An open letter to Demiurge (The 3-Star Deadlock)

Wobby

IReallyHatePVP wrote:

As soon as it stops being challenging, you stop playing.

This.
I've got 350,000 ISO and enough HP to go get my 4hor going. But why do that? To win 3* tournaments and then keep using the same two characters anyway?

Unknown

I don't think the game is any more or less challenging for having 4*. The characters right now is still nothing compared to some of the older characters like the pre nerf Magneto or Sentry and it's not like the game's somehow less playable back then whether you had them or not. For PvP after a while it's just a meta game of shielding and who you have doesn't fundamentally change things, and for PvE due to scaling things never really change to begin with. I used to think if I maxed out Thor there will be nothing to play for but after maxing her out I realized it's still more or less the same thing and it wasn't just because I could max out Thor that kept me playing. I keep playing because the game is interesting and if it stops being interesting it wouldn't matter if they have an even more powerful version of Thor or X Force.

I do wonder what's the point to collect characters if the game plays pretty much exactly the same from beginning to end since you're never using more than about your 5 most powerful characters but hopefully they got some long term plan to deal with that. Like another guy said in the daily PvE thread, maybe when everyone can get their characters covered we'll have enough guys asking for content that actually requires all those fully covered guys instead of randomly rotating a guy in because he's essential and then never seeing him again.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

The "next logical step" for you is not 4*'s.

That's very true.
You have 2 main issue with your roster in the race to 4* via getting 1000 in PvP :
- your Xforce desperately needs 5 green
- your roster of maxed 3 is too small, which means featured characters in PvP will seldom be maxed in your team and that makes a huge difference. On top of that you have very little leeway in term of rotation of your attack team.

I managed to reach three time in the last 4 PvPs the famous 1000 points objective. My roster is one XForce fully covered at 180 and 17 maxed 3 . So yes, it is perfectly doable to reach 1000 in a pretty reliable way if you have a very strong 3 roster. It's not foolproof, but you can get there with a bit of timing and dedication.

But you are utterly right on one thing though : transition from 3 to 4 in this fashion is so slow that watching paint dry looks like an Indycar race. If I'm getting one cover of 4 per PvP it will take me forever and a day to fully cover the only other 4 I'm really interested in, Thor as I only got one sole red cover of her for now. Second issue : reaching a 1000 costs an arm and a leg (north of 500 HP per PvP I'd say).
So even if your premisses are flawed, your conclusion is spot on : Demiurge, please increase the speed of the 4 transition.
The 2 -> 3 transition will be easier with the Deadpool event ad that's awesome, but the 3 -> 4 transition is way tougher and also needs some work.

El Satanno

I daresay that others have the right of it in that OP isn't really in a position to be thinking about the 4* transition. But I think there are two similar issues which often get overshadowed here, and well worth examining.

First being that there isn't really a 4* transition. There is a 3* -> X-Force + 4* Thor transition. No one, and I mean no one is talking about the other 4* characters. They don't matter. At all. Hell, I'd rather have another copy of almost any one of my maxed 3* guys than one of the remaining 4*s. Fury's the only one somewhat in the running, and he is a distant-**** third.

Second being that the 4* level of play is a very nascent thing, so expecting it to be smooth or reasonable is a laughably naive concept. It wasn't all that long ago that the 1* -> 2* transition was made into a relatively effortless endeavor, and Deadpool's Taco thing is the first real move to make the 2* -> 3* transition less than naked, screaming agony for most people. We haven't even seen how that is going to work yet. It has taken D3 this long to figure out how to make the existing setup work. How can we possibly even begin to consider the next big step?

over_clocked

Gonna side with scottee here, the OP needs a more developed 3* roster to be able to earn 4* covers more reliably. He sure has the HP to target select events with X-Force and 4or as 1000 progression prizes.
But even then, his current roster should be able to get to 1000 with a few shields.
In my Identity Theft bracket, 2 players without maxed 4or managed to get 1000 (yellow Fury), and only one of them needed top 5 for blue cMagneto. Their rosters:




PS: You don't want Blade to tank for Daken, you want it vice versa. Daken true heals and Blade doesn't, although they both have a shortened healing rate.

Bowgentle

locked wrote:

PS: You don't want Blade to tank for Daken, you want it vice versa. Daken true heals and Blade doesn't, although they both have a shortened healing rate.

You need to have your sarcasm detection module looked at, I think it stopped working.
That reply to Scottee was literally dripping with it.

lokiagentofhotness

Yup, I've been beaten in my PVP brackets by people without maxed TGT/X-Force. Still am, in fact.

Unknown

I earned all my XF covers using mostly BP/Patch, Daken/Patch and Hulk/Patch. He's got 2 of 3. That roster should be able to hit 1000 points.

What's with the 165s? I know they buff to 248, but you don't want that last level?

Buying 3 green XF and the leveling him to 220 or 221 or leaving him at 180 would help you get TGT covers. 5 green is far and beyond better than 4 green, like a 100% damage increase. And 2 green? Forget it, you'd be amazed at the difference. That XF is the first 4* you get in daily rewards means anyone can throw at the problem and have a fully covered one as soon as they feel they want one. If you feel you want one, you should go for it.

As to PvE, yes a 270 will mess up your baseline, but a 180 or a 220 with 5 green wouldn't. If you are looking for a shortcut, buy XF covers. If you are looking for what to do next, level Daken. Maybe buy him 2 purple covers.

Can D3 come out and say XF will never be nerfed? No, they can't. Is 4*s the new end game? Yes. I feel like since they already rebalanced him once a nerf for XF is very very unlikely to occur. Maybe he's right where D3 wants him to be on top of the heap. Plus as more variety comes to 4* land and more options come to potentially counter XF, his power value will deflate. Some, not a lot, but some. I'd personally say it's safe to buy covers for him.

Unknown

El Satanno wrote:

I daresay that others have the right of it in that OP isn't really in a position to be thinking about the 4* transition. But I think there are two similar issues which often get overshadowed here, and well worth examining.

First being that there isn't really a 4* transition. There is a 3* -> X-Force + 4* Thor transition. No one, and I mean no one is talking about the other 4* characters. They don't matter. At all. Hell, I'd rather have another copy of almost any one of my maxed 3* guys than one of the remaining 4*s. Fury's the only one somewhat in the running, and he is a distant-**** third.

Second being that the 4* level of play is a very nascent thing, so expecting it to be smooth or reasonable is a laughably naive concept. It wasn't all that long ago that the 1* -> 2* transition was made into a relatively effortless endeavor, and Deadpool's Taco thing is the first real move to make the 2* -> 3* transition less than naked, screaming agony for most people. We haven't even seen how that is going to work yet. It has taken D3 this long to figure out how to make the existing setup work. How can we possibly even begin to consider the next big step?

I disagree with this. Given that Fury came out before A) Purple Damage was really a thing and 2) XF got boosted to the super stars he could use a slight power boost. I'd say maybe 50% to 100% damage increase on Escape Plan would do it. Demolition really really messes people up tho. If you got a fully covered Fury some how before an XF or a Thor he would help you get more XF and Thors. And there's speculation that Star Lord might be the new TGT go to partner, especially in like a Cyclops tournament. Collect a bunch of yellow and 9 blue, throw SL yellow, throw Cyclops yellow, throw TGT blue, kill a guy, match red, kill another guy, match blue maybe stun again, match red win. And if that didn't work out, take 10 purple to do 6,000 damage. Any existing 4* fully covered would help you get more 4*s, if only because some of the 3* rosters would stop attacking you in PvP.

evil panda

OP, with your resources and roster there are a few ways to build a roster that can get to 1000 in PVP. all of which have already been discussed here. you just have to spend that sweet HP stash - either buy 4* (i.e. xforce) covers outright, or shield hopping.

your concern on nerfing is absolutely legitimate, but you may have to take that risk because you're already in the prisoner's dilemma of everyone else having already done exactly that.

i want to requote what you've said below, however. as someone who spends real money to upgrade characters when they're truly worth it, i am not in any mood to take a huge nerf to the characters i've 'bought' lying down. when one party purchases a good, he should have every right to get what he expected, or a full refund if he doesn't. i work in a much more highly regulated industry than digital gaming, and if i ever 'nerfed' one of our products to make them unusable, i would be hit with a hundred million dollar fine.

in fairness to D3, they have never hinted at nerfing XForce or Thor, so i hope this doesn't come across as an overreaction. just want to lend my support.

PPPlaya wrote:

Almost all companies offer a refund since when you spend money you have a reasonable expectation of getting what was advertised. If your phone manufacturer forced a mandatory update on you that locked you out of most of the functionality, you would be angry. And rightly so. Buying covers for a character is no different. This may be make-belief money but I spent an unhealthy amount of time on obtaining it, so I consider it as real as any other currency.
Now I have absolutely nothing against nerfing characters but what I do mind is being mocked by the sell price. All the increased sell prices stand in no comparison to the costs of actually buying those covers and are outright insulting at best. It seems that your outlook is that if you spent 10k HP on covers and next week an update rolled around that made them functionally worthless it was bad luck on your part and you should shrug it off. I don't agree with that.

Druss

Another issue with the 3* -> 4* transition imo is I just don't want to do it

eh? Why? you ask.

In 3* land there is a diverse choice of characters & strategies (admittedly some stronger than others) for instance I wouldn't consider 3* Torch top tier, but can be fun to throw him in now & then for good damage dealing etc. However this choice does not (yet) exist at 4* level because X-F & 4hor are so far ahead of the curve

So if by some miracle I did transition to 4* land what now:

1st battle: X-F + 4hor - that was great! won easily
2nd battle X-f + 4hor - that was great! won easily
50th battle - X-f + 4hor - I won (obviously)
150th battle - x-f + 4hor - zzzzzz

If things progress as they are EVERY battle will be loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor - to keep scaling down better ditch the rest of your roster (not that your using it now anyway!) vs loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor.

The difference I see with the 2* transition & 3* transition is that there was some middle ground - Taking Ares, Thor, OBW vs any transitioning team was doable. People were spreading their iso around according to what covers they were getting.
Now everyone will save all iso & just pump 2 characters which instead of a 9 month journey (my experience) will take a matter of weeks - according to the number of folks saying they can hit 100k iso a week in that other thread in the forum.

Unknown

Druss wrote:

Another issue with the 3* -> 4* transition imo is I just don't want to do it

eh? Why? you ask.

In 3* land there is a diverse choice of characters & strategies (admittedly some stronger than others) for instance I wouldn't consider 3* Torch top tier, but can be fun to throw him in now & then for good damage dealing etc. However this choice does not (yet) exist at 4* level because X-F & 4hor are so far ahead of the curve

So if by some miracle I did transition to 4* land what now:

1st battle: X-F + 4hor - that was great! won easily
2nd battle X-f + 4hor - that was great! won easily
50th battle - X-f + 4hor - I won (obviously)
150th battle - x-f + 4hor - zzzzzz

If things progress as they are EVERY battle will be loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor - to keep scaling down better ditch the rest of your roster (not that your using it now anyway!) vs loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor.

The difference I see with the 2* transition & 3* transition is that there was some middle ground - Taking Ares, Thor, OBW vs any transitioning team was doable. People were spreading their iso around according to what covers they were getting.
Now everyone will save all iso & just pump 2 characters which instead of a 9 month journey (my experience) will take a matter of weeks - according to the number of folks saying they can hit 100k iso a week in that other thread in the forum.

Just keep in mind 4* transition is new. With many support than cannons. I think the 4* will be as diverse as the 3*is now when they get a chance to introduce more 4*s. There aren't even 10 out yet.

_RiO_

IReallyHatePVP wrote:

I guess my point is this: This game is a challenge, and it varries in intensity at different levels. And it has to be. As soon as it stops being challenging, you stop playing.

Ironically; as soon as it stops being this challenging, I might actually start playing seriously again.
It's downright boring being stuck in Tractionless Three-star Transition. (Awkward alliteration, ahoy!)

Mikaveus

Druss wrote:

Another issue with the 3* -> 4* transition imo is I just don't want to do it

eh? Why? you ask.

In 3* land there is a diverse choice of characters & strategies (admittedly some stronger than others) for instance I wouldn't consider 3* Torch top tier, but can be fun to throw him in now & then for good damage dealing etc. However this choice does not (yet) exist at 4* level because X-F & 4hor are so far ahead of the curve

So if by some miracle I did transition to 4* land what now:

1st battle: X-F + 4hor - that was great! won easily
2nd battle X-f + 4hor - that was great! won easily
50th battle - X-f + 4hor - I won (obviously)
150th battle - x-f + 4hor - zzzzzz

If things progress as they are EVERY battle will be loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor - to keep scaling down better ditch the rest of your roster (not that your using it now anyway!) vs loaner + maxed X-F + 4hor.

The difference I see with the 2* transition & 3* transition is that there was some middle ground - Taking Ares, Thor, OBW vs any transitioning team was doable. People were spreading their iso around according to what covers they were getting.
Now everyone will save all iso & just pump 2 characters which instead of a 9 month journey (my experience) will take a matter of weeks - according to the number of folks saying they can hit 100k iso a week in that other thread in the forum.

3* Land is a TON of fun and the character covers aren't so elusive to drive you mad. It's work to max their levels, but the required ISO is reasonable. At the rate they push out 4* covers - to what less than 1% of PvP players - how quickly do you expect these 4* characters to catch on?

I really think forcing the move to 4* play is a mistake. Keep building the 3* ranks that so many love.

Unknown

Wobby wrote:

IReallyHatePVP wrote:

As soon as it stops being challenging, you stop playing.

This.
I've got 350,000 ISO and enough HP to go get my 4hor going. But why do that? To win 3* tournaments and then keep using the same two characters anyway?

I've been using Thor and Daken every PvP for the past 3-4 seasons. I get top 100 every time, and sometimes even top 25. Using the same characters doesn't bother me one bit as long as I'm winning the covers I want. If I had a max XF and 4* Thor, I'd be using them all the time too as long as I want to win. If I don't care about winning, then it's time to walk away...

El Satanno

Lerysh wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I daresay that others have the right of it in that OP isn't really in a position to be thinking about the 4* transition. But I think there are two similar issues which often get overshadowed here, and well worth examining.

First being that there isn't really a 4* transition. There is a 3* -> X-Force + 4* Thor transition. No one, and I mean no one is talking about the other 4* characters. They don't matter. At all. Hell, I'd rather have another copy of almost any one of my maxed 3* guys than one of the remaining 4*s. Fury's the only one somewhat in the running, and he is a distant-**** third.

I disagree with this. Given that Fury came out before A) Purple Damage was really a thing and 2) XF got boosted to the super stars he could use a slight power boost. I'd say maybe 50% to 100% damage increase on Escape Plan would do it. Demolition really really messes people up tho. If you got a fully covered Fury some how before an XF or a Thor he would help you get more XF and Thors. And there's speculation that Star Lord might be the new TGT go to partner, especially in like a Cyclops tournament. Collect a bunch of yellow and 9 blue, throw SL yellow, throw Cyclops yellow, throw TGT blue, kill a guy, match red, kill another guy, match blue maybe stun again, match red win. And if that didn't work out, take 10 purple to do 6,000 damage. Any existing 4* fully covered would help you get more 4*s, if only because some of the 3* rosters would stop attacking you in PvP.

(quote edited for brevity)

I think you're misreading me there. I am in no way arguing that Fury doesn't need some love. I'd love to see that. He's become a rather influential figure across the Marvel continuum, this game being no exception, and his power level ought to reflect it. How that love could possibly take shape is not the point. My point was, as the games stands presently, Nick Fury is nothing more than a shiny bell atop the freight train that is X-Force and 4* Thor.

Unless you're taking claim with my assertion that I'd rather have another 3* instead of one of them...at which point I admit to using a bit of creative flourish to drive home my point.

hex706f726368

PPPlaya wrote:

As others have already mentioned I do think it's in the realm of possibility to attain a 1000 score. At the cost of HP of course and the question then becomes how much HP is it worth to get that score? At what point is it too expensive? When does it make more sense to build up a team first for a lot of HP and then spend less HP on every consecutive attempt at 1000? First of all with 6 4-Stars and 3 Covers I need to wait 54 PvPs before I can finish him. In the meantime I can't casually get 1000 scores, so I have to choose carefully which events I try it. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend 7500 now and save a huge chunk of opportunity cost? As long as it's not sustainable you are basically just buying 4 Star covers for a discounted price.

If it's possible, I think you just need to figure out how possible and do the math. If you can hit 1k at say a 75% success rate for 800 HP. Then you can get your remaining 3 XF green covers for ~3200 HP. 3200 is obviously much less than 7500. Depending on how you feel your odds fall, it's possible your opportunity cost is in not trying for 1k.

You might have to make an initial investment as well to figure out what you think your success rate would be. You may find that deepening/strengthening your roster first is a better investment as it could help increase your odds of hitting 1k.

Marc_Spector

Not to change the subject... but am I the only one who misread this thread's subjectline as referring to a newly-announced 3-star Deathlok?

Unknown

I do understand the frustration of ppl struggling to get 4* covers and I both sympathise and agree that making it so you need a 4* hero to get 4* covers to make a 4* hero in any kind of sensible time frame is a bad design choice.

Having said that I just want to disagree with the suggestion that getting covers for, and levelling 3* heroes doesn't progress someone's roster. It kind of shows only half an understanding for what impacts PvP scoring. While we all know that Xforce and 4Thor can beat anyone with a loaner featured, having that highly levelled featured hero effects 2 things. Firstly it DOES impact whether 3* rosters lose to you but only really if the featured is useful. A 249 Beast isn't winning you much but a 249 Blade or Sentry has had a very noticable impact on my defensive wins in PvP, primarily vs 3*s or Xforce + 3*.

Secondly, and about as importantly, it's more health for someone to chew through. PvP isn't JUST about whether you win or lose on offence/defence but also how quickly you win AND how quickly you lose. I chat to a bunch of ppl and the ones who've gone hell for leather on their XoR or Xforce + Hood (or another 3*) and have a bunch of garbage underlevelled 3*s for featured heroes are much more regularly beaten mid hop, even on a 2 match hop and they rarely even bother with a 3 match hop.

On the other hand, when I have a decently levelled featured i'll 3 match hop happily and generally fairly safely. Those extra wins which are literally just brought about by the extra time it takes for someone to beat me (ESPECIALLY teams who lack a 4Thor.).

So i'll agree that, when you have a few top tier 3*s you're only going to significantly improve your PvE performance with a 4* (or 2) it is still worth getting those 3* covers and throwing some ISO their way.

Unknown

I firmly believe 4 star covers are reserved for veterans who don't have interest in grinding PVE and the only way to get the covers are from token pulls, hitting 1000 in PVP or grind PVE like a madman.

As a PVE player, my highest level character is a 150 Hulk with X force, Hood, Blade, LCap sitting at 135 (all fully covered) with some max 2 stars and several maxed three stars at 100. I really want the blue GT cover which is being offered for 1000 points but it will be extremely tough to hit, I tried the method mentioned above but the most I could get was probably around 750 before i ran into 270 GTs and XFs who bring me back down to 650-700.

Am always able to get around 25-30 but haven't been able to crack top 25. So my only option is to keep grinding till I get a good core and boost everyone up to 166. I did once get a GT red by being first in PVE but that was due to being extremely lucky due to weak shard. In the meantime, good things come to people who wait, so I will pray for token pulls!