a pinata? You guys in the nerf patrol truly baffle me...

No, I'm saying that it is clear when the rest of my crew is obviously over matched that this combo can clear it without issue, there is a problem. At some point, yes, scaling should be reigning in your team so that you can't just grind your way to a win. There should be some skill involved and this gives an almost insurmountable advantage to anyone that has the combo. I have a 5k lead on 10th after the first sub that probably has 0 chances of being overtaken because I have an infinite number of "I win" buttons with this combo. Yes, I'm taking advantage of it but I still feel wrong for doing it.

You don't even need a leveled Mags or Stique, just a fully covered and it'll pop off without a hitch. Yeah, it would take a heck of a lot longer but it would still work. It doesn't bother you that a level 40/15 team can take down any 395 node given enough time? It's not practical but illustrates the brokenness of it.

It's really not about how it impacts me personally because I'm obviously benefiting from it. It's that it creates an imbalance and distortion in the game that only people who have it can benefit from. Yeah, that group will grow over time but still doesn't create a level playing field, which is way more important to me than a win in any particular event.

I'm also not saying you kill the combo but maybe bring down Stique blue a few converted tiles and it wouldn't work absolutely every time without question.

Hey, I must be missing something here. I don't have Mystique, so maybe someone can explain what exactly is PVE breaking about this combo? I read the power for mystique, but her blue doesn't sound like it will just win the game over time.

I assume it is get purple, use Mags to make lots of blue, then use blue to turn tiles black(10). But how does that ensure you won't get hit by enemy countdown tiles? I mean, yeah she might convert their tiles, and the cascades might destroy them, but it doesn't seem guaranteed like everyone on the board is saying. What am I missing?

Thanks!

LXSandman

CrookedKnight

You use Magneto's purple to collect a bunch of blue. Then you use Mystique's blue to collect a bunch of purple. And black, but it's the purple that's really important, because at maximum level Infiltration will often give you enough purple to immediately use Mags' power again. You just keep looping them over and over, mixing in a black damage ability as AP gain allows, and if all goes well everything dies before the enemy team gets another turn.

Unknown

LXSandman wrote:

Hey, I must be missing something here. I don't have Mystique, so maybe someone can explain what exactly is PVE breaking about this combo? I read the power for mystique, but her blue doesn't sound like it will just win the game over time.

I assume it is get purple, use Mags to make lots of blue, then use blue to turn tiles black(10). But how does that ensure you won't get hit by enemy countdown tiles? I mean, yeah she might convert their tiles, and the cascades might destroy them, but it doesn't seem guaranteed like everyone on the board is saying. What am I missing?

Thanks!

LXSandman

In general, once you get the combo going, you can often take 20 turns uninterrupted without the AI getting a chance to move. Blue also creates more purple which means more polarity shift. Many infiltrations cause critical possibilities which means you get to move again. That countdown isn't a problem because the AI's never going to move.

The drawbacks to the combo are
1. It sometimes takes a long time to set up, especially with a low Blue/Purple board.
2. Mystique and MNMags both have low health in general.
3. If you fire the combo too early, it can peter out.
4. It's super weak on defense.

Even though it's really powerful, I don't think it's sentry game breaking urgency. Plus with them releasing OP Iron Fist, I don't think Demiurge cares about a 2* + 3* combo being overpowered.

simonsez

orbitalint wrote:

I'm also not saying you kill the combo but maybe bring down Stique blue a few converted tiles and it wouldn't work absolutely every time without question.

Unless you boost +6, it doesn't work absolutely every time without question. And even then, you never know... I've had memorable fails like the time I had 29 blue and still managed to lose it (no, not user error). Sure, when it's working it's a beautiful thing, but given Mag's low health, things can go south suddenly.

Trisul

daibar wrote:

I don't think it's sentry game breaking urgency.

What's funny is how long they took fixing Sentry (not to mention CMags). We can safely assume that even if they do eventually nerf winfinite, it probably won't be for a long while. Balance changes tend to be few and far between.

Arondite

tanis3303 wrote:

I'm sure mine will be at least that, I have all of the boosted characters maxed out. I've gotten used to it tho, 4-Thor can one shot just about anything, and with Hood boosted I can get the AP for her even faster. What's frustrating is competing against the 2* guys that you know aren't facing nearly as deadly of foes. Not knocking the 2* guys, kudos to them for grinding it out, just wish we could bracket ourselves into pockets with similar scaling to keep competition a bit more even.

It's this event, dude. Even 2 star rosters are facing terrific monsters of goons. In fact a lot of two star players I know aren't able to push very far or hard this event

tanis3303

simonsez wrote:

orbitalint wrote:

I'm also not saying you kill the combo but maybe bring down Stique blue a few converted tiles and it wouldn't work absolutely every time without question.

Unless you boost +6, it doesn't work absolutely every time without question. And even then, you never know... I've had memorable fails like the time I had 29 blue and still managed to lose it (no, not user error). Sure, when it's working it's a beautiful thing, but given Mag's low health, things can go south suddenly.

^This. Heck, they both have low health, I wiped earlier today because mystique took 2 pistol shots and died horribly. It works like 80% of the time. Less if you're using it vs someone that can move the board. It's a goon killer, no question, but a missed shift or infiltration can very easily lead to an enemy cascade if they have someone that can move tiles. I tried it vs the ultra-hard punisher battle and got murdered in a matter of turns. Not enough purple on the board and punisher kept matching the blue because the goon told him too. Gorgon was also a headache in Enemy of the State, with his snarky little smirk.

orbitalint wrote:

So, I'll admit that I am using it since IF is on the line and I need to rack up them points but that doesn't mean I'm ok with it. Scaling means absolutely nothing to the combo especially goon nodes. It means there is an artificial inflation of nodes globally because you can beat nodes you probably shouldn't have and so anyone without the combo is getting scaled out of those nodes much faster than they would have without it in existence. And the players with the combo don't care about scaling, so they just keep driving it up and up until theoretically ONLY the combo can do clears on the node without munching healthpacks. That's a clear divide and only level 999's might have a chance to keep this under control because they'd have 100k health. That doesn't seem odd to you?

Yea, I'll admit that I didn't think about community scaling going bonkers because of it, you've got a good point there. But I would argue that Magstique is the ONLY way to beat those nodes. I just got the combo a few days ago (believe it or not, I actually didn't have the Magento!!) but I was always able to keep up with the goon scaling. Xforce/LThor/LCap works like a charm for goons, especially Maggia goons where SS will always take yellow. If you don't have Xforce, LCap/Falcon/OBW works very well vs goons. Heck, I could even see it being done with a 2* Stormneto/Hawkeye team (maybe, don't quote me on that one)

Is the combo broken? Yea, kinda But it's broken in the good way, where it takes skill, planning and a little luck to pull it off (kind of like a Tendrils deck in Magic the Gathering) not in the Sentry way where all you needed was 3 turns and a few boosts.