New Health Tier [Updated]

Unknown

I agree with everyone that realizes that cyclops is...just a dude physically. Trained up like anyone else who hits the gym...a bullet can kill him so his health shouldn't be too high imo. As far as how difficult they are to kill...I don't know I would think he survives due to his stature in comic history and popularity, not necessarily because of his physical prowess.

Now I don't know what else happened to him, I thought I read he was super powered now after absorbing some Phoenix powers or something but...that's my general thought on him and his health.

Phaserhawk

My gut tells me this is the begining of some long term balance changes. guys with more health make everyone happy. D3 loves it because more health means longer matches, which means more retaliation and more health pack and HP sales. Players like it because their guy feels tougher.

Yes it doesn't make sense flavor wise to the rest of the characters, but with comparision's to Cap. 1 he's a Super Soldier, 2, he has his shield. Thus the high health points. I would also ask why he has more than Wolverine but wolvie heals so perhaps that can be dismissed, but having more than Spiderman or Punisher doesn't make sense. Unless it's some residual effect from the Phonenix Force I would like an explanation.

Unknown

My gut tells me it's time for pop tarts (hopefully chocolate) and caffeine (better be Mt Dew)

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

My gut tells me this is the begining of some long term balance changes. guys with more health make everyone happy. D3 loves it because more health means longer matches, which means more retaliation and more health pack and HP sales. Players like it because their guy feels tougher.

Yes it doesn't make sense flavor wise to the rest of the characters, but with comparision's to Cap. 1 he's a Super Soldier, 2, he has his shield. Thus the high health points. I would also ask why he has more than Wolverine but wolvie heals so perhaps that can be dismissed, but having more than Spiderman or Punisher doesn't make sense. Unless it's some residual effect from the Phonenix Force I would like an explanation.

There's definitely something to the first bit, even if it slides slightly into the tinfoil hat territory. Not that I'm judging, mind you. I'm wearing mine right now. It stops the satellites from reading my mind. It's also very stylish. I think in the future everyone will be wearing them, but I digress. Suffice to say, no game or balance decision is made without some consideration of the bottom line. Dolla dolla bills, y'all.

To the second point, part of the problem with all of this is that these concepts surrounding hit points and damage are all very abstract. The Punisher, for example, isn't literally getting shot repeatedly by tommy guns or blown up by rockets as he takes damage. He's just a guy, albeit in some slick armor and super sexy go-go boots. But if a rocket hit him in the face he'd be dead. Damage in that context is more a representation of stamina, or focus, or whatever you want to call it. His ability to avoid attacks that would kill him dead until he just can't do it anymore and finally succumbs. For someone like Wolverine it probably is more literal, since he's more inclined to just wade through attacks and regenerate. Spiderman, spider-sense. Cap, peek human endurance and shield. Etc. If they think new fancy-pants Cyclops has more super-moxy that allows him to linger in battle longer, that's an arbitrary distinction based on all of the above. It doesn't mean you can punch him in the head one more time than Daredevil before he falls down.

Long story short (too late): Damage and hit points are abstract, game balance is arbitrary, tinfoil hats are awesome, dolla dolla bills.

rednailz

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Again, I don't read comics so I have no idea what I'm talking about. I just looked at the art between cyclops and cap, thought "hey, these two like normal humans without anything crazy going on and so are probably about equally tanky". Okay... now I feel like I have offended a legion of comic book fans that are probably thinking of **** me, so I'll be running off now.

Booted by the comic geeks NP. foreshame

Mawtful

Bumping this. With a second character at 7650, I think we have more to discuss. I updated the OP, my question is: who else currently should be bumped up (or down) to this new health tier? Beast, almost definitely.

Unknown

Mawtful wrote:

Bumping this. With a second character at 7650, I think we have more to discuss. I updated the OP, my question is: who else currently should be bumped up (or down) to this new health tier? Beast, almost definitely.

No one should be below 6800 HP as long as X Force (and now Iron Fist) can trivially abuse a sub 6K HP character with no drawback whatsoever. Of course you'll have new problems if The Hood has 6800 HP but trying to pretend The Hood doesn't exist by allowing certain characters to instant kill him is just running away from the problem. Right now we're in a phase where things has to get worse before they can get better, so why not let people have some fun abusing The Hood with 6800 or even 7650 HP while a long term solution is being worked out? It's already silly that anyone under 6K HP just flat out dies on the high end of PvP so it's not going to be any worse.

Unknown

I dunno about 6800 health minimum. I'm ok with Hood at 5100. Makes him good on offense, **** on defense, which is fine. There is some inconsistency at the sub 6800 tho, Loki has 5950 for some reason, Mystique, Falcon, GSBW 5950, Storm and Hood 5100. Maybe we bump Storm and Hood to 5950, and some of those 6800 guys to 7650.

Also, putting this here from the other thread.

Lerysh wrote:

Ok, @Demiurge_MIles, but the above is also true of (at least) Punisher, Blade, Deadpool, and probably others but those guys get 6800 health? (Not to mention Wolverine and Daken, but those guys regen so their health max is a lie anyway).

There already exists a tier of health for "hard to take down" guys that aren't Thor level bricks. It was 8500. If you aren't strong enough to get 8500 health you get 6800 health. Now Cyclops and Iron Fist with their 7650 is throwing off the whole dynamic. You can not convince me either of these guys is harder to take down than Deadpool.

If 7650 is going to be a thing now as a health tier, I'd say perhaps a few characters could use a boost? I've always felt Deadpool should have had 8500 to begin with the way his functions, but I'd take 7650. Also Blade, even with his out of combat true healing, feels too squishy at 6800.

Also also wik, Hood and Cyclops may both have "natural human physique" but Hoods a wimp with a gun and Cyclops is an athlete. They don't need the same health value. Punisher (for one) does at least need as much health as Cyclops tho, if not more. He may get bumped, brused, and broken, but he doesn't get defeated.

konannfriends

Guys we are all forgetting that Captain Marvel. The woman who can fly 6 times the speed of sound. Who is not a top human physique but instead is super human. With super human Stamina , strength , speed and durability has 8500 health and shares that with black panther ,Lazy Cap, and Iron Man.

Not many people in the Marvel Universe are on the Cosmic level and Are super human

Where's my 9100 tier

Unknown

this was my gripe when Blade came out 6,800 health for a Vampire who wears armor and can fight multiple enemies at once should have at least Cap, BP health of 8,500. Blade is way above those to when its comes to stamina and strength

IamTheBiggs

Cyclops is a blaster. Two facts about blasters:
1) blasters do hella damage
2) blasters are squishy

'Nuff said.

CaptainFreaky

So, if it's about story and "how tough it is to take a guy (or gal) out in a fight" - then I have one word for you:



That's right - Daredevil. This is a guy who regularly and repeatedly gets the **** beaten out of him and just keeps on going. He's the very definition of "focus" - heck he's BLIND for tinykitty's sake! - plus, hello Radar Sense anyone? Pretty good for avoiding what might be lethal blows. Plus, he's got Ninja training, and a boxing background (to better withstand punishment)...and the list goes on and on. Basically (and in some ways similar to a hero like Cap), he NEVER GIVES UP. Not to mention he had that seminal run by Miller & Jansen - which was totally boss.

If anyone deserves to be bumped up into a higher 3* health class - it's this guy. If not to 8500, then at least to 7650.

But, all that said, I don't expect Demiurge to tinker with existing character's health pools. I expect instead for them to release new characters every two weeks that redefine the game and generally create power creep with more damage and more health..and then more damage as the cycle repeats.

Anyway - just wanted to shot out some respect for ol' hornhead - he's earned it.

konannfriends

CaptainFreaky wrote:

So, if it's about story and "how tough it is to take a guy (or gal) out in a fight" - then I have one word for you:



That's right - Daredevil. This is a guy who regularly and repeatedly gets the **** beaten out of him and just keeps on going. He's the very definition of "focus" - heck he's BLIND for tinykitty's sake! - plus, hello Radar Sense anyone? Pretty good for avoiding what might be lethal blows. Plus, he's got Ninja training, and a boxing background (to better withstand punishment)...and the list goes on and on. Basically (and in some ways similar to a hero like Cap), he NEVER GIVES UP. Not to mention he had that seminal run by Miller & Jansen - which was totally boss.

If anyone deserves to be bumped up into a higher 3* health class - it's this guy. If not to 8500, then at least to 7650.

But, all that said, I don't expect Demiurge to tinker with existing character's health pools. I expect instead for them to release new characters every two weeks that redefine the game and generally create power creep with more damage and more health..and then more damage as the cycle repeats.

Anyway - just wanted to shot out some respect for ol' hornhead - he's earned it.

Since we are getting technical does that mean PHEONIX WILL HAVE

3*: 11500
4* 19050

I highly doubt it. So they need to stop spewing that **** about it represents how hard it is to take them out.
Cuz I'm sure if I hit Wolverine **** with a car he gon get right up so where's his 10200
And **** if I stabbed Squirell girl **** in the stomach I'm sure she's gonna bleed out so why she got more health than storm?
Also Mr. Fantastic wouldn't even feel **** if HULK punched him so he gonna have 10200 too

Fix the health and stop justifying

Xenoberyll

By that logic there would have to be a lot higher health for many characters and lower health for others. Hulk having only 2x the health of captain america? Old man Magneto having more health than a God, Loki!?...

This is a game and it's more about balancing than "realistic portrait" of the comic book characters.

Phaserhawk

The thing is, 4* and 2* characters aside there are some characters who should have high or low health just based upon their character and there are others that need the high or low health for balance issues and with that I can understand and agree, but currently nothing seems to be making sense.

I think what needs to happen is some set standards but have exceptions.

First and foremost all health should be based off of the same standard my suggestion would be HULK

Hulk should and must always have the highest health of all 3*'s which he does, but the rest need to be balanced off of this

Hulk Tier (maybe could add Sentry)
Tank Tier
Tank/Bruiser Tier
Bruiser Tier
High Damage Bruiser Tier
Support Tier
Hood Tier

This is where Characters should Fall

---

Hulk
Sentry

---

Captain Marvel
Colossus
Ragnarok
Rocket and Groot
She-Hulk
Thor

---

Beast
Black Panther
Captain America
Doctor Doom
Gamora
Iron Man
Luke Cage
Spiderman

---

Blade
Daken
Daredevil
Deadpool
Doc Ock
Punisher
Wolverine

---

Black Widow
Human Torch
Iron Fist
Cyclops
Magento
Mystique
Storm

---

etc. you guys can fill in the rest. There are a few that are hard to place, like Dr. Doom, Doc Ock, Magneto, Loki where they don't really fit in one or the other, but again having a set standard makes sense, just randomly throwing hit points out just feels off.

Unknown

I think the core problem of this issue is that there are two competing desires for these characters:

1. Make the character faithful to their comic source material
2. Make the character balanced for a competitive video game

Unfortunately these two goals are going to butt heads a lot this universe. Comic creators did not have video game balance in mind when they dreamed up these characters so it really didn't matter if someone like the Sentry could, in comic terms, totally decimate most of the competition. However, as time went on writers discovered that flawed or not overly powered characters might make for better story-telling, and so many of these kinds of characters became fan favorites. So, as fans, we'd like to be able to use our favorite characters, but we'd also like to have a shot at actually winning things, too.

Phaserhawk

adamLmpq wrote:

I think the core problem of this issue is that there are two competing desires for these characters:

1. Make the character faithful to their comic source material
2. Make the character balanced for a competitive video game

Unfortunately these two goals are going to butt heads a lot this universe. Comic creators did not have video game balance in mind when they dreamed up these characters so it really didn't matter if someone like the Sentry could, in comic terms, totally decimate most of the competition. However, as time went on writers discovered that flawed or not overly powered characters might make for better story-telling, and so many of these kinds of characters became fan favorites. So, as fans, we'd like to be able to use our favorite characters, but we'd also like to have a shot at actually winning things, too.

I agree there are going to be gray areas, but if devs go in saying, okay, we want him to fit into the bruiser health bracket, so let's have skills that would be of that caliber. But if the skills end up being really cool and strong then perhaps the health gets tweaked down or if they aren't super powerful the health can be tweaked up to balance but I think those would be few exceptions rather than constant.

rednailz

Xenoberyll wrote:

By that logic there would have to be a lot higher health for many characters and lower health for others. Hulk having only 2x the health of captain america? Old man Magneto having more health than a God, Loki!?...

This is a game and it's more about balancing than "realistic portrait" of the comic book characters.

In all fairness you can be a god and have some lower constitution IMO. I could see hulk having only twice the health as cap since cap can be nearly invicible sometimes if Hulk went into some beserker mode once he has less than 50% health (which is what anger sorta does in a way)

But these are a stretch and if you're trying to relate health ratios from the comics to the game you're going to driver yourself mad!

Phaserhawk

Xenoberyll wrote:

By that logic there would have to be a lot higher health for many characters and lower health for others. Hulk having only 2x the health of captain america? Old man Magneto having more health than a God, Loki!?...

This is a game and it's more about balancing than "realistic portrait" of the comic book characters.

If one looks at it this way. You are essentially Nick Fury and you are trying to create a 3 person team to beat another 3 person team. You ask Loki to join you, he doesn't want to so he puts in a half-assed job which is why after 5950 hit points he's like, "I'm done" and goes back to doing his own thing, or you could say it is really just one of his illusions that's helping you as the true Loki is just too busy to give you his full time.

It's the same Logic I could see massively boosting Dr. Doom but lower his hit points because nothing is worth his time but his own.

I think health much like color scheme is a good guideline to follow, but not a hard and fast rule. With my Loki example, it could make sense for him not having huge health, but someone like Spiderman doesn't make much sense to be 6800 when he's, well Spiderman and he has no damage skills what so ever

Unknown

adamLmpq wrote:

Comic creators did not have video game balance in mind when they dreamed up these characters so it really didn't matter if someone like the Sentry could, in comic terms, totally decimate most of the competition. However, as time went on writers discovered that flawed or not overly powered characters might make for better story-telling, and so many of these kinds of characters became fan favorites. So, as fans, we'd like to be able to use our favorite characters, but we'd also like to have a shot at actually winning things, too.

There's also the matter that comic book characters don't even necessarily exhibit the same level of power across all comics or story arcs. Characters are almost always depicted as being more powerful in their own books vs being "on the road" in someone else's title, regularly fluctuate in power based on consequences of various plot devices, and are constantly subjected to the whims and prejudices of writers who show clear favoritism towards some characters over others.