Game Theory playing out

Eddiemon

I know it is wrong of me, but I find a lot of threads here about the current PvE incredibly amusing. It's my misspent education coming through.

Basically nobody can sleep, because nobody else is sleeping. If we all agreed to behave like civilised humans and put the game down for 8 hours, we'd all be where we are now, except having slept enough to be able to tell the wife from the dog. (Hint: If you're unsure after 4 nights sleep and everything in front of your eyes is a blur, the dog is a much better kisser...)

But we can't, because we all know that everyone else is an untrustworthy wretch who must have the Thor (my precioussss) and so we must all suffer through our own actions.

For those who don't know of the paradox, it's called the prisoner's dilemma - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Sure, there is always going to be the end hours where somewhere in the world someone will lose sleep. But beyond that it's you fine people who are forcing me to not sleep. Because I am forcing you to not sleep. D3 just set up the game, we're the ones refusing to co-operate.

Unknown

You just made my day.

Thank you for making me laugh in this Doom day.

Unknown

The Prisoner's dilemma supposes there's a HIGHER reward for collaborating, while here the best strategy to the the highest award actually is to outperform, and the prisoner's dilemma rests on the fact that you (individually) are always better off betraying EVEN IF your partner IS trustworthy

The olympics would be a lot easier on the gymnasts (and save them a fortune on training) if they all collaborated to only do simple routines, too

What you're describing isn't the prisoner's dilemma, it's just... competition

Unknown

Actually being untrustworty (in this case not sleeping) is the optimal strategy for the Prisoner's dilemma. I removed myself from this event knowing that there would be no way I could stay up for 108+ hours.

I promise I will visit you all in jail.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

The Prisoner's dilemma supposes there's a HIGHER reward for collaborating, while here the best strategy to the the highest award actually is to outperform, and the prisoner's dilemma rests on the fact that you (individually) are always better off EVEN IF your partner IS trustworthy

You could say sleep is the higher reward, but since the price of this event is Lady Thor this is just crazy talk

Zen808

Dilemmas? Speak fer yerselves. Ever since I resigned myself to Captain Consolation Prize, I have been sleeping like a baby.

That is to say, I'd wake up every couple of hours, crying.

Rat fink tinykitties.

Unknown

Just grind down the nodes until you have 8 hours and sleep those 8 hours.

In the vast majority of time missing a couple max point cycles will just drop you a position or two. Maybe you get three covers instead of four. I fail to see how this is some sort of tragedy.

Unknown

Farther down the Wiki Article under Multiplayer Delemias is more like what we have. Tragedy of the commons, in this case, sleep. Thought process goes "others will probably sleep, if I don't sleep I have a better chance to win" then when everyone doesn't sleep we all become MPQ Zombies and our chances to win don't improve all that much.

I will say, my decision to not sleep for 4 days (or actually sleep in 1 hour incriments) has nothing to do with your decision tho.

Eddiemon

gamar wrote:

The Prisoner's dilemma supposes there's a HIGHER reward for collaborating, while here the best strategy to the the highest award actually is to outperform, and the prisoner's dilemma rests on the fact that you (individually) are always better off betraying EVEN IF your partner IS trustworthy

If none of us sleep then you will end up in position X and I will end up in position Y.
If we all sleep 8 hours then you will end up in position X and I will end up in position Y. Nobody gets any extra points while we are all asleep. But we have all had 8 hours sleep which is the reward for collaborating.
If I sleep and you don't then you end up in position X++ and I end up in position Y--.
If you sleep and I don't then you end up in position X-- and I end up in position Y++.

That's the quintessential prisoners dilemma outcome matrix. Big rewards for betraying a trustworthy partner. Worst case for everyone if we all betray. Best outcome for everyone is to all co-operate.

You see the rewards as just the covers. Sleep is its own reward, and I can't recommend it enough. And having sleep without losing my event position - priceless.

Unknown

And all this time, I thought the prisoners dilemma was "what do I do if I drop the soap?"

Unknown

If everyone collaborates you'd still end up with the same placement but you also get your sleep, so it's good for everyone.

In a single instance of Prisonner's Dilemma it is almost always best to backstab everyone which is exactly what happened. In repeated Prisonner's Dilemma the best strategy is to cooperate and let everyone you'll backstab everyone for the next 3 months if anyone backstabs you, which will reduce the amount of backstabbing.

Unknown

Paintsville wrote:

And all this time, I thought the prisoners dilemma was "what do I do if I drop the soap?"

Get some lube on the wonderful "End of the Year Sale".

IamTheDanger

Wise man says......

"Trust no one, and be suspicious of yourself".

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

gamar wrote:

The Prisoner's dilemma supposes there's a HIGHER reward for collaborating, while here the best strategy to the the highest award actually is to outperform, and the prisoner's dilemma rests on the fact that you (individually) are always better off betraying EVEN IF your partner IS trustworthy

If none of us sleep then you will end up in position X and I will end up in position Y.
If we all sleep 8 hours then you will end up in position X and I will end up in position Y. Nobody gets any extra points while we are all asleep. But we have all had 8 hours sleep which is the reward for collaborating.
If I sleep and you don't then you end up in position X++ and I end up in position Y--.
If you sleep and I don't then you end up in position X-- and I end up in position Y++.

That's the quintessential prisoners dilemma outcome matrix. Big rewards for betraying a trustworthy partner. Worst case for everyone if we all betray. Best outcome for everyone is to all co-operate.

You see the rewards as just the covers. Sleep is its own reward, and I can't recommend it enough. And having sleep without losing my event position - priceless.

No, because if I betray you, my reward is "position X++" and if we all cooperate, it's lower - only "position X and sleep." (We can assume the "++" in position is more valuable to me than sleep since otherwise I would have no reason to betray.) So, since "we all cooperate" doesn't give me my best-case outcome, it's not a prisoners dilemma matrix.

Unknown

"we all cooperate" doesn't give you the best possible outcome in a prisoner's dilemma matrix, "you all cooperate and I betray you" does. Which is where no sleep comes in. Assuming everyone else does sleep (slash doesn't rat) it's in your own personal best interest to not sleep (slash rat out your buddy). You get X++(no jail) and your buddy gets Y--(3 years). The scenario fits.

Except it's far more complicated than that because there are 1000 prisoners. You can assume the top 10 of the leaderboard are probably all non sleepers. Thus all at X++ in relation to the other 990 players, but at stable scores against each other. Vs these other non sleepers, if everyone slept everyone could score in the same relative slots, but the one person who is betraying is going to get the top 1 slot, extra cover, and be an MPQ zombie.

Unknown

I actually slept through my 10 AM Daken PVP ending time today, despite intending to wake up at 6-7 AM to rank. Let me tell you, that extra 5 hours of sleep in exchange for dropping to T200, totally worth it.

Unknown

If everyone cooperates and play the same as they normally do they'd still end up at the placement they'd have otherwise gotten if all refused to cooperate.

The number of players doesn't make inherently make it harder to cooperate. The problem is that you'd need the ability send a PvE goon squad on the bracket of anyone who tried to betray you and there's just no possible way for this to be enforced.

Unknown

Or you could just all be adults and make the choice to either be the best at a game, or win in real life. If you can't keep sight of priorities, you should put down video games. I coulldnt care less about lady thor! I'll keep building roster as time goes, enjoying the comfort of a nice home etc etc.

ClydeFrog76

Switchman wrote:

Or you could just all be adults and make the choice to either be the best at a game, or win in real life. If you can't keep sight of priorities, you should put down video games. I coulldnt care less about lady thor! I'll keep building roster as time goes, enjoying the comfort of a nice home etc etc.

Seriously, what's one Red cover gonna do for me? Jack Poop, that's what.

I might make top 150 for another Cap Marvel Red, but if not...meh.

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief

I've gained quite a few hours of sleep this PvE. I just don't personally see the point of me grinding nodes like that when I know I can hit the 1300 rewards with far less HP spent than going through PvE. Thor will be covered eventually, but I'm not going to kill myself doing so.