Why essentials aren't important

Doc L

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Doc L wrote:

I draw the line with 4* rewards though, unless they plan to improve the distribution of those covers. I accept they should be rarer than 3*, but if in the coming year they are to be the 'norm' for the top 20%

The top 20% has a considerably weaker roster than you're giving credit for. I'm not convinced the top 20% universally has even a 3* roster as current.

If there's 100k players, that's 20k that would have XThorce. If you assume only half (ridiculous assumption) of those would be in an alliance, that's 10k alliance players with XThorce, or about 500 alliances worth. There's no way the number is that big considering how few and far between they are at the 250ish level. I'm in a top 100 alliance that currently has zero XThorce teams. (one has XForce/Fury maxed, he's working on Thor now)

Even if you cut all of those numbers in half: 50k players, 250 alliances worth of XThorce, the numbers still doesn't jive. Even in the top 10 it's only about 50/50 a member will have it, IIRC. If I had to guess the number is around 0.5-1% of players are using the 270 twins currently, which is somewhere in the 500-1000ish range.

I guess I'm thinking if the 3* to 4* switch is planned as the next step, then I assume this push will spread over more alliances as it goes over the next year or so. My alliance currently is not in the top 100, but most have 13 cover/166 3*, though don't push so hard (real-life etc etc) so usually end around 150 in most events.

user311

Part of me doesn't like essentials because they can be a block towards completing an event. New characters (or even recently vaulted) shouldnt be essential because with zero covers there is no guaranteed way of getting a cover via token. The cash grab idea would make more sense if that were an option. Like the OP suggested, I don't think anyone is really falling for that though. Usually we just give up on that set of nodes. But if I had to pick essentials or no essentials, I would prefer to have them. I think that when we do have those characters (and can progress) the required character provides a challenge on a node that otherwise would just be cleared by your A team. I think it also encourages roster diversity.

Hulk11

Here's the way I see the essentials as it pertains to to the Deadpool scenario. Logically you can earn more 3 stars this way than regular pve, so you have two competing modes really. Given that this givens out quicker rewards, some players have already said they'd stop playing regular pve and stick to this. This makes sense. Now if people are given the chance to do this but unlike the other pve mode there needs to be a way to earn that cover to get in. With this there is no system to get essentials and now vaulted ones. That's a crazy route to go. Someone already stated that this is problematic. Yes I read pretty much every response. Think about the alliance system now, this doesn't encourage this either, if players want to branch off and go this route, no one can blame them, the rewards system is far better right now. You can hang around in an alliance I guess to earn extra stuff. The only catch to somewhat abandoning all other modes is an iso shortage. Still as long as you work on covers through this route, and take iso on the side or plan to earn it later. This is the better mode to be playing it, it's just quicker 3s all around. At that point your missing out on 4s only, but seeing this, they can easily toss those in the future. I can see players upside on the rewards here, and maybe getting to see a few extra survival modes, but this comes off a little cheap without a system to get these essentials first, and the lack of any incentive to stay in an alliance. If you look at the rewards in standard pve, cyclops and hood, these don't event compliment this mode. Sure that's gotta be by design, but looking at this rewards system, it's not complimenting any other modes right now, you don't get any incentive for join an alliance. It's such a huge leap away from every other mode in the game. I just don't see the harmony this adds to anything playable in the game right now. It appears people really enjoy that fact, but I so far have preferred alliance gameplay, and since you took it out of this, it really encourages far more lone wolf activity. So, it sounds like a ton of people like that aspect, I'm just not seeing that yet.

GrumpySmurf1002

Hulk11 wrote:

With this there is no system to get essentials and now vaulted ones. That's a crazy route to go. Someone already stated that this is problematic.

Not entirely true. While the pull rates of the tokens overall are lower, their focus on the features is higher, and an outlet to get the essentials. This is the same outlet for those that don't complete the previous PvE. "Buy tokens" is part of the business model, and this is, and probably always will be, D3's answer to acquiring the essential. It's not an appealing system for the average forum player, but given their token sales, it's an appealing system for the average overall player.

I can see players upside on the rewards here, and maybe getting to see a few extra survival modes, but this comes off a little cheap without a system to get these essentials first, and the lack of any incentive to stay in an alliance.

This makes no sense. The existence of DDQ has no bearing on your presence in an alliance. The incentives to stay in an alliance are a separate entity. If you want to argue the DDQ should have some sort of alliance incentive (say everyone completes it, 100HP to all), then sure, that'd be fun, but I have no clue what this has to do with essentials.

If you look at the rewards in standard pve, cyclops and hood, these don't event compliment this mode. Sure that's gotta be by design, but looking at this rewards system, it's not complimenting any other modes right now, you don't get any incentive for join an alliance. It's such a huge leap away from every other mode in the game. I just don't see the harmony this adds to anything playable in the game right now. It appears people really enjoy that fact, but I so far have preferred alliance gameplay, and since you took it out of this, it really encourages far more lone wolf activity. So, it sounds like a ton of people like that aspect, I'm just not seeing that yet.

There's no such thing as 'alliance gameplay' in any existing mode. Different alliances have different requirements to continue to reap the benefits of said alliance, but there's nothing really about an alliance itself that is cooperative as opposed to 'lone wolf'. If I don't want to play PvE, I don't have to. It just means I can't join WE ARE GROOT or other PvE competitive alliances. Mine personally doesn't care 99% of the time, and that's where I fit. Now if I don't want to play PvP anymore, that's a different story.

But even if we argue alliance gameplay as an existing mechanic, I still don't see your point. There's nothing about the DDQ that says "do this or pve, but only one." It's a supplemental outlet to build your roster. For the guys in top 250 alliances, I can't see how this takes more than 20 minutes out of their day, and can't see how this would have any bearing on their alliance standing in any event. So I don't know what you're arguing other than "some people mentioned they'll play less PvE and more DDQ," which is no different than "I'll play less PvE and more PvP."

Really this seems like a convoluted argument to say "I don't have the essential and that stinks for me." But it's already been established that you're selling off 3*s left and right for reasons that are personal to you. That's perfectly acceptable (I did the same thing in my first 3-4 months). It doesn't mean there's a flaw in the design, it means you made a decision that had consequences. Perhaps the next time you'll make a different decision now that this is established as a thing.

Unknown

I really have nothing of value to contribute to this thread.

But it does suck that Cyclops is an essential in Enemy of the State and there is no PvP with him as a reward right now Usually, after a new character is released, the next PvP offers the new character as a reward.

Hulk11

In the end you probably summed up there is an alliance mechanic in the game. As far as my selling 3s and consequences, it's only cost me in this mode so far. Also the BP that I got that was merely coincidental to being the first essential. Now the two other, you can say D3 gave me a chance, they were two upcoming. Now this, over all the characters was clearly not coincidental, that doesn't happen. They probably added extras so people would play this. I'm on a different strategy so I thought nothing of it, especially going into knowing or thinking about this Deadpool event. I have strategies in pvp and pvp, this really isn't doing anything for me except random iso, so my perspective is, Why is this here? To take iso ok, that's not worth the fandom, and sure it's not much worth a debate. Yeah the essentials play a huge part in that,and they aren't essentials that are going to be in pve. They look to be timing the rewards apart, so out of these 5 or so characters, we may see one appear in pve weeks from now, still you needed that essential to already earn it, so that counters any purpose going into any pve in the future. I see no point here. There is pvp, too, but do you think they are gonna string these 5 straight into the next rounds? Probably not, they are gonna be stretched apart and strew all over the place, making your gains very slow in pvp nonetheless, and you still need the iso to level. I'm really breaking this down to the core elements into looking how viable this is to any other pve and pvp, and there isn't any, if you have the essential, you get to play this mode, that's what you get, and they can rinse repeat and make Iron Mans Daily, Widows, and they all need new essentials. Not fun anymore. Quite repetitive.

GrumpySmurf1002

MikeHock wrote:

I really have nothing of value to contribute to this thread.

But it does suck that Cyclops is an essential in Enemy of the State and there is no PvP with him as a reward right now Usually, after a new character is released, the next PvP offers the new character as a reward.

Gamora's PvP will award Cyclops. It's usually timed where the reward comes some time mid-event.

NorthernPolarity

Hulk11 wrote:

Here's the way I see the essentials as it pertains to to the Deadpool scenario. Logically you can earn more 3 stars this way than regular pve, so you have two competing modes really. Given that this givens out quicker rewards, some players have already said they'd stop playing regular pve and stick to this. This makes sense. Now if people are given the chance to do this but unlike the other pve mode there needs to be a way to earn that cover to get in. With this there is no system to get essentials and now vaulted ones. That's a crazy route to go. Someone already stated that this is problematic. Yes I read pretty much every response. Think about the alliance system now, this doesn't encourage this either, if players want to branch off and go this route, no one can blame them, the rewards system is far better right now. You can hang around in an alliance I guess to earn extra stuff. The only catch to somewhat abandoning all other modes is an iso shortage. Still as long as you work on covers through this route, and take iso on the side or plan to earn it later. This is the better mode to be playing it, it's just quicker 3s all around. At that point your missing out on 4s only, but seeing this, they can easily toss those in the future. I can see players upside on the rewards here, and maybe getting to see a few extra survival modes, but this comes off a little cheap without a system to get these essentials first, and the lack of any incentive to stay in an alliance. If you look at the rewards in standard pve, cyclops and hood, these don't event compliment this mode. Sure that's gotta be by design, but looking at this rewards system, it's not complimenting any other modes right now, you don't get any incentive for join an alliance. It's such a huge leap away from every other mode in the game. I just don't see the harmony this adds to anything playable in the game right now. It appears people really enjoy that fact, but I so far have preferred alliance gameplay, and since you took it out of this, it really encourages far more lone wolf activity. So, it sounds like a ton of people like that aspect, I'm just not seeing that yet.

I... don't really understand this point at all. Deadpool's Daily Quest isn't supposed to outright replace anything like PvE / PvP: it's supposed to be a supplement. Getting an extra 5 nodes to play per day hardly takes any real time commitment, so it's not like you have to choose this mode over any other one. Changing the DP Daily to give as much rewards or be a straight alternative to normal PvE is insane: DP daily is literally 5 nodes a day, PvE takes much more commitment and so should have higher awards (such as getting you the covers to cover up with DP daily). You're trying too hard to make this a completely separate thing when that wasn't the point of this at all. I mean, DP daily helps you build characters that you obtain through PvP and PvE. That is a huge bridge that helps players cover up their characters, and incentivizes players to play all three modes: how is this not complimenting the existing modes in the game right now?

Unknown

The point of all these ads of 'Recruit Cyclops for your team' probably isn't so that you can have a 1/0/0 version of him so that you can do the node while Cyclops hides behind a rock. They obviously want you to cover and level this guy up. But currently, due to the ability to trivially do 2on3 in most cases, there is no point. Let's pretend 4*s don't even exist so that you don't have to worry about guys who are powerful but end up being useless because they conflict with Thor/X Force, Deadpool is still roughly the level you need a character to be at for him to pull his weight compared to your best 2, and Deadpool is stronger than at least half of the 3*s out there. Of course since 4*s do exist the list is even shorter. In PvP there are a lot of time I seriously thought about taking a loaner because the loaner doesn't waste health packs and has a far smaller chance of having conflicting color powers despite having a decent level featured character (100+, max covered). That seems fairly counter to seeing ads that still tell me I need this guy on my team on every event. I have a hard time believing it's not intended for you to level up your featured character given the significant effort the game goes into to try to sell you the cover packs, and it is at least a huge wasted opportunity.

I'm not sure what the exact problem is, but you don't have that in say, Deadpool's Daily Quest in the 2*/1* only characters. That is, I certainly don't pick a random guy for my third slot even though I probably can do 2on3 and is usually never in danger of losing. This is probably because the 2*/1* start out much closer to balance in baseline and you also don't have any pieces to construct an infinite combo or a dominating character like X Force so you really want everyone on the team to be able to pull his weight, and certainly if a random 2* was offered at +40 levels that'd almost certain be enough to warrant using him as long as that guy isn't Bagman.

esoxnepa

Hulk11 wrote:

In the end .

In the end, you must be going for the most posts combined with lowest reputation for the MPQ records thread!

The Gunslinger

I think we just need to agree to disagree with Hulk. There really isn't any progress being made.

That, or we should just send him to space. That worked before, right?

Hulk11

Here's my suggestion, expand the rewards in the current modes not hard at all. You don't need to supplement that. I said it, my bad, D3, you don't need a cash grab to expand rewards. If you had the guts to add 4 star required, we'd really take the bait.

NorthernPolarity

Hulk11 wrote:

Here's my suggestion, expand the rewards in the current modes not hard at all. You don't need to supplement that. I said it, my bad, D3, you don't need a cash grab to expand rewards.

So you're saying, that instead of doing 5 nodes for a day for a cover in your roster that you have and want to cover up, you want Demiurge to get rid of these covers, and instead increase awards in a 7 day PvE that you have to grind? I know that you're still salty about not having BP for yesterday's daily, but come on. The DP daily has something for everyone: iso / tokens for people that don't have the 3*, a 3* cover for people who need to cover their guys and have been saving all these one off covers, AND an insane amount of iso for people who have all of that. To say "I want this gone so we can have worse awards in PvE that we have to grind even more for" is just reeking of salt, and makes no sense whatsoever.

Hulk11

Worse? No, no, no. Expanding rewards in pve increases success in the pve events and pvp, this is so half done it's hardly even supplemental.

NorthernPolarity

Hulk11 wrote:

Worse? No, no, no. Expanding rewards in pve increases success in the pve events and pvp, this is so half done it's hardly even supplemental.

I think you are literally the only one complaining about the DP daily not giving enough awards, so I'm inclined to believe that the DP daily is indeed giving enough awards, and that you are not being rational.

Hulk11

Needless frustration here. Whether it's me on essentials or someone downed by only getting a two star from a taco token. This isnt, "needed" to help players, adding another source of essential nodes is not needed. If the point is to just add some thing to play, then just make something everyone can play for a change. Also if this is about helping the rewards route, add more rewards where they are already given. I probably can't express more how pointless this comes across.

Think of it this way since you like to mention how few nodes there are. What if the other 3 or whatever there is, we're all essentials? Just random essentials, I mean it's only 3 more, promotes diversity right? Seriously, that's how close this is to being absolutely ridiculous.

MojoWild

What would you do with that 3* cover you would get in the last node anyway, since you didn't want that character in the first place, seeing as how you sold it off before?

Hulk11

MojoWild wrote:

What would you do with that 3* cover you would get in the last node anyway, since you didn't want that character in the first place, seeing as how you sold it off before?

I'd probably sell it, so it's an iso situation, tons of people are in this boat ok, unless they took this opportunity to buy something.
Today I did what I could, got a mohawk, storm cover. OK nice, still nothing I'm gonna put iso in, nothing I'm gonna spend money on. She's no priority aside from maybe the one one pvp she's in, long ways out cause its been played recently. Pretty blah, I kept it cause I had it, but that really did so little for me. An alliancemate, mentioned he's now got 5 yellows on his bp, before he had 4. He's got only yellows on him, in his words, pointless.

NorthernPolarity

Hulk11 wrote:

Needless frustration here. Whether it's me on essentials or someone downed by only getting a two star from a taco token. This isnt, "needed" to help players, adding another source of essential nodes is not needed. If the point is to just add some thing to play, then just make something everyone can play for a change. Also if this is about helping the rewards route, add more rewards where they are already given. I probably can't express more how pointless this comes across.

Think of it this way since you like to mention how few nodes there are. What if the other 3 or whatever there is, we're all essentials? Just random essentials, I mean it's only 3 more, promotes diversity right? Seriously, that's how close this is to being absolutely ridiculous.

Okay here is exactly what each type of player gets out of this:
1* guy - 500 iso from the first node
2* guy - all of the above taco token from second node, 1k iso from the third node
2->3* guy - all of the above, + another taco token and cover (for a char he already has which means its closer to being useful) if he has the required character

Notice that everyone is getting what they should be getting at their stage in the game. The 1* player isn't getting too much because he still has 2* covers to farm in PvP / PvE. The 2* guy isn't being handed free 3* covers, but hes getting a chance to develop his roster with the taco tokens, which inevitably will lead to some 3* covers. the 2->3* guy has a ton of incomplete covers already, so he's getting a guaranteed cover for a character he already has, and another chance at getting more covers.

And here's what I think you want the awards to be:
1* guy - 3 lazythor covers
2* guy - 4 X-force covers
3* guy - 10 LadyThor covers

Your expectations are just way too high. How can anyone be "disappointed" by a Taco token? They played a single node to get it, and they know EXACTLY what the odds of getting everything are. That's like saying "Oh I'm sad because my free taco isn't as good as that amazing Taco that I worked an hour for, and that I'm extremely entitled". Maybe you aren't meant to be rewarded with all the ladythor covers from the getgo, and maybe encouraging players to have a larger roster so that they can get more rewards is a GOOD thing, instead of handing out free X-Force covers to everyone regardless of where they are at in the game.

Tredo

Hulk11 wrote:

Worse? No, no, no. Expanding rewards in pve increases success in the pve events and pvp, this is so half done it's hardly even supplemental.

Are you really a veteran of the forums that created the ultimate troll account? That's the only way I can explain all of your posts.