How to re-fix True Healing

atomzed

Phantron wrote:

You don't need a trial to see that healing as 'shield' would work. Imagine this thought experiment. You're doing PvP against Spiderman, and then the computer activated a hack and obtained 24 yellow AP before the match even started. A new, improved version of Web Bandages absorbs 6000 HP on every character, so they use it twice immediately for 12K HP on everyone. Are you going to say 'this is an outrage, I rather take 2 Rage of the Panther for 7400 damage on my team for 24 black AP because I'll at least have 10 AP to work with my mostly dead team?" No, because if the AI did 2 Rage of the Panthers you're almost certain to lose the game no matter who you run. Certainly The Hood or anyone in the 6800 HP class is simply gone. Even the strongest character like Sentry or X Force would be down to 3K HP. Sure, ROTP is a powerful ability, but the comparison should show that even a vastly more powerful version of fake healing is still not nearly as good as existing damaging attacks. This isn't a RPG where healing are designed to be more cost efficient than damaging attacks. In fact, most heals are quite cost inefficient for the same AP spent compared to damaging attacks, but even if they are not, it'd take more than heal 6000 on 12 AP to make it more attractive than simply using it offensively and heals are nowhere near that.

Of course whatever change, including the new "healing shield" will "work as intended", the question is whether it will cause unintended consequences. That's what the trial should do. It could also allow the players to give feedback about such a change.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Of course whatever change, including the new "healing shield" will "work as intended", the question is whether it will cause unintended consequences. That's what the trial should do. It could also allow the players to give feedback about such a change.

If you mean like say the concept is bugged so instead of producing a 3K shield it's producing a 30K shield sure that's always possible, but otherwise I don't see anything that could possibly make it overpowered within the current game's context. Yes OBW will probably be even better than she already is in the 2* land but she's always been the best 2* by a significant margin and that never seemed to bother anyone.

wymtime

I will say this durring Balance of Power I use Hood, OBW, Juggs and it is awsome. Juggs headbutts someone and then OBW heals him. If he drops in health I heal him then headbutt again. This let me play a lot of matches before using a health pack and I got a lot od defensive wins. Durring the PVP with spiderman I used Spidey's heal on occasion. I got some purple matches to delay damage and then healed my team while generating enough AP in other colors to win the match. Mind you this was early in my climb but it still saved me from using health packs. Healers have a place in the game you just have to use them properly. Are they as fast and strong as damage dealers no. Do they last as long as true healers no. Can they give you a burst of health to survive a incoming attack and turn things around yes.
I would also say this how many times have you been annoyed on PVE noeds with that 2 turn yellow heal tile comes out and you cannot match it. Heals streatch out the game, this might make it for longer matches which means it is different than the speed game players have made the game into.

If someone found a way to play Spiderbagman and Dare devil together to climb in PVP I think the player group can make healers work as well.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

You don't need a trial to see that healing as 'shield' would work. Imagine this thought experiment. You're doing PvP against Spiderman, and then the computer activated a hack and obtained 24 yellow AP before the match even started. A new, improved version of Web Bandages absorbs 6000 HP on every character, so they use it twice immediately for 12K HP on everyone. Are you going to say 'this is an outrage, I rather take 2 Rage of the Panther for 7400 damage on my team for 24 black AP because I'll at least have 10 AP to work with my mostly dead team?" No, because if the AI did 2 Rage of the Panthers you're almost certain to lose the game no matter who you run. Certainly The Hood or anyone in the 6800 HP class is simply gone. Even the strongest character like Sentry or X Force would be down to 3K HP. Sure, ROTP is a powerful ability, but the comparison should show that even a vastly more powerful version of fake healing is still not nearly as good as existing damaging attacks. This isn't a RPG where healing are designed to be more cost efficient than damaging attacks. In fact, most heals are quite cost inefficient for the same AP spent compared to damaging attacks, but even if they are not, it'd take more than heal 6000 on 12 AP to make it more attractive than simply using it offensively and heals are nowhere near that.

Most players would definitely take the 2 rage of the panther, because the point of MPQ isn't to win individual battles, it's to get points over time. After dying to BP I can then go on to win two or three more battles in the time it would take to finish (win or lose) ONE tedious, unfun battle against Superspidey. Most players probably don't know to retreat and would be psychologically averse to retreating from a battle they aren't "losing" even if they did know how.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

You don't need a trial to see that healing as 'shield' would work. Imagine this thought experiment. You're doing PvP against Spiderman, and then the computer activated a hack and obtained 24 yellow AP before the match even started. A new, improved version of Web Bandages absorbs 6000 HP on every character, so they use it twice immediately for 12K HP on everyone. Are you going to say 'this is an outrage, I rather take 2 Rage of the Panther for 7400 damage on my team for 24 black AP because I'll at least have 10 AP to work with my mostly dead team?" No, because if the AI did 2 Rage of the Panthers you're almost certain to lose the game no matter who you run. Certainly The Hood or anyone in the 6800 HP class is simply gone. Even the strongest character like Sentry or X Force would be down to 3K HP. Sure, ROTP is a powerful ability, but the comparison should show that even a vastly more powerful version of fake healing is still not nearly as good as existing damaging attacks. This isn't a RPG where healing are designed to be more cost efficient than damaging attacks. In fact, most heals are quite cost inefficient for the same AP spent compared to damaging attacks, but even if they are not, it'd take more than heal 6000 on 12 AP to make it more attractive than simply using it offensively and heals are nowhere near that.

Most players would definitely take the 2 rage of the panther, because the point of MPQ isn't to win individual battles, it's to get points over time. After dying to BP I can then go on to win two or three more battles in the time it would take to finish (win or lose) ONE tedious, unfun battle against Superspidey. Most players probably don't know to retreat and would be psychologically averse to retreating from a battle they aren't "losing" even if they did know how.

That's more of a psychological thing. It certainly can be better to take 2 Rage of the Panther and then lose quickly during a shield hop as opposed to taking a very long battle that you end up getting hit multiple times, but that'd mean you incorrectly gauged how long it'd take to overcome an extra 12K HP since you could always just hit surrender instead. I can see players not being aware of surrender as an option, but I use it quite a bit when it's clear there's no way you're going to win since you can still save a little bit of health by retreating versus a complete wipeout, so the same also applies if the opponent has a defensive game over. For example if IW was able to lock 16 tiles on the board, you probably should retreat too because it's going to take forever to match anything useful when the board is as tightly constrained as that, but it doesn't mean 2 Force Bubbles is somehow better than an equivalent amount of AP in other colors that can flat out kill your whole team.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

You don't need a trial to see that healing as 'shield' would work. Imagine this thought experiment. You're doing PvP against Spiderman, and then the computer activated a hack and obtained 24 yellow AP before the match even started. A new, improved version of Web Bandages absorbs 6000 HP on every character, so they use it twice immediately for 12K HP on everyone. Are you going to say 'this is an outrage, I rather take 2 Rage of the Panther for 7400 damage on my team for 24 black AP because I'll at least have 10 AP to work with my mostly dead team?" No, because if the AI did 2 Rage of the Panthers you're almost certain to lose the game no matter who you run. Certainly The Hood or anyone in the 6800 HP class is simply gone. Even the strongest character like Sentry or X Force would be down to 3K HP. Sure, ROTP is a powerful ability, but the comparison should show that even a vastly more powerful version of fake healing is still not nearly as good as existing damaging attacks. This isn't a RPG where healing are designed to be more cost efficient than damaging attacks. In fact, most heals are quite cost inefficient for the same AP spent compared to damaging attacks, but even if they are not, it'd take more than heal 6000 on 12 AP to make it more attractive than simply using it offensively and heals are nowhere near that.

Most players would definitely take the 2 rage of the panther, because the point of MPQ isn't to win individual battles, it's to get points over time. After dying to BP I can then go on to win two or three more battles in the time it would take to finish (win or lose) ONE tedious, unfun battle against Superspidey. Most players probably don't know to retreat and would be psychologically averse to retreating from a battle they aren't "losing" even if they did know how.

That's more of a psychological thing. It certainly can be better to take 2 Rage of the Panther and then lose quickly during a shield hop as opposed to taking a very long battle that you end up getting hit multiple times, but that'd mean you incorrectly gauged how long it'd take to overcome an extra 12K HP since you could always just hit surrender instead. I can see players not being aware of surrender as an option, but I use it quite a bit when it's clear there's no way you're going to win since you can still save a little bit of health by retreating versus a complete wipeout, so the same also applies if the opponent has a defensive game over. For example if IW was able to lock 16 tiles on the board, you probably should retreat too because it's going to take forever to match anything useful when the board is as tightly constrained as that, but it doesn't mean 2 Force Bubbles is somehow better than an equivalent amount of AP in other colors that can flat out kill your whole team.

But think about how many people complain about scaled bullseye even though he's one of the least dangerous dark avengers even when scaled. Yes, it's a psychological thing - people would rather face a hard or risky battle than a tedious, unfun one. But just because it's psychological doesn't mean it's not important

TheViceroy

True healing has always been such a terrible PC sounding term.

My solution:
Allow team AOE Healing to work as it did before, with one simple distinction:
"A character healed with an AOE Heal can't end a battle with more health than they started it with."

This would not affect self-healers.
This would not resurrect Prologue healing (which still works for self-healers right now anyway, albeit on a limited scale).
This would allow characters with an AOE Heal power to have that power be useful again.
Hell, you might actually see more She-Hulk and Beast if their healing was True Healing. Up until whatever Hit Points they started the match with of course.

This is much more consistent and easily understandable.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

atomzed wrote:

Of course whatever change, including the new "healing shield" will "work as intended", the question is whether it will cause unintended consequences. That's what the trial should do. It could also allow the players to give feedback about such a change.

If you mean like say the concept is bugged so instead of producing a 3K shield it's producing a 30K shield sure that's always possible, but otherwise I don't see anything that could possibly make it overpowered within the current game's context. Yes OBW will probably be even better than she already is in the 2* land but she's always been the best 2* by a significant margin and that never seemed to bother anyone.

Lieutenants

Unknown

gamar wrote:

But think about how many people complain about scaled bullseye even though he's one of the least dangerous dark avengers even when scaled. Yes, it's a psychological thing - people would rather face a hard or risky battle than a tedious, unfun one. But just because it's psychological doesn't mean it's not important

So what's wrong with some mind games? I see some Devil Dino in the high end even though he certainly isn't winning anything on the defense, so why shouldn't a healer be viable if it can play mind games against opponents? After all, there's still no circumstance where you'd be worse off fighting an impossible to win battle as long as you know the surrender option exists.