New Health Tier [Updated]

Unknown

A quick word about this conversation:

The only bit of logic in it that I find problematic is the complaint that X-Force can abuse characters with less than 6k health. This part, at least, is functioning in a perfectly balanced way. Any quality nuke from a 3* will kill a squishy 2*. If being a 4* character means anything, the same should be true in the 4 vs. 3 match-ups.

The power of a new 3* like Cyclops and his black to do more or less the same thing, and the tendency for new characters to have enough hit points to stand up to X-Force calibre punishment when their peers cannot--those things indicate power creep. Right now an amped-up Smite can one-shot virtually anybody. If new characters were released that made this kind of stopping power more common and/or insufficient, the game would spiral into crazy territory pretty fast.

In short: cut off some of Cyke and IF's hit points. They're creepin'.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

A quick word about this conversation:

The only bit of logic in it that I find problematic is the complaint that X-Force can abuse characters with less than 6k health. This part, at least, is functioning in a perfectly balanced way. Any quality nuke from a 3* will kill a squishy 2*. If being a 4* character means anything, the same should be true in the 4 vs. 3 match-ups.

The power of a new 3* like Cyclops and his black to do more or less the same thing, and the tendency for new characters to have enough hit points to stand up to X-Force calibre punishment when their peers cannot--those things indicate power creep. Right now an amped-up Smite can one-shot virtually anybody. If new characters were released that made this kind of stopping power more common and/or insufficient, the game would spiral into crazy territory pretty fast.

In short: cut off some of Cyke and IF's hit points. They're creepin'.

What other 4* can possibly drop a 6K character almost unconditionally with a 3 match move? X Force usually does about 4000-5000 damage depending on what tiles it destroyed and what cascade it caused, but not counting whatever AP it may have picked up that can be used for other damage. This is a 3 match move and generally sufficient to kill a 6K or under character with whatever match damage you did earlier. Let's look at all the other 4*s:

IW - nope

Elektra - nope

Star-Lord - Oldest Trick in the Book can do more damage for 3 matches, and I hope you're feeling very lucky to have a vital part of your plan based around a CD that must survive for 3 turns that cannot be placed.

Thor - Smite is 4 matches and still not enough. If you need to throw in a Power Surge, that's 4+3 matches, and note that in this case, you're still attacking the first person so you would not get any kind of lockdown so this can easily backfire.

Nick Fury - All his moves are 4 matches. Avenger's Assemble at maximum strength can do it but that's 12/5/5/5 (you'd need the red, green, and the likely purple cascade damage). Demolition can do it but it takes a random amount of time before the AI trips over it, though occasionally you might be able to engineer a match 4 to acclerate this.

The only character that can match the raw firepower in a 3 match move is Star-Lord and Oldest Trick in the Book isn't exactly a reliable skill. In the 4 match territory we still don't have an unconditional kill, not to mention in this range you bring Surgical Strike into play for X Force as well.

By the way, if you apply the same criteria for 3* vs 2*, the only 3* that can kill a 2* with a 3 match move unconditionally is Human Torch, but he's got one of the lowest HP class in the game to balance that. Berserker Rage can do it conditionally, but the drawback for Berserker Rage is obvious. Battleplan will quickly kill anyone but it does take a few turns before the damage kicks in, so at least your opponent has a chance to try to get rid of Battleplan. Now, nobody thinks Human Torch is overpowered even relative to 2*, so the ability to abuse certain low HP characters itself isn't bad, but HT's drawbacks are quite obvious while there's virtually no drawback to X Force.

Scoregasms

In my mind, it's just easier to "balance" going forward then to try and fix everything that came before if you have a limited budget/timetable. These new characters seem to do a good job to at least have folks discuss the end game in a slightly different view. More health has always been a pretty constant pro (or con depending on which side you are on) to 4* characters, giving 3* more health and some pretty awesome damage dealing abilities may not break the meta line, but it helps to blur it, even if it is only very slightly.

If they continue to further blur the line and release characters that are in this same design philosophy, it should help everyone, especially if these continue to be 3*. I think folks are asking for a lot for them to go back and update all the previous characters. However "easy" folks want to think this would be, I'm sure they have their reasons for those health pools (be they valid or not based on current standards).

GrumpySmurf1002

Phantron wrote:

By the way, if you apply the same criteria for 3* vs 2*, the only 3* that can kill a 2* with a 3 match move unconditionally is Human Torch, but he's got one of the lowest HP class in the game to balance that. Berserker Rage can do it conditionally, but the drawback for Berserker Rage is obvious. Battleplan will quickly kill anyone but it does take a few turns before the damage kicks in, so at least your opponent has a chance to try to get rid of Battleplan. Now, nobody thinks Human Torch is overpowered even relative to 2*, so the ability to abuse certain low HP characters itself isn't bad, but HT's drawbacks are quite obvious while there's virtually no drawback to X Force.

Two others:

With the same condition above (where XForce does ~4500 but you're crediting 6k because match damage to get there, plus cascades I assume): Magneto can kill cStorm with his red, and has potential to wipe out any 2* support (or at least make it trivial to finish) on any standard board.

Daredevil can with a 3-match move, same way Fury does with a 4-move. Not immediate but it's there. And he can kill any 2*, not just support with it.

One other point, if you boost Fury's health, then XForce is in the lowest health tier of a 4* save for IW. Creating 4* with health in tiers above XF and below 4or would give XForce the same condition as Torch, 3 match move with 2nd lowest HP tier.

konannfriends

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

By the way, if you apply the same criteria for 3* vs 2*, the only 3* that can kill a 2* with a 3 match move unconditionally is Human Torch, but he's got one of the lowest HP class in the game to balance that. Berserker Rage can do it conditionally, but the drawback for Berserker Rage is obvious. Battleplan will quickly kill anyone but it does take a few turns before the damage kicks in, so at least your opponent has a chance to try to get rid of Battleplan. Now, nobody thinks Human Torch is overpowered even relative to 2*, so the ability to abuse certain low HP characters itself isn't bad, but HT's drawbacks are quite obvious while there's virtually no drawback to X Force.

Two others:

With the same condition above (where XForce does ~4500 but you're crediting 6k because match damage to get there, plus cascades I assume): Magneto can kill cStorm with his red, and has potential to wipe out any 2* support (or at least make it trivial to finish) on any standard board.

Daredevil can with a 3-match move, same way Fury does with a 4-move. Not immediate but it's there. And he can kill any 2*, not just support with it.

One other point, if you boost Fury's health, then XForce is in the lowest health tier of a 4* save for IW. Creating 4* with health in tiers above XF and below 4or would give XForce the same condition as Torch, 3 match move with 2nd lowest HP tier.

As Far as 4* go I think there all fine besides. Invisible woman ( why isn't taking so long to change force bubbles to passive) but like in Electra case. 10 red gets you 1000 damage a turn. Its not a nuke but it good and not too expensive.

Double double cross May seem bad but if you save 14 ap you got roughly 500 damage strike tile.

Black is good because you don't take damag le and it's still not vert costly.

I think lady THOR isn't too op. I do think her red should be increased to
12 since. But her yellow sucks **** so there her blind spot

Wolvie is very Op his black depletes your ap. Gains it for him and still does 4k. And it doesn't even end the turn (But invisible woman's weak green power does?)

orbitalint

konannfriends wrote:

As Far as 4* go I think there all fine besides. Invisible woman ( why isn't taking so long to change force bubbles to passive) but like in Electra case. 10 red gets you 1000 damage a turn. Its not a nuke but it good and not too expensive.

Double double cross May seem bad but if you save 14 ap you got roughly 500 damage strike tile.

My main issue with Elektra's abilities is that they are all based on future expected damage output. Forget about the whole trap overwrite issue - 14 of any AP should be a nuke, not 500 damage after you make a move...

BP Black, Whales, Call of the Storm...those seem like the realm of AP required rather than a 500 damage strike tile or 1000 damage a turn...even for a 3*, seems under powered. I think both her and Starlord were intended for 3* treatment if not for the overwhelming need to slow down the dissemination of 4*'s at the 1000 point mark in PVP. They added more to the rotation to do that.

konannfriends

orbitalint wrote:

konannfriends wrote:

As Far as 4* go I think there all fine besides. Invisible woman ( why isn't taking so long to change force bubbles to passive) but like in Electra case. 10 red gets you 1000 damage a turn. Its not a nuke but it good and not too expensive.

Double double cross May seem bad but if you save 14 ap you got roughly 500 damage strike tile.

My main issue with Elektra's abilities is that they are all based on future expected damage output. Forget about the whole trap overwrite issue - 14 of any AP should be a nuke, not 500 damage after you make a move...

BP Black, Whales, Call of the Storm...those seem like the realm of AP required rather than a 500 damage strike tile or 1000 damage a turn...even for a 3*, seems under powered. I think both her and Starlord were intended for 3* treatment if not for the overwhelming need to slow down the dissemination of 4*'s at the 1000 point mark in PVP. They added more to the rotation to do that.

I don't think any 4* needs and AoE have you been hit by whales before?. 166 > 270 is at least 5k AoE.

Sure Elekta By her self may be **** but can't she be hard counter pick for daken , Blade, Punnisher and even op Maggia . she has her uses and with the right team mate ( Luke cage, She hulk, Iron Fist, Patch) she gets the job done