Proposal: Increase the Power Cap limit to 15.

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mechgouki wrote:

Phantron, you also have to consider the people who screwed up their builds. What about the people who did their builds wrong before they realized there was a power cap? Or before a bombshell nerf was dropped on them.

A 5/5/5 Ares might not be that different from a 4/4/5. But it will make a difference for those who screwed up their builds and went 5/5/3.

Ideally, my aim is to make a change that will ultimately result in no one ever having to bang their heads on the wall realizing they just made a mistake in their builds, without breaking the current game.

A respec option is most ideal of course. But considering the Devs, or AHEM, d3 have absolutely and utterly refused to do anything worth a damn about it, apart from giving us a few updates where they have explicitly expressed that they will give no promises.

Considering the fact that a respec system will probably, NOT BE IMPLEMENTED ANYWHERE IN THIS LIFETIME, raising the power cap limit to 15 is probably the best option for making sure that no one will be screwed in the **** for gimping their build.

Have you looked around the forum lately? Devs have just in this past week have us a much clearer idea if the respec system they've been working on. The way it looks like it may work is when you have for example a 5/5/3 and wish to add more yellow, you simply train another yellow power, then you choose whether red or green will be removed. It's taking forever to implement but progress is clearly being made.

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Phantron wrote:

Realistically, since there are rarely any interesting options for character builds, whether the cap is 13 or 15 really doesn't matter. For example almost everyone have Ares as 4/4/5. You can simply consider 4/4/5 as who Ares is, and since everyone has 4/4/5 Ares it's no different than if everyone has 5/5/5 Ares so you might as well leave it alone. I guess you can also argue since there's no difference then why not make everyone able to hit 5/5/5, but then you'd also have to rebalance the guys who only have 2 powers (they'd be even weaker relatively), though if 5/5/5 become a common thing, then you can easily go back and add a 3rd power to the 2 power guys and it would always work out. Currently, revising 2 power characters is troublesome. Imagine Ragnarok gets a blue that is '1 AP, kills the entire enemy team at level 5 and ONLY at level 5', well, there's a lot of people who can't possibly get that if they already have at least 9 covers in Ragnarok even though it'd be a no brainer to take this power to level 5.

That has more to do with 2 things:
1. Poorly balanced character lvls. Ares, for example, has nice even skills, and as a character I hardly think he is op or anything. Nice balance. His skill LEVELS though are not. Lvls 1-3 don't matter, as everyone gets them, lvls 4/5 do matter and they should be of equal usefulness going from 3-4 and of equal usefulness going from 4-5. On the other hand I think hulk and punisher were very well built in regards to balance. Most builds have workable logic behind them and while 3/5/5 might be the "choice" right now it is by no means the end all be all. Most of their early character have this issue and it causes characters to have #2.

2. Cookie cutter builds. They are always there and they will always hurt progress. Even when there are multiple viable builds ppl start to say "I would do this for this reason" and everyone else goes "ohh yes" like a lemming until someone else proves another build tonne good and gives reasons behind it. Sometimes cookie cutter builds fall more into logic builds though, such as ares, where there is really no reason to go a diff direction except for extenuating circumstances. The problem, is ppl looking for a cookie cutter build never take into account these circumstances. Example? Building the new wolverine 3/5/5 instead of whatever most will say because you plan on using a team that uses green elsewhere.

The goal should be to add diversity not simplicity. Maybe the old cards will just be imbalanced forever but newer covers will hopefully be made with better balance both compared to the game, compared to the character's other skills, and compared to each level.

P.s- I think thier last 3 characters (punisher, hulk, patches) has all 3 had better skill balance than mist of thier other characters...though my guess is patches will be rather op as he currently is. I mean, you basically have to kill him in 1-3 turns if power usage..which will be nearly impossible if you team him with a Loki to make the enemy strike tiles into his own.

Unknown

Nice response sonoetell. Not gonna quote due to the lengthiness.

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It's almost impossible to come up with meaningful variety. Variety generally just means 'one build is a lot stronger than everything else'. On characters where there is less consensus on what's the best build, like The Punisher, it's only because all of his skills are relatively boring so people can't agree. That said, I find it hard to believe most people can't identify the very best skills. For example if you've Wolverine you should have 5g. Whether you put 5r or 5y or some combination is okay as long as you got the 5g. Likewise Ares is really about his 5y, and how you mix the r/g is within an acceptable limit since you're primary power comes from the 5y.

So in light of that I think variety doesn't really matter, so I'm indifferent to whether you should have 13 or 15 powers. Having 15 powers would make it easier if they ever decide to go back to add powers to the 2 power characters, since by definition there's no way anyone who currently has a maxed 2 power character can build their character correctly if the third ability turns out to be good, but this also means they'd have to go back and add a third power to all the 2 power characers, since otherwise this will further marginalize the usefulness of the 2 power characters, so I can see why they don't want to do this yet.

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@Soenot

Well, at least they have achieved something. They have finally given back Loki a place in the team again.

Unknown

I mostly agree with the original poster

I understand the appeal of character customisation, but is restricting powers to 13/15 the most creative and inspired way of addressing it?
And as already argued, it mostly just forces people to make 'optimal' builds, which means all it does is leave the player base who don't frequent the forums out in the cold.

Perhaps an extra layer of gameplay on top the pre existing power and boost system should be implemented to allow for character customisation? I understand that the concept of customisation of any kind involves forgoing one advantage in favor of another, but limiting powers to 2 shy of their maximum for this end is too simplistic a mechanic and borderline lazy. In practice it's just a trap for some players to screw up, either through ignorance or a patch rendering their build useless.

I don't think the 2 powers vs 3 powers argument is a great one either. Those 2 power characters either can have their stats brought up to par or are unfinished and require a third power through a patch, as I believe was what had happened with OBW.

Unknown

Well assuming there's a corresponding bump in levels for having 15 covers (say level 100 for ** and 150 for *** and 250 for ****) you have to go back and add a third power to the 2 power characters because otherwise these characters are not competitive at all. I suppose you can make it so that the last 2 covers don't raise your level cap any. You really can't go back and scale this stuff because otherwise everyone will wake up and found out that there level 85 characters is now suddenly 70, and your level 140 characters are now suddenly level 120. There probably isn't any net loss in power if this is done correctly, but there's absolutely no reason to make people feel like their characters got nerfed when you're not actually trying to nerf them.

Unknown

I don't think you understand what I meant. My first example, just because a character has 3 colors doesn't necessarily mean he will be better than 2-color characters. My example and case in point, Bagman and Daken. And previously, Ragnarok top most 3-color characters despite being only 2 color, until the nerf at least.

Nice example of getting the worst character in the game, who just so happens to have 3 colors, and compare him against a very good character with 2-abilities. You also chose Ragnarok, an exception, the most overpowered character in the game (pre-patch) to make your case. A good way of bending and deceiving the truth towards your favor.

Secondly, I'm pointing out that 3 color characters already have the advantage of a higher level cap, having 2 more power levels which do not further increase that cap will NOT make it more unbalanced than it already is.

I thought your whole argument was about making 15/15 sound not too strong, but now you're saying that having 13/15 is already unbalanced enough against 10/10, and now you want it to be 15/15? How does that help your case? Adding 2 more points in abilities will give you a huge advantage since the biggest changes in almost every character comes from the very last ability (5th.)

Thirdly, the idea of diversity is to have different builds and different combinations. How many different builds do you think you can squeeze out for Ragnarok? The point is that for all 2-color characters, the end build is ALWAYS 5/5. There is only 1 build for 2-color characters. The whole "we want diversity" argument is out the window.

And yet maxing out three ability characters to be one straight trunk is somehow more diversifying than being able to branch out into different abilities, while not having the exact same build as everyone else?

Having 2-color characters with only a single build, while forcing 3-color characters to have build limitations, just completely make the thing unfair.

Because having a higher tile damage, health, and having an extra ability is definitely fair already. Giving 3-ability characters an extra 2 ability points would definitely make things more fair

Fourth point. You said 2 color characters have disadvantage over 3-color characters. Well, 2* star characters also have disadvantage over 3 stars. 1 star characters have disadvantage over 2 star.

Another great comparison, just like your previous comparison of bagman and daken

Oh yes, my argument is bad, but you are simply unable to discuss and talk about exactly why. That makes perfect sense.

This is the reason why, because I don't want to spend all my time pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

Unknown

Nice example of getting the worst character in the game, who just so happens to have 3 colors, and compare him against a very good character with 2-abilities. You also chose Ragnarok, an exception, the most overpowered character in the game (pre-patch) to make your case. A good way of bending and deceiving the truth towards your favor.

Oh, so pointing out actual facts as evidence and support as your claim, counts and bending and deceiving truth to you? Well that really explains a lot.

There is nothing wrong with the examples that I have pointed out. Those are facts. I didn't make them up. They just happened to be on the extreme end.

The point that I am trying to make here is that there is very little correlation with that of the usefulness of a character, and the amount of colors that he/she has. It is the skills and the combination of skills that ultimately determine the usefulness of that character.

Just because a character has 3 colors, doesn't necessarily make him better than a 2-color character of the same rarity.

To say that 2-color characters will always lose out the 3-color ones is fallacious. Fail statement.

I thought your whole argument was about making 15/15 sound not too strong, but now you're saying that having 13/15 is already unbalanced enough against 10/10, and now you want it to be 15/15? How does that help your case? Adding 2 more points in abilities will give you a huge advantage since the biggest changes in almost every character comes from the very last ability (5th.)

I suggest you read my message again. Clearly stated in my topic, there are no characters that will become OP just because they are able to reach 15 from 13. Unless those builds were **** in the first place. The only exceptions are Spidey and Mag, whom both of which were OP to begin with, and will be nerfed soon.

You name me one other character who will become absolute OP if changed from 13 to 15, and I will take back what I have said. Go ahead, name me a character that will break the game or throw it out of balance just because he/she has 2 more levels in powers.

And yet maxing out three ability characters to be one straight trunk is somehow more diversifying than being able to branch out into different abilities, while not having the exact same build as everyone else?

You keep missing my point. The devs have already thrown out diversity for 2-color characters by making them only one possible end-combination. Why should it fall on the 3 color characters to be responsible for diversity? At the very least, making it 15 power cap will make it FAIR, if not diverse.

Because having a higher tile damage, health, and having an extra ability is definitely fair already. Giving 3-ability characters an extra 2 ability points would definitely make things more fair

You do realize that you can still set the level cap at 50, 85, 141, without actually increasing that cap, even when you increase the power cap, right?

Another great comparison, just like your previous comparison of bagman and daken

Again, actual scenarios, actual facts, actual evidence.

You have level 40 characters, you have level 230 characters. What a real balanced system, yeah. Nothing is absolutely unbalanced here the way this game is now. Yay.

This is the reason why, because I don't want to spend all my time pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

Perhaps you should spend the time trying to spot the countless of flaws in your own arguments instead.

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Phantron wrote:

It's almost impossible to come up with meaningful variety. Variety generally just means 'one build is a lot stronger than everything else'. On characters where there is less consensus on what's the best build, like The Punisher, it's only because all of his skills are relatively boring so people can't agree. That said, I find it hard to believe most people can't identify the very best skills. For example if you've Wolverine you should have 5g. Whether you put 5r or 5y or some combination is okay as long as you got the 5g. Likewise Ares is really about his 5y, and how you mix the r/g is within an acceptable limit since you're primary power comes from the 5y.

So in light of that I think variety doesn't really matter, so I'm indifferent to whether you should have 13 or 15 powers. Having 15 powers would make it easier if they ever decide to go back to add powers to the 2 power characters, since by definition there's no way anyone who currently has a maxed 2 power character can build their character correctly if the third ability turns out to be good, but this also means they'd have to go back and add a third power to all the 2 power characters, since otherwise this will further marginalize the usefulness of the 2 power characters, so I can see why they don't want to do this yet.

Are you telling me that if punisher's red killed at 50% @skill 5, his green dropped 4 tiles at skill 5 and his black gave you a 1 turn countdown tile at skull 5 that there would be "boring skills with no purpose between them?". What if the skill 4 ability for 4 green moved it from 2 tiles to 3? Red made it 20-35% and black made the countdown tile from 3-2? Those are important differences that make you think about each change you make. A 3/5/5 might be great for pve. A 5/5/3 is probably great for PvP as long as you have a red user. Would you consider using a 4/5/4 if you don't like att tiles? Etc etc. It's more about the characters lacking interesting worthwhile options than anything. Too many are trivial changes between 3-4 or 4-5. I will agree that punisher and hulk fall into balance more on a "Ehh, I don't care where I put the last skill" more than a "omg...how do I Choooose.". Patches tho I believe has 3 very good skills and each 4/5 lvl makes a difference. He isn't perfect, but he is the best they have made so far in relation to skill vs skill vs lvl. ..... Though he is probably op ..doh.

Unknown

@mech
I can't believe it, you just said the same thing again but reworded it. Not only were your arguments the same you made earlier, you brought no new evidence to support yourself on how raising the cap to 15/15 from 13/15 would make things more "fair." It only unbalances things and makes the game more stale, since, you know, everyone would have the exact same character with the exact same abilities in a strategy game. It would turn more luck based to see who gets the better tile matches rather than carefully planning what powers to use that you specifically matched because you decided to go a different route than the opponent with the same character. See? 15/15 would only take away from the match and game rather than add to it.

Unknown

I think power limit being at 13 brings some variety, so I don't see it as a bad thing.

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KevinMark wrote:

I think power limit being at 13 brings some variety, so I don't see it as a bad thing.

I said it was illogical. But I didn't say it was a bad thing. The bad thing is, getting stuck at a build that you do not want. Which I'm sure that you've just experienced for yourself.

2 ways to solve this problem. The first, a respec system, which they have refused for the longest time. The second, what I am suggesting right now.

GT-47LM wrote:

@mech
you brought no new evidence to support yourself on how raising the cap to 15/15 from 13/15 would make things more "fair."

It will make things fair, by making it that you don't have to worry about screwing up your 3-color characters, like the way you don't have to worry about your 2-color characters now.

GT-47LM wrote:

It only unbalances things and makes the game more stale, since, you know, everyone would have the exact same character with the exact same abilities in a strategy game.

We still have 32 available characters to choose from. Different team combinations. Teams comprising of characters that aren't screwed by a restriction that forces them to use **** builds.

GT-47LM wrote:

See? 15/15 would only take away from the match and game rather than add to it.

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It will take away about as much as what 10/10 builds have already taken away.

Unknown

We still have 32 available characters to choose from. Different team combinations. Teams comprising of characters that aren't screwed by a restriction that forces them to use **** builds.

I agree with you their, but as you can see now, you'll only be finding teams using a select few characters. Going up into high level play (or even mid) would narrow that list down even further.

It will take away about as much as what 10/10 builds have already taken away.

Having only two abilities is what makes them different, and being able to max them out at 10/10 instead of, say, 8/10, is necessary to be able to make them compete against 13/15 characters with 3 abilities.