3* to 4* transition for 2015.....death of the game?

darthmental

Now that the devs have stated that they have a lot of 4*s on the way, I just wanted to hear the community's thoughts on the future of the game with this forthcoming transition.

I know for me, if the rate of ISO gain is not increased substantially to coincide with this transition then I'm pretty sure I'll find something else to do with time.

Your thoughts?

wirius

I think its a good thing.

Its like the transition from 2's to 3's. It gives you something to keep working for. Also, I think they realize they'll need to change iso rewards, and restructure cover rewards as well. If anything, this could be part of a massive reward overhaul, and I think the game would benefit from it.

Unknown

darthmental wrote:

Now that the devs have stated that they have a lot of 4*s on the way, I just wanted to hear the community's thoughts on the future of the game with this forthcoming transition.

I know for me, if the rate of ISO gain is not increased substantially to coincide with this transition then I'm pretty sure I'll find something else to do with time.

Your thoughts?

More and More 4* character and we can call it Power inflation.

Currenty 2* - 3* transition is kind of **** . I can forsee 3* to 4* will be the same. 3* 166 team will complaint 4* 270 team dominate PVP.

The dev team only walking on the same path as tons of failure game. Player feel boring > release more power and increase the number > Free play > game death.

Unknown

So we'll require 3 times the iso to level characters, but iso drops, which are already too low for the number of characters in the game, will remain stagnant.

Why must the cart always come before the horse? We have been talking about roster slot costs becoming prohibitive and iso too scarce. Instead of staying these, they are choosing to exacerbate the problems.

*sigh*

Unknown

stephen43084 wrote:

So we'll require 3 times the iso to level characters, but iso drops, which are already too low for the number of characters in the game, will remain stagnant.

Why must the cart always come before the horse? We have been talking about roster slot costs becoming prohibitive and iso too scarce. Instead of staying these, they are choosing to exacerbate the problems.

*sigh*

They want you to feel challenge....there is no new things but only extend the pain of transition.

In the past year , we are transition from 2* to 3* and once lot of us sucess and they inflate the character to 4* and those sucessor would force to transite to 4*.

Unknown

The game will be made up of 270s and 94s. Because by the time you start slogging through that neverending transition only to realize that the 166 goalpost has been moved another six months (or more) down the road, lot of quitting gonna happen. That 270 wall that keeps creeping lower and lower will be a reality at 200 points in PvP. D3 better hurry with getting money from the playerbase, because this is the beginning of the end.

Unknown

It will certainly see me playing less or indeed stopping completely, the relative that got me in to the game literally stopped playing because there are just too many new characters...

Like it has been said else where releasing new characters is pretty much like many MMOs releasing a new expansion pack... " (initial reaction) yay higher level cap and more stuff to do... (then the realization) oh wait... it's pretty much more of the same thing all over again....(the logic follows) soo all that work I put in before was a waste of time because now there is bigger and better stufff.... (the conclusion) erm.... do I want to waste more time getting this new stuff when the next expansion is going to make all the work I put in now useless?!?!"

And companies like Blizzard wonder why their subscription numbers are going down over the years but peak only very slightly with every new expansion... erm... read the above... consumers get smart... Yay you can see the parallels that MPQs have with MMO which follow this type of business model...

The bottom line is your player base will peak at one point and then get smaller and smaller with less players returning over time because of the above "thought process"

There are very few MMO games where the player base continues to grow even long after their release... Eve Online is the primary example, I dunno much about the game other than its sub numbers have continued to grow over the years, not bad for a game which came out before World of Warcraft...

Now moving away from Online games, a few weeks ago a friend expressed a surprise why people were still playing Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, a game that came out three years ago. There's a lot that can be said about the game.... it's got a lot of things to do within that game, not all of them that well implemented, but it is also supported by community based content which keeps it fresh for those who keep going back. There's probably very few players who played Skyrim that can honestly say they done absolutely everything within that game, There's like over 100 unique dungeons in there, doesn't seem that many but the majority of players will not have been in over half of them.

You look at some of the other games people tend to go back to.. they tend to be open world games... or real time competitiveness.... e.g. Star Craft 1, many FPS games

What's all this gotta do with MPQ? Well simply MPQ is very one dimensional as a game, it only does one thing over and over, match a row of tiles. Be it story events or verses events, it falls into a very simple mechanic, match a row of tiles... There has been nothing that really adds to that, and the developers have in my eyes failed to evolve the game like many others... So what if they come out with new stories and new characters... it's still the same mechanic, match a row of tiles!

Given the limitations of the game, the only thing that will probably add some longevity to MPQ is "realtime" verses events where you actually play against another human player not the AI

The only other thing is something that is being attempted in Marvel Heroes (Gaziiilon)... that game again has a very simple mechanic, point and click on an enemy until it dies... yes similar to MPQ they release a new hero every month which really doesn't change the way the game is played. They offer new stories, again same as MPQ, but one thing they have been working on for a while is Achievements... A fair number of players don't like this, but in real terms it offers player's personal goals they can strive for whist still doing something very mundane and repetitive.

So as far as I'm concerned D3 can do as many transitions as they like, but until the actually offer something that is a real new mode of play... it'll fall back into the "thought process" that I mentioned at the start for me and probably many others.... Game developers need to understand when it comes to Online games of any sort... it's an investment of time for the player, anything that devalues that time investment will more often or not eventually alienate that player....

NOTE: Time investment is NOT the same as a Financial investment... just in case anyone is confused

So in the long run... if they decide to make the 4* the new 3* and move onto releasing 5* *characters, you'll see a lot more people quitting and players getting into the game will wonder why vets are leaving the game and eventually they will see the same thing....

Unknown

skydivearcher wrote:

It will certainly see me playing less or indeed stopping completely, the relative that got me in to the game literally stopped playing because there are just too many new characters...

Like it has been said else where releasing new characters is pretty much like many MMOs releasing a new expansion pack... " (initial reaction) yay higher level cap and more stuff to do... (then the realization) oh wait... it's pretty much more of the same thing all over again....(the logic follows) soo all that work I put in before was a waste of time because now there is bigger and better stufff.... (the conclusion) erm.... do I want to waste more time getting this new stuff when the next expansion is going to make all the work I put in now useless?!?!"

And companies like Blizzard wonder why their subscription numbers are going down over the years but peak only very slightly with every new expansion... erm... read the above... consumers get smart... Yay you can see the parallels that MPQs have with MMO which follow this type of business model...

The bottom line is your player base will peak at one point and then get smaller and smaller with less players returning over time because of the above "thought process"

There are very few MMO games where the player base continues to grow even long after their release... Eve Online is the primary example, I dunno much about the game other than its sub numbers have continued to grow over the years, not bad for a game which came out before World of Warcraft...

Now moving away from Online games, a few weeks ago a friend expressed a surprise why people were still playing Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, a game that came out three years ago. There's a lot that can be said about the game.... it's got a lot of things to do within that game, not all of them that well implemented, but it is also supported by community based content which keeps it fresh for those who keep going back. There's probably very few players who played Skyrim that can honestly say they done absolutely everything within that game, There's like over 100 unique dungeons in there, doesn't seem that many but the majority of players will not have been in over half of them.

You look at some of the other games people tend to go back to.. they tend to be open world games... or real time competitiveness.... e.g. Star Craft 1, many FPS games

What's all this gotta do with MPQ? Well simply MPQ is very one dimensional as a game, it only does one thing over and over, match a row of tiles. Be it story events or verses events, it falls into a very simple mechanic, match a row of tiles... There has been nothing that really adds to that, and the developers have in my eyes failed to evolve the game like many others... So what if they come out with new stories and new characters... it's still the same mechanic, match a row of tiles!

Given the limitations of the game, the only thing that will probably add some longevity to MPQ is "realtime" verses events where you actually play against another human player not the AI

The only other thing is something that is being attempted in Marvel Heroes (Gaziiilon)... that game again has a very simple mechanic, point and click on an enemy until it dies... yes similar to MPQ they release a new hero every month which really doesn't change the way the game is played. They offer new stories, again same as MPQ, but one thing they have been working on for a while is Achievements... A fair number of players don't like this, but in real terms it offers player's personal goals they can strive for whist still doing something very mundane and repetitive.

So as far as I'm concerned D3 can do as many transitions as they like, but until the actually offer something that is a real new mode of play... it'll fall back into the "thought process" that I mentioned at the start for me and probably many others.... Game developers need to understand when it comes to Online games of any sort... it's an investment of time for the player, anything that devalues that time investment will more often or not eventually alienate that player....

NOTE: Time investment is NOT the same as a Financial investment... just in case anyone is confused

So in the long run... if they decide to make the 4* the new 3* and move onto releasing 5* *characters, you'll see a lot more people quitting and players getting into the game will wonder why vets are leaving the game and eventually they will see the same thing....

diablo & Wow is the Only game sucess to keep mass of player come back with subscription. I dont remember the other " sucess" and i dont think MPQ can sucess. Do not comply blizzard to demiurge. They are Giants to baby

Polares

This is going to be the death of the game. It is at least for me.

You see, it is not the the same winning a 3* than winning a 4*. It is a lot more difficult winning a 4*, and it is way more expensive if you want to upgrade it with money. So, if the transition from 2*->3* is difficult, 3*->4* it is going to be a really pain in the ****. Something I don't want to endure myself. I sitll like the game, but or I go casual or I stop playing. I am still wondering what to do, but I know for sure that if in 2015 we have the same rate of new 3* and 4* we had this end of the year I will stop playing.

Unknown

benben77 wrote:

diablo & Wow is the Only game sucess to keep mass of player come back with subscription. I dont remember the other " sucess" and i dont think MPQ can sucess. Do not comply blizzard to demiurge. They are Giants to baby

You're missing the point, my post was not about Blizzard vs Dermiurge, it's likening the 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 star transition to expansion packs in MMOs which only really increase the lvl cap of your characters and not really providing anything new, but essentially the same grind people were doing before but with bigger numbers...

My point about people wisening up to this marketing strategy by games companies using "expansion packs" without changing the nature of the game play is an overall decline over the last couple of years... Given the worlds population is still generally increasing... that is not good news for online games because the relative decline is thus bigger.

You'll find a lot of sites and organisations which do research on this...

e.g.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/u ... es-market/

However take all data with a pinch of salt, as very few companies release actual subscription numbers to the general domain.

Unknown

It's interesting, in a way. In my mind two things happen:

1. New players start the game, give it a few weeks and then go "sod this, it will take me ages to get to 3*, let alone 4* and there are tons of characters so the covers are diluted. I'm out."
2. The vets go "sod this, finally got my 3* rolling and now there are loads of 4*? I'm out."

Which basically leaves a small bunch of people and the game dies.

That being said, surely the devs have run the numbers on this, and it is working for them. So they believe this will increase player numbers. I have no idea how, but it will. Otherwise they wouldn't do this, as it is basically killing the game, right? I mean, remember the excitement when Fury came out? They have essentially killed that. Now a 4* comes out and everyone goes "not another bloody one". BUT, it was still carnage with the end of the events giving out Thoress tokens so who knows.

Spoit

hermanbloom wrote:

It's interesting, in a way. In my mind two things happen:

1. New players start the game, give it a few weeks and then go "sod this, it will take me ages to get to 3*, let alone 4* and there are tons of characters so the covers are diluted. I'm out."
2. The vets go "sod this, finally got my 3* rolling and now there are loads of 4*? I'm out."

Which basically leaves a small bunch of people and the game dies.

That being said, surely the devs have run the numbers on this, and it is working for them. So they believe this will increase player numbers. I have no idea how, but it will. Otherwise they wouldn't do this, as it is basically killing the game, right? I mean, remember the excitement when Fury came out? They have essentially killed that. Now a 4* comes out and everyone goes "not another bloody one". BUT, it was still carnage with the end of the events giving out Thoress tokens so who knows.

If you read the Q&A, most of the players are only a couple months in, which is a "renewable" resource, one which will the 4* progressions will largely be irrelevant for.

But yeah, this plan to drastically increase the amount of ISO we have to spend while having no plans to increase the ISO income? Kinda silly, especially when their purported reasoning is that it'd speed up the 2->3* transition too much. They're not using 4*s to begin with! Just increase the ISO outflow by making the progression rewards they don't reach larger

Unknown

Yeah the Q & A was what I meant. They say a lot have players have started since September. I would assume that they would all, after a few weeks, go "there is too much to try and chase here." But that appears not to be the case. Yet.

Unknown

hermanbloom wrote:

Yeah the Q & A was what I meant. They say a lot have players have started since September. I would assume that they would all, after a few weeks, go "there is too much to try and chase here." But that appears not to be the case. Yet.

I agree. I m current in a related new 20 alliance, but i only get 120 iso rewards daily... no one quit but just dont play

Unknown

skydivearcher wrote:

benben77 wrote:

diablo & Wow is the Only game sucess to keep mass of player come back with subscription. I dont remember the other " sucess" and i dont think MPQ can sucess. Do not comply blizzard to demiurge. They are Giants to baby

You're missing the point, my post was not about Blizzard vs Dermiurge, it's likening the 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 star transition to expansion packs in MMOs which only really increase the lvl cap of your characters and not really providing anything new, but essentially the same grind people were doing before but with bigger numbers...

My point about people wisening up to this marketing strategy by games companies using "expansion packs" without changing the nature of the game play is an overall decline over the last couple of years... Given the worlds population is still generally increasing... that is not good news for online games because the relative decline is thus bigger.

You'll find a lot of sites and organisations which do research on this...

e.g.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/u ... es-market/

However take all data with a pinch of salt, as very few companies release actual subscription numbers to the general domain.

oh sorry brother i m actually blizzard's friend i think 4* character is not even an expansion. Just some patch change

Unknown

benben77 wrote:

oh sorry brother i m actually blizzard's friend i think 4* character is not even an expansion. Just some patch change

You're right that the new characters aren't really an expansion... just the concept behind the old school MMO expansions and the transitions to higher tier stars are very similar. Gotta kinda look it as a whole thing over the year rather than individual characters that come out every few weeks.. yeah I know I can be hard to understand at the times... it helps if I'm a little more thorough with my explanations..

but hopefully you understand what I am getting at now..

But in summary the survival of MPQ depends very heavily on demiurge releasing new modes of play and not just stories and characters, cause that will get old, if it hasn't already for a lot of players (the very existence of this tread is an indirect symptom of such). But that's easier said than done..

I would want to see a real time verses where you actually play against another human opponent, but I can see huge server/connection problems relating to that, but for me that is what would keep the game fresh for me

Unknown

wirius wrote:

I think its a good thing.

Its like the transition from 2's to 3's. It gives you something to keep working for. Also, I think they realize they'll need to change iso rewards, and restructure cover rewards as well. If anything, this could be part of a massive reward overhaul, and I think the game would benefit from it.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. They will either make iso easier to get or they will make lvling 4*s cheaper. I also think they will make it easier to gain 3* covers, both through progression awards and through token drops. Let's try and not be negative about this in advance, before we see what the devs are actually changing?

Unknown

I think the issue is the "a lot more" quote from the devs.

I would be amazed if they make it easier to get 3* tokens, but as you say, we don't know what the "plan" is.

Unknown

Normally i'm all for beating up on D3 but I think people are probably slightly over-stating how hard it is to "transition" to 4*.

Firstly 2x166 heroes + featured can beat 2x270 heroes + featured. People do it all the time in fact. So unless there is power creep above the current 4* heroes OR they start regularly featuring 4* heroes in PvP people with maxed 3* heroes will be able to compete. The difference between 3* and 4* is TOTALLY different and a lot less than 2* to 3*.

Secondly.... 4* heroes are perfectly usable from about lvl 200, possibly a little lower. They don't scale with levels in the same way as 1* - 3* heroes. They are much more focussed on covers than levels for ability damage.

for example..... my Xforce is fully covered and lvl 220. His green does 3283 damage + tiles destroyed. A lvl 270 Xforce does 3441 damage + tiles. So those 50 levels are worth a MASSIVE 158 extra damage 8). The main impact of leveling is health and, while useful on defence, it's a non-factor on offence.

This means the ISO requirement to get working 4* heroes isnt as much as you'd first think.

SO IMO, covers are the limiting factor for getting 4* heroes going and IMO getting a 4* well enough covered if you have maxed 3* heroes is easier than getting 3* heroes cover maxed from their. much more diluted poll with a maxed 2* roster.

Final point..... assuming 4* heroes aren't featured a person with 2 lvl 270 4* heroes is just as effective as someone with 20 lvl 270 4* heroes. Simply releasing extra 4* heroes doesn't beef them up any more and is probably only a big deal if it starts diluting the 4* pool in a similar manner to what's happened to the 3* pool.

lukewin

I think the devs think that an influx of 4* will keep the vets interested in the game, and give them something to look forward to / keep playing for, while also doing the same for all the transitioners / noobs. The problem with that is, the impending shield nerf, will probably drive a lot of the vets away. If the vets are unable to get the final progression rewards by shield hopping, at its current price, I don't see them grinding more PVEs to obtain new 4*s (addressed later in post). As it is, they likely have a very serviceable X-force and Thor. I don't see the vets being enticed to try for an additional 4*. They likely have a full roster of maxed 3* they don't use as often, and will likely not want to do the same to a 4* roster, whose roster slots will be a lot more expensive. The shield nerf is probably the final straw for the vets that are quitting, as it is the latest change that punishes them and the way they play (unfair scaling - 395 foes, ISO shortage, roster slot costs, etc), and reinforces that the devs really don't care about their opinions or their sunken investments of time and money into the game. The Dec Q&A has shown that since 56% of the current players have played less than 4 months, the devs are trying to balance the game for new players and vets, although most changes are heavily in favor of new players.

I think the devs will be disappointed with the player participation in the current PVE, as their projections probably were based on the PVE that rewarded another 4*, Thor. Thor saw the benefit of people wanting her due to being able to try out a maxed version during the LRs of anniversary week, the fact that she was worth the effort to those that grinded for her (compared to the assumptions that Elektra is meh as a 4*), she was rewarded during a new PVE storyline, it was the first PVE a lot of vets grinded for, it was a 4.5 day PVE, and a lot of US players had the free time around Thanksgiving to grind. This current PVE has the bugginess that has resulted in a lack of scaling for some, but not all. If this happened when they had Thor as a prize, I'm pretty sure the forum would've gone nuts. I think the vets would rather stick to PVP for getting covers, but the shield nerf might change their ability to do so. This is also a 7.5 day PVE, so grinding this event for a 4* cover is definitely not worth it to a lot of people, vets, transitioners, and noobs alike. This PVE has the problems that time slices have created, brackets that are open for days, meaning late joiners have no chance at catching up, the previously mentioned scaling bug, a newly buffed 3* Essential that a lot of people (myself included) had dumped off their rosters, and people being burned out from grinding the Thor PVE swearing off grinding any more PVEs.

I do think that 2015 will be an exciting year for MPQ and Demiurge, but it might also be the final year. I am currently in the 2* - 3* transition, and do not look forward to the 3* - 4* transition, if I ever finish the current transition, which is made worse by things like vaulting the characters that I need to progress the transition. I am pretty sure I am also being trolled by the RNG. There are 90 3*/4* covers I can use, and 9 that I can not. When I have had the luxury of pulling a Gold, it has usually been one of the 9 that I can not use.

Unknown

lukewin wrote:

I think the devs will be disappointed with the player participation in the current PVE, as their projections probably were based on the PVE that rewarded another 4*, Thor.

I have no figures whatsoever, but my event shard has been crazy competitive all week. As mad as for 4* Thor for sure. I don't think that many fewer people are playing. If anything, due to the scaling bug making it easy for a bunch of people, I would think some people who would have normally given up by now, are carrying on.