PvP Matchups - Why? Someone Explain

Unknown

Here's what I don't understand about pvp so maybe better minds than mine can explain it to me:

1) I have level 94 to 100 characters. Why when I get to about 400 to 500 points in pvp am I being matched against 166+ level opponents that I have little chance of beating? Why doesn't D3 set a level cap so that no one fights any more or less than some set number of levels, say 20 (or whatever would be reasonable) above or below your current level? At least then I'd have some chance to win. I'm certain it can't be hard to institute an upper or lower cap on who you have to face. What's purpose is served to match me against teams that I cannot beat?

2) Towards the end of a pvp match, I am constantly getting attacked by these same higher level teams, 166+. Yet, I can't find teams 40 level below me to attack like they can. Why is that? Why can they find easy matches at the end but I can't? Shouldn't they be facing at least their equivalents, or higher, like me?

I guess I don't understand the purpose of the current matchmaking algorithm. It just seems set up to help the rich get richer. They can find easy matches at the end of a pvp but I can't, and indeed I get hammered by much higher level teams. Or maybe this is just just try and force me through frustration to spend money on buying cover packs (which I can tell you, ain't going to happen). Right now all it's doing is producing a sense of frustration and unfairness which will eventually lead to me not spending time in the game.

lokiagentofhotness

You might want to try joining late (maybe 22 to 18 hours left in the game) so that all the 166 pointers would have moved past 600 and won't bother with you. It's what I used to do with my exclusively 2* roster - and I would usually end up in the top 50 at around 600-700 points so I could slowly build up a 3* roster. Most 166 players aren't getting 2* rosters by the time they hit the 700 mark, so you want to not be in their line of sight when they're rising or you'll get hammered.

Also don't be afraid of throwing some boosts around - it'll help with low 3* rosters (there are 3* rosters and there are 3* rosters, as far as I can tell.)

Mikaveus

Preaching to the choir, my friend. I have 166 characters, so I get a little higher than you. At the 500-600 mark, you can't sneeze without it landing on an X-Force Wolverine 270. And a lot of Lady Thors starting to appear also. And just like you it's hammer time for the last 30 minutes to an hour. And no matter how many times you skip, you just cycle through the same BAD MATCH-UP options. What does this mean? You and I have ZERO chance at finishing #1 and, for me, a sliver of a dream at breaking Top 5 in PvP.

Frustrating is the perfect way to put it. It's downright disheartening how Puzzle Quest makes these match-ups. I say LIKE faces LIKE. If you've got a 3* character on your team, then you shouldn't be battling 2* teams. Likewise, a 4* character should prevent people from facing 3* teams - I know pickings are slim at the moment between X-Force and 4hor but I hear A LOT of these new 4* characters be coming.... Oh great, it's going to get worse.

DrStrange-616

The wall is incredibly discouraging. I might be able to find one or two semi-viable opponents if I'm willing to spend hundreds and hundreds of ISO on the skip tax. For my trouble? I'm attacked several times and lose more than I could possibly have gained.

I know there are others like me who can't find opponents (like me). Where do we all go in the matchmaking algo at 400 points or so? Why are we invisible to each other?

Unknown

Most of us get nailed down out of range quickly by higher levels, or are shielded and can't be attacked. If you're in 2* land, it has become impossible to rank top 100 while playing the last 3 hours unless shield hopping.

Unknown

Thanks, yes, I do know those points you made. I'm just wondering why the game is set up os that there are such extreme mismatches. It would be very easy so that I am matched only against my "peers", not impossible 166+ teams. I just don't see the logic myself. I'm finding the game more and more frustrating.

Unknown

Mikaveus wrote:

I say LIKE faces LIKE. If you've got a 3* character on your team, then you shouldn't be battling 2* teams. Likewise, a 4* character should prevent people from facing 3* teams -

This. There's no reason on earth why they couldn't implement this, no reason whatsoever. The more I think about it, the more i believe is that the entire purpose is to frustrate us so much that we go out and buy hero packs. But I'm just not going there, especially since all I am doing is buying a chance at a hero. That's even more ridiculous. But that's another topic for another time. Unless they do something to fix this, my remaining time may be short here, as much as I do enjoy the game.

Unknown

DrStrange-616 wrote:

The wall is incredibly discouraging. I might be able to find one or two semi-viable opponents if I'm willing to spend hundreds and hundreds of ISO on the skip tax. For my trouble? I'm attacked several times and lose more than I could possibly have gained.

I know there are others like me who can't find opponents (like me). Where do we all go in the matchmaking algo at 400 points or so? Why are we invisible to each other?

Of course we're out there, they just don't offer those matches. Which means it is intentional on their part. And I think their motives are clear.

Unknown

In this last loki event I got up to #20 last night. Overnight I was dropped to 36th.

i played a couple times today to get up near 25.

I have 5 red dead pool covers already I just wanted to get top 25 to get a pink one.

With 3 hours and change to go I got up to 17th before hitting the wall of 270 covers. My max on my roster is 166 hulk and patch.

i shielded for 3 hours. With 30 minutes to go I was 25th. Everyone around me was shielded. Someone shot up to 22 which knocked me to 26. They got beat back and I was 25 again. They quickly won twice and shielded putting me back at 26.

With 20 minutes to go I came out of shiedling and won twice and shielded again. It said I was 18 but after I put up my shield it updated to 32.

i was attacked 3 times while I was buying the sheild. Nowhere did it show I was attacked. i just dropped from 18 to 36 with no indication.

Now there is 3 minutes left. I jump out and take on a 270 player for 46 points and win. Except I was attacked for a loss of 65, net 19 point loss.

now placing anywhere below 25 didnt matter because I didnt need a red cover.

But ****, is this how its supposed to work because it was costly in so many ways.

It just becomes a bloodbath and there is nothing fun about it.

I think the time I spent doing that I would have rather vaccumed the house or something as banal as that.

Ebolamonkey84

grifman wrote:

Mikaveus wrote:

I say LIKE faces LIKE. If you've got a 3* character on your team, then you shouldn't be battling 2* teams. Likewise, a 4* character should prevent people from facing 3* teams -

This. There's no reason on earth why they couldn't implement this, no reason whatsoever. The more I think about it, the more i believe is that the entire purpose is to frustrate us so much that we go out and buy hero packs. But I'm just not going there, especially since all I am doing is buying a chance at a hero. That's even more ridiculous. But that's another topic for another time. Unless they do something to fix this, my remaining time may be short here, as much as I do enjoy the game.

If LIKE only faces LIKE, then what would be the point of leveling any 3* or 4* characters? Why should a 2* player get 1st place instead of a bunch of vets with 3 and 4* characters that have spent a lot of time and possibly money on this game? We have all gone through that same transition period and you eventually get through it.

What you should be really complaining about is the reward tiers themselves. As more and more people make the 2* to 3* transition, there are less and less spots in the top 100 for these transitioners to fight over. You should be asking d3 to expand the reward tiers so it is easier for 2* rosters to earn at least one 3* cover.

They've made the problem worse by making the 1* to 2* transition so fast as to make that phase basically non-existent. It sets expectations that you should be able to get to 3* land just as quickly.

To the person comparing the 166 wall to running against maxed 4* teams, they are not even close. 3* and 4*s are very close in power compared to 2* and 3*. I just recently got a usable XForce, and I got it by busting through multiple 4Thor/Xforce teams to reach 1300.

Unknown

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

If LIKE only faces LIKE, then what would be the point of leveling any 3* or 4* characters?

Several reasons:

1) For the same reason in RPG's that as you level up, your opponents do too. To maintain the challenge. Where's the challenge in a 166 team beating team of 94's? Why should you be rewarded for something anybody can do?
2) For the fun of collecting additional characters and covers

Why should a 2* player get 1st place instead of a bunch of vets with 3 and 4* characters that have spent a lot of time and possibly money on this game?

Because he's very good at fighting on an level playing field which is really a fair test of ability and should be rewarded for that, rather than punished by being placed in matches that he cannot win. Why should you be rewarded just because you have a bigger wallet? Where's the challenge in buying covers? Why should you be rewarded for that and not your ability to play the game?

We have all gone through that same transition period and you eventually get through it.

Maybe so, but not if I stop having fun, which should really be the point of it all. And it's reaching that point for me right now.

What you should be really complaining about is the reward tiers themselves. As more and more people make the 2* to 3* transition, there are less and less spots in the top 100 for these transitioners to fight over. You should be asking d3 to expand the reward tiers so it is easier for 2* rosters to earn at least one 3* cover.

That I would agree with. That's another solution. Right now in pvp I can't really compete, I hit a wall around 400 to 500 points as I am now in the "God of Lies" pvp. Why should I even try at this point?

Mikaveus

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

grifman wrote:

Mikaveus wrote:

I say LIKE faces LIKE. If you've got a 3* character on your team, then you shouldn't be battling 2* teams. Likewise, a 4* character should prevent people from facing 3* teams -

This. There's no reason on earth why they couldn't implement this, no reason whatsoever. The more I think about it, the more i believe is that the entire purpose is to frustrate us so much that we go out and buy hero packs. But I'm just not going there, especially since all I am doing is buying a chance at a hero. That's even more ridiculous. But that's another topic for another time. Unless they do something to fix this, my remaining time may be short here, as much as I do enjoy the game.

If LIKE only faces LIKE, then what would be the point of leveling any 3* or 4* characters? Why should a 2* player get 1st place instead of a bunch of vets with 3 and 4* characters that have spent a lot of time and possibly money on this game? We have all gone through that same transition period and you eventually get through it.

What you should be really complaining about is the reward tiers themselves. As more and more people make the 2* to 3* transition, there are less and less spots in the top 100 for these transitioners to fight over. You should be asking d3 to expand the reward tiers so it is easier for 2* rosters to earn at least one 3* cover.

They've made the problem worse by making the 1* to 2* transition so fast as to make that phase basically non-existent. It sets expectations that you should be able to get to 3* land just as quickly.

To the person comparing the 166 wall to running against maxed 4* teams, they are not even close. 3* and 4*s are very close in power compared to 2* and 3*. I just recently got a usable XForce, and I got it by busting through multiple 4Thor/Xforce teams to reach 1300.

Really? Outside of shield hopping costing tons of HP and using every last boost, I don't see that happening with most players. And your "usable X-Force" is probably a team I would salivate to see compared to the maxed XF's and 4hor's that make Top 5 so freakin' ridiculous. Heck, Top 10 is a buffet of pain.

3* and 4*s are very close in power? Sorry. The sheer volume of XF and 4hor at the top begs to differ. Devil Dino is moving in on that claim as well. Only one who isn't getting in on that action is Invisible Woman who is close to a 2* in power.

LIKE versus LIKE is fair and less frustrating. Unless you're the type who jollies in lording over a loaded roster over those who aren't there yet. Maybe this is fixed by modifying the reward tiers. I know this is fixed by match-making the teams correctly. If not by * then by sum of levels for the entire team. That way my 166, 166, 130 (462) doesn't have to be demolished by a 270, 270, 130 (670).

Unknown

Outside of X Force who is not balanced by any stretch of imagination there is very little power increase between 3* to 4*. If X Force didn't exist in the game, Thor wouldn't necessarily be the best character to use in non shield hopping situations because her extra HPs usually just means your team has a lower chance of winning on defense but it'd take longer to lose, which only matters for a shield hop. X Force's dominance is no worse than Sentry's dominance and both are product of poorly thought out balance and it just happens right now the guy who holds the most imbalanced character title is a 4* instead of a 3*. Even a pure power build like Thor + Fury + featured can be held in check by just having The Hood. There isn't an effective way to fight X Force without your own, just like there wasn't an effective way to fight Sentry without your own. That's what imbalanced means.

Unknown

They tested a new matchmaking system recently then alot of people complained for an assortment of issues...they will never be able to please everyone or even the majority of people...lose lose situation. I used to hit a wall at 600, now its 500 where i see the maxed xforce/lady thor/daken/hoods. I dont know why i see it sooner now, ive only raised the level of one cover, maybe that was enough. I wish they could setup tiered pvp events like elite, high, medium, low where the rewards are different, like 4 star for elite, 3 for medium etc.

Eddiemon

grifman wrote:

1) I have level 94 to 100 characters. Why when I get to about 400 to 500 points in pvp am I being matched against 166+ level opponents that I have little chance of beating? Why doesn't D3 set a level cap so that no one fights any more or less than some set number of levels, say 20 (or whatever would be reasonable) above or below your current level? At least then I'd have some chance to win. I'm certain it can't be hard to institute an upper or lower cap on who you have to face. What's purpose is served to match me against teams that I cannot beat?

It's a competetion. You beat the worst teams and then you have to beat better and better teams to be the winner. If you are being matched against teams you cannot beat then you ma have advanced as far as you can in the competetion.

You're not so special that you deserve to be #1 even though you cannot beat every or even most opponents. So the matchmaking is designed to match you with harder and harder challenges until you cannot advance and then that rank is a proper reflection of where you are compared to others in your shard.

I'm not sure why this concept baffles so many people. It's player vs player. In order for you to advance ranks people have to drop ranks. And that should only happen if you can or would be able to beat them. You have no right or entitlement to be #1 over players with 166 teams that you don't have a hope of beating.

2) Towards the end of a pvp match, I am constantly getting attacked by these same higher level teams, 166+. Yet, I can't find teams 40 level below me to attack like they can. Why is that? Why can they find easy matches at the end but I can't? Shouldn't they be facing at least their equivalents, or higher, like me?

Because people start playing late, and just like with you the computer startes them off against the worst players and gradually increases their challenge to find their approriate ranking. At some point between unranked and their final rank they have to beat players of your rank. Sometimes that randomly selected player is you.

They are facing their equivalents in that at the time they are fighting you they will be somewhere between 300 and 600 points, at exactly the same rank you are. It's a competetion, points matter, rosters don't.

I guess I don't understand the purpose of the current matchmaking algorithm. It just seems set up to help the rich get richer. They can find easy matches at the end of a pvp but I can't, and indeed I get hammered by much higher level teams. Or maybe this is just just try and force me through frustration to spend money on buying cover packs (which I can tell you, ain't going to happen). Right now all it's doing is producing a sense of frustration and unfairness which will eventually lead to me not spending time in the game.

It is set up so the best win and those who aren't the best don't win. Pretty much like most competetions everywhere.

The matchmaking algorithm doesn't give a rats about your roster. Its aim is to be actually fair, unlike your aim which is to be unfair. Fair is the people who win the most matches getting the best prizes. If you can win then you get the prize. Unfair is where you take the best people and tell them that even though they have the best rosters and have put time into the game, they can only fight each other and get one prize, while people who couldn't possibly beat them get the exact same prize.

Fair is everyone fights everyone and the people who win the most win. Unfair is where people are prevented from winning because you want to cause some subgroup to win on attributes other than their ability to beat everyone.

lokiagentofhotness

Phantron wrote:

Outside of X Force who is not balanced by any stretch of imagination there is very little power increase between 3* to 4*. If X Force didn't exist in the game, Thor wouldn't necessarily be the best character to use in non shield hopping situations because her extra HPs usually just means your team has a lower chance of winning on defense but it'd take longer to lose, which only matters for a shield hop. X Force's dominance is no worse than Sentry's dominance and both are product of poorly thought out balance and it just happens right now the guy who holds the most imbalanced character title is a 4* instead of a 3*. Even a pure power build like Thor + Fury + featured can be held in check by just having The Hood. There isn't an effective way to fight X Force without your own, just like there wasn't an effective way to fight Sentry without your own. That's what imbalanced means.

Is X-Force really impossible to fight without your own X-Force?

Ebolamonkey84

grifman wrote:

Several reasons:

1) For the same reason in RPG's that as you level up, your opponents do too. To maintain the challenge. Where's the challenge in a 166 team beating team of 94's? Why should you be rewarded for something anybody can do?
2) For the fun of collecting additional characters and covers

1) In most RPGs I have played, the opponents get harder as you progress in the game and you need to level up in order to be able to beat them more easily. You are right that there is less challenge in beating a team of 94s with a 166 team. The challenge for us comes after that when we have to face the other maxed 3* and 4* teams after hitting 600 or so, if not earlier. If d3 just wanted to spot everyone with a developed roster 600 points at the beginning of each PVP, we would gladly stop hitting 2* teams, since we would never see them anyway. If my characters regained all of their health after every battle instead of me being limited to 5 health packs, I would also be ok with only seeing teams on the same level as mine.
2) That is why I level up my 3 and 4*s now. In the theoretical world where people only face teams at the same level, I could just stay with my 2*s and get the same additional characters. I miss my OBW/Ares combo.

Because he's very good at fighting on an level playing field which is really a fair test of ability and should be rewarded for that, rather than punished by being placed in matches that he cannot win. Why should you be rewarded just because you have a bigger wallet? Where's the challenge in buying covers? Why should you be rewarded for that and not your ability to play the game?

I have spent a total of $10 in my 268 days playing this game. That was because I had an iTunes gift card and needed more roster slots in the beginning. If I spent more than that on a mobile game my wife would kill me. I have only bought one cover (my fifth XForce black), and that was with a 2500 HP bonus I got for free. I am being rewarded for my ability to play the game by being able to get top 25 in PVP if I choose to with my 3* roster.

Mikaveus wrote:

Really? Outside of shield hopping costing tons of HP and using every last boost, I don't see that happening with most players. And your "usable X-Force" is probably a team I would salivate to see compared to the maxed XF's and 4hor's that make Top 5 so freakin' ridiculous. Heck, Top 10 is a buffet of pain.

3* and 4*s are very close in power? Sorry. The sheer volume of XF and 4hor at the top begs to differ. Devil Dino is moving in on that claim as well. Only one who isn't getting in on that action is Invisible Woman who is close to a 2* in power.

LIKE versus LIKE is fair and less frustrating. Unless you're the type who jollies in lording over a loaded roster over those who aren't there yet. Maybe this is fixed by modifying the reward tiers. I know this is fixed by match-making the teams correctly. If not by * then by sum of levels for the entire team. That way my 166, 166, 130 (462) doesn't have to be demolished by a 270, 270, 130 (670).

The overall HP cost of hopping to 1300 is much less than that of buying covers directly, especially when you factor in HP gained from the tournament you reach 1300 in. I think I typically used 5 three hour shields (375 HP). I would climb to about 600 and maintain that until I was ready to climb. Then I would push as high as I could (825-900) with 5 health packs and shield. Come back every three hours and hit two 40+ point targets until I hit 1300. That would also get me top 25 or top 10 if lucky. Total HP earned from PVP was 250-300 (100 progression, 100 top 50 alliance, 50-100 personal placement). That is only a net loss of 125 HP, which would be made up in the next PVP.

Feel free to attack my 221 XF and 166 Hood anytime you see them. Please wait 10 minutes or so after queuing to give me a chance to shield.

It is easy to make arguments when you take half a quote. What I said is that the power difference between 3 and 4 is much less than the gap between 2 and 3. XF and 4hor are better than all 3*s, but they are still beatable by a three star team. Devil Dino is weak and is merely used as a meat shield to try to slow attackers down while hopping. If the game did not punish you for using a suboptimal team, you may see a larger variety of teams towards the top.

2* rosters already have the advantage in PVE; they do not need an extra advantage in PVP as well. D3 needs to give out more 3* covers to ease the transition, especially if their future goal is to set up a similar progression to 4*s.

Sword user

Eddiemon wrote:

grifman wrote:

This is all well and good, but a free-for-all where the prizes are the ability to advance in the game and only those who already have them, get more, doesn't make for a very fun game. If your high school basketball team had to play NBA all-stars each and every time that they went to a particular tournament, you wouldn't expect them to continue returning, would you? Wouldn't you say that contest would be unfair in design? Didn't the NBA all-stars work hard to be where they were? And don't the high schoolers want to get better, too? Bracketing would make more sense than a free-for-all, the only trouble is, the NBA players should get more prizes, and how do they deliver that? More ISO, HP and covers, maybe. Better covers, 4* or such. Make each bracket valuable in its own right, tiered. Or, they have to extend prizes down, giving iso and a 2* cover for transitioners pushed against the 166 wall is the recipe for people quitting.

TheDobot

Something was different with the pvp Locke. No matter hard I tried everytime I went over 600 I was instantly attacked and dropped out if the top 100. With this last dec interview basically being a big FU to vet players something fishy is going on. I wouldn't be surprised if D3 has auto bot teams that attack people when they hit a certain lvl so the player is forced to shield. Actually I couldn't even shield because of being attacked while tring to get in the top 100

Spoit

lokiagentofhotness wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Outside of X Force who is not balanced by any stretch of imagination there is very little power increase between 3* to 4*. If X Force didn't exist in the game, Thor wouldn't necessarily be the best character to use in non shield hopping situations because her extra HPs usually just means your team has a lower chance of winning on defense but it'd take longer to lose, which only matters for a shield hop. X Force's dominance is no worse than Sentry's dominance and both are product of poorly thought out balance and it just happens right now the guy who holds the most imbalanced character title is a 4* instead of a 3*. Even a pure power build like Thor + Fury + featured can be held in check by just having The Hood. There isn't an effective way to fight X Force without your own, just like there wasn't an effective way to fight Sentry without your own. That's what imbalanced means.

Is X-Force really impossible to fight without your own X-Force?

No, it's just phantron's usual lobbying to get X character nerfed

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

lokiagentofhotness wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Outside of X Force who is not balanced by any stretch of imagination there is very little power increase between 3* to 4*. If X Force didn't exist in the game, Thor wouldn't necessarily be the best character to use in non shield hopping situations because her extra HPs usually just means your team has a lower chance of winning on defense but it'd take longer to lose, which only matters for a shield hop. X Force's dominance is no worse than Sentry's dominance and both are product of poorly thought out balance and it just happens right now the guy who holds the most imbalanced character title is a 4* instead of a 3*. Even a pure power build like Thor + Fury + featured can be held in check by just having The Hood. There isn't an effective way to fight X Force without your own, just like there wasn't an effective way to fight Sentry without your own. That's what imbalanced means.

Is X-Force really impossible to fight without your own X-Force?

No, it's just phantron's usual lobbying to get X character nerfed

I'm sure you were constantly fighting pre nerf Ragnarok without your own, or pre nerf Sentry without your own Sentry? Of course if you can beat Ragnarok without Ragnarok which you had to do at some point in PvE because you can't even use Ragnarok when the AI uses Ragnarok then technically you don't have to have to have X to defeat X but good luck doing that 10 times in a row against a guy who can sometimes infinite on a single red match. For any particular one fight you don't need X Force to beat X Force, but after a certain point you'll just see him show up in at least half of the fights and if you want to have a reasonable shot at beating him and also not immediately stomped on a retaliation it'd be a really good idea to have your own X Force. If you don't have a fully developed roster, X Force can pretty much kill almost everyone in the 6800 or lower HP class in one major move. This isn't a handicap you can reliably overcome when you got to play 10 games in a row against him which happens all the time.