Scaling seems more broken than ever

Unknown

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster. It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up. If you actually use your 2 star roster and end the game with them at like half hp, your scaling is minimally affected. If you boost GoT and XFW and take them out in 2 turns at full hp, obviously the node scales up like a beast.

You seem to think scaling is a linear thing, like if you beat this node it goes up by 5 levels and if you beat it too easily it goes up by 10 levels. It doesn't work like that. If it did, nobody with a max roster would have a problem with it because all you have to do is use the weakest character possible that can still beat it, and if the level increase is the same per victory, then eventually a superior roster will easily crush a weaker one. For example, suppose 2* starts at level 100 and 4* starts at level 200 for enemy, and you both play enough to add 100 levels to the enemy levels. Well, the 2* is facing enemies that are roughly twice as hard, while 4* is facing an enemy that's 50% harder. If they were somehow even prior to the level increase, there's no way the 2* has a chance given the relatively increase is much higher for him.

Unfortunately, scaling is a multiplier, not a linear modifier. It's more like each time you win the enemies gets increased by 10% more levels, and a max roster starts out with enemy unfairly biased against its superior roster and the multiplier ensures this stays the way until the enemies reach level 395. At this point, no further increase to the scaling can possibly make an encounter more difficult for the max roster, but weaker roster will continue to see harder enemies, so this evens out the inital unfairness. However, recent events are nowhere near 395 in terms of scaling not counting nodes with especially high levels (all goons and Magneto + The Hood for being shorthanded).

Arondite

Phantron wrote:

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster. It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up. If you actually use your 2 star roster and end the game with them at like half hp, your scaling is minimally affected. If you boost GoT and XFW and take them out in 2 turns at full hp, obviously the node scales up like a beast.

You seem to think scaling is a linear thing, like if you beat this node it goes up by 5 levels and if you beat it too easily it goes up by 10 levels. It doesn't work like that. If it did, nobody with a max roster would have a problem with it because all you have to do is use the weakest character possible that can still beat it, and if the level increase is the same per victory, then eventually a superior roster will easily crush a weaker one. For example, suppose 2* starts at level 100 and 4* starts at level 200 for enemy, and you both play enough to add 100 levels to the enemy levels. Well, the 2* is facing enemies that are roughly twice as hard, while 4* is facing an enemy that's 50% harder. If they were somehow even prior to the level increase, there's no way the 2* has a chance given the relatively increase is much higher for him.

Unfortunately, scaling is a multiplier, not a linear modifier. It's more like each time you win the enemies gets increased by 10% more levels, and a max roster starts out with enemy unfairly biased against its superior roster and the multiplier ensures this stays the way until the enemies reach level 395. At this point, no further increase to the scaling can possibly make an encounter more difficult for the max roster, but weaker roster will continue to see harder enemies, so this evens out the inital unfairness. However, recent events are nowhere near 395 in terms of scaling not counting nodes with especially high levels (all goons and Magneto + The Hood for being shorthanded).

I can pretty handily confirm that - unless my specific download is broken - this is objectively not true.

I played 2 or 3 pve's with 94's and no maxed 3 stars. I just completed the last Pve with a 166, 160 and a 155 on my roster (but unused) and there was no discernible difference in the scaling. I used my 2 star line up and every node scales just like when I was strictly a 2 star player. Unless you need like 20 maxed 3 stars to hit this invisible wall, it seems like just using a softer roster results in softer scaling.

Phillipes

Arondite wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster. It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up. If you actually use your 2 star roster and end the game with them at like half hp, your scaling is minimally affected. If you boost GoT and XFW and take them out in 2 turns at full hp, obviously the node scales up like a beast.

You seem to think scaling is a linear thing, like if you beat this node it goes up by 5 levels and if you beat it too easily it goes up by 10 levels. It doesn't work like that. If it did, nobody with a max roster would have a problem with it because all you have to do is use the weakest character possible that can still beat it, and if the level increase is the same per victory, then eventually a superior roster will easily crush a weaker one. For example, suppose 2* starts at level 100 and 4* starts at level 200 for enemy, and you both play enough to add 100 levels to the enemy levels. Well, the 2* is facing enemies that are roughly twice as hard, while 4* is facing an enemy that's 50% harder. If they were somehow even prior to the level increase, there's no way the 2* has a chance given the relatively increase is much higher for him.

Unfortunately, scaling is a multiplier, not a linear modifier. It's more like each time you win the enemies gets increased by 10% more levels, and a max roster starts out with enemy unfairly biased against its superior roster and the multiplier ensures this stays the way until the enemies reach level 395. At this point, no further increase to the scaling can possibly make an encounter more difficult for the max roster, but weaker roster will continue to see harder enemies, so this evens out the inital unfairness. However, recent events are nowhere near 395 in terms of scaling not counting nodes with especially high levels (all goons and Magneto + The Hood for being shorthanded).

I can pretty handily confirm that - unless my specific download is broken - this is objectively not true.

I played 2 or 3 pve's with 94's and no maxed 3 stars. I just completed the last Pve with a 166, 160 and a 155 on my roster (but unused) and there was no discernible difference in the scaling. I used my 2 star line up and every node scales just like when I was strictly a 2 star player. Unless you need like 20 maxed 3 stars to hit this invisible wall, it seems like just using a softer roster results in softer scaling.

Agreed to Phantron.

But pls tell me, how can you possibly beat Hood + Magneto node level 330 with 2* ares, or even with (some) 166 3* ??
I would like to play with others, but it is not possible !

And more, if you need to clear all nodes 3 - 4 times (because of sub end), how other option do you have if not to use XF and GT (boosted, to fasten match and prevent health loss? )

Arondite

Phillipes wrote:

Arondite wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster. It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up. If you actually use your 2 star roster and end the game with them at like half hp, your scaling is minimally affected. If you boost GoT and XFW and take them out in 2 turns at full hp, obviously the node scales up like a beast.

You seem to think scaling is a linear thing, like if you beat this node it goes up by 5 levels and if you beat it too easily it goes up by 10 levels. It doesn't work like that. If it did, nobody with a max roster would have a problem with it because all you have to do is use the weakest character possible that can still beat it, and if the level increase is the same per victory, then eventually a superior roster will easily crush a weaker one. For example, suppose 2* starts at level 100 and 4* starts at level 200 for enemy, and you both play enough to add 100 levels to the enemy levels. Well, the 2* is facing enemies that are roughly twice as hard, while 4* is facing an enemy that's 50% harder. If they were somehow even prior to the level increase, there's no way the 2* has a chance given the relatively increase is much higher for him.

Unfortunately, scaling is a multiplier, not a linear modifier. It's more like each time you win the enemies gets increased by 10% more levels, and a max roster starts out with enemy unfairly biased against its superior roster and the multiplier ensures this stays the way until the enemies reach level 395. At this point, no further increase to the scaling can possibly make an encounter more difficult for the max roster, but weaker roster will continue to see harder enemies, so this evens out the inital unfairness. However, recent events are nowhere near 395 in terms of scaling not counting nodes with especially high levels (all goons and Magneto + The Hood for being shorthanded).

I can pretty handily confirm that - unless my specific download is broken - this is objectively not true.

I played 2 or 3 pve's with 94's and no maxed 3 stars. I just completed the last Pve with a 166, 160 and a 155 on my roster (but unused) and there was no discernible difference in the scaling. I used my 2 star line up and every node scales just like when I was strictly a 2 star player. Unless you need like 20 maxed 3 stars to hit this invisible wall, it seems like just using a softer roster results in softer scaling.

Agreed to Phantron.

But pls tell me, how can you possibly beat Hood + Magneto node level 330 with 2* ares, or even with (some) 166 3* ??
I would like to play with others, but it is not possible !

And more, if you need to clear all nodes 3 - 4 times (because of sub end), how other option do you have if not to use XF and GT (boosted, to fasten match and prevent health loss? )

I used 2 Stars, so Hood / Mags were never level 330 lol.

When you get to the end and need to speed clear for the final push of points, the scaling doesn't matter as much since you won't be coming back to the nodes later - on the last push, break out your A team and your boosts and smash em down.

Phillipes

Arondite,

Hood + Magneto was 330 from beginning, I played it 20 minutes after that sub started (those 20 minutes took me to get to that node). Even Hood has 10.000 hitpoints, magneto 15.000.

What I wanted to say that veteran players are outscaled even from beginning of event, transitioning players are not.

What other choise I have than to use XF and GT, boosted?
And pray for good board to stun hood in first turns, or wipe horribly?

(Now you see how I wasted 15.000 Iso to boosts).

Atleast I ended 2nd.
But dont know if starlord was worth it.

Arondite

Phillipes wrote:

Arondite,

Hood + Magneto was 330 from beginning, I played it 20 minutes after that sub started (those 20 minutes took me to get to that node). Even Hood has 10.000 hitpoints, magneto 15.000.

What I wanted to say that veteran players are outscaled even from beginning of event, transitioning players are not.

What other choise I have than to use XF and GT, boosted?
And pray for good board to stun hood in first turns, or wipe horribly?

(Now you see how I wasted 15.000 Iso to boosts).

Atleast I ended 2nd.
But dont know if starlord was worth it.

Uhh. Did you spam Wolverine and Thor in the previous subs? Again, if the nodes scale so wildly off your roster level, there should've been SOME discernible difference for me, that after adding almost 200 levels to my roster and 72 levels to my highest level there should've been some noticeable change in the base level of the nodes.

The first sub had levels mildly higher than previous events have, but as I used the same teams in the previous events beginning from sub one all the way until the end, the event played virtually identically to previous events.

simonsez

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster

Link please?

Arondite wrote:

It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up.

Also would like a link to see where "speed" has anything to do with it.

My experience in this PvE was that I was on the losing end of the "speed" battle. I would spend most of the sub alternating between 1st and 2nd, but in the final grind, the other guy (weaker roster) was able to grind deeper and faster, and end up with about 2k more points each time.

Bowgentle

Oh so all I have to do next time is use my buffed 2* chars against nodes that start out at level 250+ for me?
Brilliant! Why didn't I think of this earlier?

Seriously, Arondite, if us people with maxed 4* chars could, we would totally use other chars.
But try that with our scaling.

It's basically chicken and egg, where it doesn't matter what came first, our scaling won't go down no matter what we try.

simonsez

So looking at the top ranked alliances for this PvE, here are the rosters (top level characters) of their top performers:

We Are Groot: 120, 130, 94, 108, 215
Kick Azz Stars: 110, 94, 165, 131, 94

These guys are to be commended for putting in the hard work required to be the top 2 alliances, but it sure looks like scaling has made low end rosters a prerequisite for high end play.

rubix_qube

simonsez wrote:

So looking at the top ranked alliances for this PvE, here are the rosters (top level characters) of their top performers:

We Are Groot: 120, 130, 94, 108, 215
Kick Azz Stars: 110, 94, 165, 131, 94

These guys are to be commended for putting in the hard work required to be the top 2 alliances, but it sure looks like scaling has made low end rosters a prerequisite for high end play.

The guy who got first in the groot alliance, davyx, was third in his bracket, 15000 pts behind first who has 5 166's and 10 more fully covered 3*''s. Two of the top 10 came from skrull empire, and 8 of the top 10 had very strong rosters. The groot alliance is very pve focused and when that happens they can win events as a group. I think the biggest scores come down to motivation and having the time to achieve your goals.

I wonder sometimes if the high end rosters get so accustomed to easily beating enemy teams in pvp and the early nodes in pve that when they finally grind a pve comp they have to play some challenging nodes and that's not the norm. All of a sudden the scaling is too high because they couldn't just blast away the enemy in a few moves. The 2* rosters may not have to face 395 enemies but they still have to face high level opponents that are just as difficult for them. They are just used to having to face the uphill challenge because of always being at a disadvantage of having a weaker roster. Plus the 2*'s are most likely newer players so their motivation to grind is still high. It's tough to find that will after playing for over a year for a lot of people. Especially when they know there will be 3 hr refreshes and extra competition for the 4* character. There's a dread there that is difficult to overcome.

TaT had some difficult nodes, but nothing impossible to overcome. I thought the toughest part were the 3 hr refreshes (not a fan).

dkffiv

I ended with 211,510 points (270 Fury/Xforce/Thor, 230 Invis Woman 16x 166's) and the guy I was neck and neck with (Williamk99, 210,697 points) had a 270 Xforce and 17 or so 166's. During the first 3 subs, besides the final 2 hour grind down I never needed to use ISO boosts. If the competition wasn't so tight going into the final sub I don't think I would've boosted except on the Mags/Hood node.

Regarding what I've observed of scaling from alliance screen shots the nodes seem to be the average of your best roster x a percent. On the highest level one its usually 50% or a little higher. I see a 2* facing a deadly 150, I end up seeing a 300+.

Joey Jellico

I think D3 needs to just finally come out and and spill the beans on the mystery of scaling (how it works, definitively).

Or do they even know??

Because when you have tons of players afraid to level their characters (the most fun part of rpg's) then something is just not sitting right within the game.

simonsez

rubix_qube wrote:

The guy who got first in the groot alliance, davyx, was third in his bracket, 15000 pts behind first who has 5 166's and 10 more fully covered 3*''s. Two of the top 10 came from skrull empire, and 8 of the top 10 had very strong rosters

Yes, that was my bracket. I was the second place finisher, so I'm very aware of what it took to reach those scores. I literally did not miss a refresh during the entire event. My final grinds were ridiculously long. But I couldn't keep up with Malorick. He's an absolute beast. Even on the last day, when everyone else had taken their foot off the gas, since the ultimate rankings were settled, he kept grinding away.

I wouldn't say he has a weak roster, but without 4s, he was able to grind just a little bit faster than I could. In the course of a 7 day event that might ultimately be decided by a couple thousand points, if there are a couple overbufffed nodes in each sub worth 700-800 points, and one player can grind them 4 times and the other can only grind them 3, that's the decider.

And, when you have a 2* roster, you can probably grind those nodes 5 or 6 times each.

Trisul

I've capped myself at 114, but the last CMags/Hood node hit max level for me. At that point, there's no advantage to keep weaker rosters.

Arondite

simonsez wrote:

Arondite wrote:

D3 has confirmed that just having / leveling 3 and 4 star characters doesn't make the node scale on you any faster

Link please?

Arondite wrote:

It's the fact that when you use those 3 and 4 stars (particularly if you're using boosts, too) you're clearing the node faster, taking less damage, and ending with a higher percentage of your maximum health. These are what makes your scaling go up.

Also would like a link to see where "speed" has anything to do with it.

My experience in this PvE was that I was on the losing end of the "speed" battle. I would spend most of the sub alternating between 1st and 2nd, but in the final grind, the other guy (weaker roster) was able to grind deeper and faster, and end up with about 2k more points each time.

It's one of IceIX's posts from about a year ago. I started to look for it but then I realized he has over 2k total posts and that just feels like an ordeal. It was linked in another thread within the past week, but I can't recall who posted it.

When I say speed, I don't mean the time elapsed in a node, I mean killing the enemy so quickly they can't effectively reduce the health of your team.

simonsez

Arondite wrote:

When I say speed, I mean killing the enemy so quickly

Yes, I understood that's what you meant. And I was making the point that because of scaling and how characters buff, 2* rosters can clear their nodes faster than someone with a 4* roster can.

Arondite

simonsez wrote:

Arondite wrote:

When I say speed, I mean killing the enemy so quickly

Yes, I understood that's what you meant. And I was making the point that because of scaling and how characters buff, 2* rosters can clear their nodes faster than someone with a 4* roster can.

They can't do it while taking a smaller percentage of their health as damage than a 4* roster can, though, which is literally my whole point.

Sure, if you cherry pick PART of what I said away from the rest of the statement (nay, sentence) it looks like a completely different beast, but all that matters is the percentage of damage you took.

Zen808

Arondite wrote:

It's one of IceIX's posts from about a year ago. I started to look for it but then I realized he has over 2k total posts and that just feels like an ordeal. It was linked in another thread within the past week, but I can't recall who posted it.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10735&p=177076#p177076

I actually had the thread bookmarked for the PVP MMR discussion. Completely missed the little tidbit about PVE scaling until you mentioned it.

Malorick

simonsez wrote:

rubix_qube wrote:

Yes, that was my bracket. I was the second place finisher, so I'm very aware of what it took to reach those scores. I literally did not miss a refresh during the entire event. My final grinds were ridiculously long. But I couldn't keep up with Malorick. He's an absolute beast. Even on the last day, when everyone else had taken their foot off the gas, since the ultimate rankings were settled, he kept grinding away.

I wouldn't say he has a weak roster, but without 4s, he was able to grind just a little bit faster than I could. In the course of a 7 day event that might ultimately be decided by a couple thousand points, if there are a couple overbufffed nodes in each sub worth 700-800 points, and one player can grind them 4 times and the other can only grind them 3, that's the decider.

And, when you have a 2* roster, you can probably grind those nodes 5 or 6 times each.

Thanks for the compliment, my alliance refer to me also as "The Beast" or "King of pve" but I am mainly a team player and I continued to grind for my alliance to make us in the top 10. It was possible until top alliance hire some merc. It was a good fight with you, we were switching place constantly and it was not easy for me to face 395 lvl without any 4* like you, I had to play smart and consistent. I notice that you have delay some of your refresh and this is really what make the difference, this is why we were switching place all the time but I was one step ahead nothing to do with my "poor" roster.

Arondite

808SpicyToro wrote:

Arondite wrote:

It's one of IceIX's posts from about a year ago. I started to look for it but then I realized he has over 2k total posts and that just feels like an ordeal. It was linked in another thread within the past week, but I can't recall who posted it.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10735&p=177076#p177076

I actually had the thread bookmarked for the PVP MMR discussion. Completely missed the little tidbit about PVE scaling until you mentioned it.

Thanks. And don't forget this golden nugget.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5451

So the fact is, if you're experiencing nodes that are rapidly scaling too high for your two stars to handle, it's because you broke out the 4 stars too early and have been using them as a crutch rather than a finisher.

Just use 2 stars as long as you absolutely, possibly can and you will see scaling exactly like the guys who actually have two star rosters do.