RIP 2* - 3*. Long live the 2* - 4* Transition.

Unknown

As someone who is struggling through the 2-3* transition and almost about to break through, I have come to realize I will achieve nothing. The problem that has occurred is that the 166 wall that confounds most 2* and transition rosters basically no longer exists. That wall has been replaced with the Xforce/166 wall.

Thus, to progress you no longer need a pair of decent 166s but you need a 166 and a suitably covered Xforce. This identifies the second problem: Xforce covers are only available through packs for 2* players.

I'm not sure what the solution for this aside from flooding the game with 3* covers so that 2* players can progress faster.

But, the status quo is not working. We need a fix.

Unknown

You don't actually need an Xforce to beat an Xforce. A team with 2 sensible 166 3*s can beat anything, although fighting a maxed featured and 2 270s presents more of a risk than it might be worth unless it's for a lot of points and you're willing to use boosts and willing to take a chance on it (none of which is necessary to improve your placings).

The first step in improving your score in PvP isn't actually beating up on lots of 4* teams (or maxed 3* teams for that matter)... it's reaching a point where 2* teams no longer steal your points. That lets you remain unshielded at higher scores and win a small number of matches vs 3* teams with boosts at the end of an event into a 3h shield (or playing up to the events end) which leads to higher placing.

As far as earning 4* covers goes... well that's a mess with progression levels being **** with the new shield CD implementation. So I can't tell you how you can earn 4* covers on progression with 2x3* 166s if you're willing to use HP on shields which is what I WOULD have told you before the shield CD went into force. Considering it was done to soothe the sensibilities of "lower tier" players it's ironic they are the ones it screws hardest by the shield CD implementation.... All the vets people gleefully expected to get there comeuppance are fine because we have our 4* covers already....

simonsez

I can't disagree that when it comes to PvP, you've got the catch-22 that you need 4s to win 4s. However, this isn't the case in PvE; yet when I look at the leaderboard for the current event, 4 of the top 5 don't need the Fury blue. This leads me to believe that to some extent at least, transition difficulty is self-imposed.

Unknown

It did help getting 3 Xforce covers from seasons and 3 more from daily drops. However, most of the rest of mine came from tokens (before the pool became overpolluted). I only got a few from PVP's and PVE's (of course that was before their buffs and no one really cared if they got them).

I'm not sure you're wrong that you really on token and daily drops to get them in the current cover distribution environment. I do know you are wrong about needing a 4* to compete. People see that big 270 number and get intimidated. I would not want to fight 5 270 Xforces in a row, but that seldom happens. Typically that happens to people that see that and give up not realizing that when other people unshield later they'll have more targts to pick from.

Taganov

PvP 4* progression has always been the playground of the 1%. I can't imagine a way to fix that and it seems clear that D3 can't either. You need 4s to win 4s. I find it darkly comedic that the ones carrying their alliances/winning these covers OVER AND OVER are selling them for a couple hundred ISO. In the Doom event after 700 points, all I hit was max 4Thor and XForce teams. There's only so much you can boost, and 4Thor has insane stamina. I came in 11th in my bracket .

PvE, there's still some small amount of hope. I've come in 1st or 2nd a couple times in the year I've been playing. My Invisible Woman is fully covered now . I'm not even kidding.

An idea I've been kicking around in my head for PvE progression was to alter the awards so that when you hit the final award, the award ladder restarts with everything costing +50% more points. A true grinder may even get 2 of the top award, but 3*s are the new 2*s, so I don't think it's that big a deal. Really, the chance at more tokens is the big deal, even with the drop pools as diluted as they are.

It's probably best to just join a T100 alliance and ride someone else to the top. I've been considering this myself, but my B100 alliance is terribly considerate when I have insane projects to manage and can't play.

Unknown

I've been top5'ing pretty regularly with hulk and patch. I'm pretty sure if the featured is one of my other 166s I'll be able to win straight up.

You don't need 4*s. They just make life easier.

Spoit

simonsez wrote:

I can't disagree that when it comes to PvP, you've got the catch-22 that you need 4s to win 4s. However, this isn't the case in PvE; yet when I look at the leaderboard for the current event, 4 of the top 5 don't need the Fury blue. This leads me to believe that to some extent at least, transition difficulty is self-imposed.

I duno what kind of bracket you're in, only 2 of my top 10 actually have any 166s, much less a maxed fury

SnowcaTT

I want to see that kind of bracket - top 10 of mine always have 200+ X-force, usually have at least one 270, and most will have two or more 270's.

Totally agree with OP. I have 25 127's as I've gone with even leveling for PVE (15 of these could go to 166, about 5 'optimally' covered, two of those actually any good. Zero iso currently to do this with). This keeps me out of the range of 2*'s as someone mentioned. Step one, accomplished!

Step 2 I thought was to move to a few 166's. But I hit a solid 166 wall just after 500 points in PVP. Say I get four decent 166's - each match will likely take down one enough to not be able to go forward without a health pack, of which you get five. So I can go 4 + 5 matches: 9 matches, except every time I win one past 600 I assume I'll continue to lose two - the ones I lose now aren't to 166's, they are to 270's.

I don't think the OP idea of flooding with 3*'s will work unless you are flooded with ISO to actually level your characters.

I've already talked myself into just jumping right into 4*, why not? 3*'s won't "shield" you, but a good 4* roster will make 3*'s skip me a bit more, just like a good 3* transition roster makes 2*'s skip me a bit more. I've saved up for two X-force covers, and bumped him to 200+. Next is 4hor covers, and bumping her. May as well save all my ISO and just hit up the 4*'s, why bother getting the 3*'s higher when they won't "win" anything but more 3*'s?

Which makes the game more P2W than ever. The only way to actually get into that 4* transition is have TONS of HP, so you can buy the covers - like folks mention, must have the 4*'s to win the 4*'s. And HP is such a scarcity that you pretty much have to either have already had all the 3*'s to win 4* covers when shielding worked, or you have to now pay to get your 4*'s (many claim they haven't, but so many max 4hors all over makes me wonder).

The P2W is so obvious I'm sure it's intentional - it's the devs letting you know right away the only way to "win" is to get into 4* land by paying it up. I guess at least you have to earn the 4* covers initially since you can't outright buy them right away (or find them since many don't show up on daily rewards for a year). If covers become more available (or purchasable without a first one owned) and HP remains incredibly low, I'll feel vindicated in this assertion.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

You don't actually need an Xforce to beat an Xforce. A team with 2 sensible 166 3*s can beat anything, although fighting a maxed featured and 2 270s presents more of a risk than it might be worth unless it's for a lot of points and you're willing to use boosts and willing to take a chance on it (none of which is necessary to improve your placings).

The first step in improving your score in PvP isn't actually beating up on lots of 4* teams (or maxed 3* teams for that matter)... it's reaching a point where 2* teams no longer steal your points. That lets you remain unshielded at higher scores and win a small number of matches vs 3* teams with boosts at the end of an event into a 3h shield (or playing up to the events end) which leads to higher placing.

As far as earning 4* covers goes... well that's a mess with progression levels being **** with the new shield CD implementation. So I can't tell you how you can earn 4* covers on progression with 2x3* 166s if you're willing to use HP on shields which is what I WOULD have told you before the shield CD went into force. Considering it was done to soothe the sensibilities of "lower tier" players it's ironic they are the ones it screws hardest by the shield CD implementation.... All the vets people gleefully expected to get there comeuppance are fine because we have our 4* covers already....

Hulk + Patch beats 249 featured, 270 4hor and 270 Xforce.

And it's pretty much guaranteed too. It's really nice.

That said, it is not a sustainable approach to climbing. It is only valuable upwards of 700 or 800 when you want to land those last few 40 or 50 point match and you don't mind spending 1 health pack per fight.

SnowcaTT

ark123 wrote:

I've been top5'ing pretty regularly with hulk and patch. I'm pretty sure if the featured is one of my other 166s I'll be able to win straight up.

You don't need 4*s. They just make life easier.

Congrats! You got yourself more 3*'s - but you basically already have the best 3*'s maxed. You also earned 1/25th of a 4* cover in HP (except you spent most of it for a shield). Oh, and 5000 ISO - maybe two or three levels for another 3*. Probably a bit more ISO, since you likely didn't need all three colors of those 3* covers you earned.

Do you take on 270 Thor and 270 Xforce with Hulk/Patch? Regularly, without getting immediate rebuttal attack (and possibly losing more than you won?) [While writing, previous post says it will - but not over and over]

That's the problem I see. Once you have say two of the best (say out of 5) 166's, you can get to a point to earn lots more 3*'s - but not the ISO to level them or the HP to get into 4* land, much less the #1 position to get a 4* cover. I'm sure it can and does happen occasionally, but I'd be willing to bet folks aren't throwing out maxed 3*'s as their D team and winning PVP with any regularity.

Unknown

Patch Loki Hood can beat Xforce/Thor almost everytime with 0 boots and barely any dmg taken, you just need all three to pull it off.

But yes, game is broken.

Unknown

It is about character rebalance. X force and Thorres is too good in every aspect.

Damage / HP pool / utility ( borad control / reduce Counters app )

They are everything but a long last game is not about 1 clear cut end game.

I dont know why team dont use formula to calcuate damage (like damage / AP ratio , adjust with special effect/ team damage adjustment / whatever eles) in characer desgin. It is non sense to have Gamora and Beast > 3* in math but under 2* performance character.

squirrel1120

SnowcaTT wrote:

ark123 wrote:

I've been top5'ing pretty regularly with hulk and patch. I'm pretty sure if the featured is one of my other 166s I'll be able to win straight up.

You don't need 4*s. They just make life easier.

Congrats! You got yourself more 3*'s - but you basically already have the best 3*'s maxed. You also earned 1/25th of a 4* cover in HP (except you spent most of it for a shield). Oh, and 5000 ISO - maybe two or three levels for another 3*. Probably a bit more ISO, since you likely didn't need all three colors of those 3* covers you earned.

Do you take on 270 Thor and 270 Xforce with Hulk/Patch? Regularly, without getting immediate rebuttal attack (and possibly losing more than you won?) [While writing, previous post says it will - but not over and over]

That's the problem I see. Once you have say two of the best (say out of 5) 166's, you can get to a point to earn lots more 3*'s - but not the ISO to level them or the HP to get into 4* land, much less the #1 position to get a 4* cover. I'm sure it can and does happen occasionally, but I'd be willing to bet folks aren't throwing out maxed 3*'s as their D team and winning PVP with any regularity.

Hulk/patch hits over its weight class similar to storm magneto. It can consistently beat max 270 teams. If you gain 30+ pts for the match they didn't seem anymore likely to retal than any other 3* team would, even as easy as XF is at beating hulks, because then you can hit them again for more points.

Done well on decent boards and using the loaner, you can get 2-3 matches out of hulk, and are only spending packs on him. I miss the combo, it was more effective than having 2 166's. Just need another red hulk to roll in someday....

Unknown

squirrel1120 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

ark123 wrote:

I've been top5'ing pretty regularly with hulk and patch. I'm pretty sure if the featured is one of my other 166s I'll be able to win straight up.

You don't need 4*s. They just make life easier.

Congrats! You got yourself more 3*'s - but you basically already have the best 3*'s maxed. You also earned 1/25th of a 4* cover in HP (except you spent most of it for a shield). Oh, and 5000 ISO - maybe two or three levels for another 3*. Probably a bit more ISO, since you likely didn't need all three colors of those 3* covers you earned.

Do you take on 270 Thor and 270 Xforce with Hulk/Patch? Regularly, without getting immediate rebuttal attack (and possibly losing more than you won?) [While writing, previous post says it will - but not over and over]

That's the problem I see. Once you have say two of the best (say out of 5) 166's, you can get to a point to earn lots more 3*'s - but not the ISO to level them or the HP to get into 4* land, much less the #1 position to get a 4* cover. I'm sure it can and does happen occasionally, but I'd be willing to bet folks aren't throwing out maxed 3*'s as their D team and winning PVP with any regularity.

Hulk/patch hits over its weight class similar to storm magneto. It can consistently beat max 270 teams. If you gain 30+ pts for the match they didn't seem anymore likely to retal than any other 3* team would, even as easy as XF is at beating hulks, because then you can hit them again for more points.

Done well on decent boards and using the loaner, you can get 2-3 matches out of hulk, and are only spending packs on him. I miss the combo, it was more effective than having 2 166's. Just need another red hulk to roll in someday....

can someone please explain me, what makes patch and hulk so strong?
i came back a few days ago and dont really get the point

EDIT: ah ok, is this because you just create the strike tiles with patch and then hulk creates anger tiles?
but both do have the same values in dmg, so why do hulk tank?

Unknown

You put hulk in the left hand slot. When match damage is equal it defaults to position. Centre then left then right. So as long as you position them correctly hulk tanks.

As far as why it is so good. Beserk rage means simple matches trigger hulks anger and at 5 covers it does an aoe which benefits from friendly strikes plus you will generate more green for more beserk rage.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

You put hulk in the left hand slot. When match damage is equal it defaults to position. Centre then left then right. So as long as you position them correctly hulk tanks.

As far as why it is so good. Beserk rage means simple matches trigger hulks anger and at 5 covers it does an aoe which benefits from friendly strikes plus you will generate more green for more beserk rage.

you say you put hulk in the left position, but also say it goes from center to left to right.
so shouldnt you put hulk then at the center position?
(thx for that information, didnt know about these position tricks)

Unknown

Center will be the featured hero

simonsez

Spoit wrote:

I duno what kind of bracket you're in, only 2 of my top 10 actually have any 166s, much less a maxed fury

Maybe I'm farther along, so scaling has caught up with guys like that?

Phaserhawk

from my own personal experience it went this way.

Prologue to get Thor and Wolvie

PvE, you get tons of covers

You start to hit a PvE wall, go to PvP, all of a sudden you are making top 100 and getting 3* covers.

You start to hit a PvP wall, go back to PvE and it gets a little easier because of a more diverse roster.

You hit a PvE wall, go back to PvP.

This cycle will repeat until you get about 6-7 fully covered top 15 3*'s. Now you can begin the 4* chase. Before this new shielding you, even before Sentry bombing, you could hit 1300 with Patchneto, and before that Spidey. If you boost and start shield hoping early, you can do some quck hops, shield with Punisher when you hit the 270 wall. yeah that's right, Punisher. Rember with a 3/5/5 Punisher

X-Force = 6576 hitpoints
4hor = 9864 hit points.

When 4hor was the featured PvP and I only had 1 cover and was going up against 270 X-Force, Fury and lvl 1000 4hor, it was Punisher that actually let me do quick hops. I boosted X-Force, and dropped character to that 40% threshold and Executed. So for all you PvP wallers, the Punisher is your only chance, I kid you not, name another character that can down 4hor with one shot at a 8AP for 6576 damage and remmber Punisher's red gets around shields, so if they have Luke Cage as featured, you can get around his shields as long as 4hor's health is 6576 or less. While Punisher isn't the greatest character, I can tell you he does allow quick shield hops, especially if you have X-Force and the featured chracter can tank red for him, the only issue is Punisher tanks black for X-Force and that is the limiting factor of him currently so you will burn Health Packs but you can shield hop

SnowcaTT

Phaserhawk wrote:

When 4hor was the featured PvP and I only had 1 cover and was going up against 270 X-Force, Fury and lvl 1000 4hor, it was Punisher that actually let me do quick hops. I boosted X-Force, and dropped character to that 40% threshold and Executed. So for all you PvP wallers, the Punisher is your only chance, I kid you not, name another character that can down 4hor with one shot at a 8AP for 6576 damage and remmber Punisher's red gets around shields, so if they have Luke Cage as featured, you can get around his shields as long as 4hor's health is 6576 or less. While Punisher isn't the greatest character, I can tell you he does allow quick shield hops, especially if you have X-Force and the featured chracter can tank red for him, the only issue is Punisher tanks black for X-Force and that is the limiting factor of him currently so you will burn Health Packs but you can shield hop

Deadpool is another option, IMO. Two red matches = 65% of health gone, putting characters within range of X-force one-shot.

Several characters can get the match done faster, but then they are terrible D-plays as the AI won't play them as well. GSBW is one like that - whenever someone shoots me with her I say a little thanks when I take the revenge battle.

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

ark123 wrote:

I've been top5'ing pretty regularly with hulk and patch. I'm pretty sure if the featured is one of my other 166s I'll be able to win straight up.

You don't need 4*s. They just make life easier.

Congrats! You got yourself more 3*'s - but you basically already have the best 3*'s maxed. You also earned 1/25th of a 4* cover in HP (except you spent most of it for a shield). Oh, and 5000 ISO - maybe two or three levels for another 3*. Probably a bit more ISO, since you likely didn't need all three colors of those 3* covers you earned.

Do you take on 270 Thor and 270 Xforce with Hulk/Patch? Regularly, without getting immediate rebuttal attack (and possibly losing more than you won?) [While writing, previous post says it will - but not over and over]

That's the problem I see. Once you have say two of the best (say out of 5) 166's, you can get to a point to earn lots more 3*'s - but not the ISO to level them or the HP to get into 4* land, much less the #1 position to get a 4* cover. I'm sure it can and does happen occasionally, but I'd be willing to bet folks aren't throwing out maxed 3*'s as their D team and winning PVP with any regularity.

The iso to level then comes from LRs and top5ing pve regularly.
You can pull xforce and goddess covers from tokens you get from LRs and pve- my xforce is 334 and goddess 323. It's a matter of time to finish them.

And yes, I kill multiple teams of maxed xforce/goddess with patch hulk.