How to re-fix True Healing

Phaserhawk

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Unknown

Lovely idea but I'm fairly certain the changes were made to healing in order to increase consumption of health packs and/or increase the importance of having a bigger roster so that you have more healthy characters to compete.

atomzed

Phaserhawk wrote:

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Some have suggested this "shield" before, but it will also create problems. For example, if you allow OBW to fire multiple heal, the shield can go up to a few thousands. It's worse than true healing in the sense that there's no upper limit to the shield, whereas health has an upper limit.

This may have minimal impact in offence, but will be tough in defence.

babinro

They should just remove true healing entirely.

Let characters like patch/daken/xforce heal DURING the matches but retain their lowest health values for the following match. These characters will still have more longevity than your typical character but we won't be able to use them like crutches anymore. The amount of value I get out of those 3 characters along is as much or more than I ever got from OBW before the healing changes were made.

Meaning, the intended impact of the true healing change failed. It didn't create a greater focus of roster diversity because the value of true healing characters are still substantially higher than others.

Black Panthor is the ultimate example of this. Here is a character that is IMMENSELY powerful in the current game and yet sees almost no play. Why? He doesn't self heal. He's typically good for 2 battles and then you need to heal him. Meanwhile, I can easily get 20+ matches out of xforce and heal him in the prologue or on an easier pve, LR node. The same holds true for patch and daken.

Unknown

For PvE here's my team setup, not counting any substitution limited by roster or the enemy roster:

easy: X Force + Daken + whoever
kind of hard: X Force + Daken + Falcon or someone who can cover red
hard: X Force + The Hood + someone who can cover red

There's no reason to not use X Force + Daken on anything you can beat comfortably because those two pretty much never have to be healed. Daken gets a bit iffy on the hardest node, though if there is no The Hood I'll probably still run him. Since The Hood is indeed overwhelmingly better on the hardest nodes I usually have to drop him to make sure I can still cover red.

rednailz

Phaserhawk wrote:

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Probably becuase OBW, spidey, beast and she-hulk don't really have true healing ablities whereas wolverine and daken actually do? The current system reflects some accuracy. Black widow has no special power or mutant ability that heals, same with the others.

It's been months, aren't we moving on?

Unknown

it wasnt by chance that true healing came up and soon X-force was buffed
its all about getting ppl to spend hp in covers or energy
Anyway, i prefer that change than the constant nerf of most used characters

xKOBALTx

rednailz wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Probably becuase OBW, spidey, beast and she-hulk don't really have true healing ablities whereas wolverine and daken actually do? The current system reflects some accuracy. Black widow has no special power or mutant ability that heals, same with the others.

It's been months, aren't we moving on?

The problem being that while those characters don't have true healing abilities, they are still stuck with a healing skill that is absolutely garbage in its current form. Take the 3* characters: all of them are near the bottom of the 3* ladder. While it's not the only reason, one has to think that the fact each one has a totally wasted/broken ability isn't exactly helping them, either. I think OBW is her own case with a useful secondary effect and still plenty useful in the 2*/transition realm.

The devs really should either revisit how non-true healing abilities work or scrap the line of them altogether and replace them on each character. The latter might actually be better in terms of helping to make those 3* characters more useful.

rednailz

xKOBALTx wrote:

The problem being that while those characters don't have true healing abilities, they are still stuck with a healing skill that is absolutely garbage in its current form. Take the 3* characters: all of them are near the bottom of the 3* ladder. While it's not the only reason, one has to think that the fact each one has a totally wasted/broken ability isn't exactly helping them, either. I think OBW is her own case with a useful secondary effect and still plenty useful in the 2*/transition realm.

The devs really should either revisit how non-true healing abilities work or scrap the line of them altogether and replace them on each character. The latter might actually be better in terms of helping to make those 3* characters more useful.

I can agree with that for sure. Although I agree OBW is plenty useful for what she is, IMO she was overpowered with the heal and a crutch for 90% of players and made PvP terrible and boring.

Although web bandages is essentually useless on attack, it's great on D and is a useful TU to have in your pocket. Beast and She-Hulk are pretty useless in general. Sure, She-Hulk's red does a some damage, but whatever. Her heal also drains enemy AP, so I think that was an attempt to make-up for no true heal.

Beast is just needing a 100% overhaul. I would agree spidey needs a different ability, heal has nothing to do with his real skill set and I'm sure everyone would love to see a cool useful skill for everyone's favorite web-head.

wirius

True healing never should have been in the game period. It broke one of the cardinal rules of game design: "Don't create systems that contradict your other systems." You create a game with limited healing to put everyone on a more even playing field and limit the time people grind for rewards. You don't then create a few characters with a way to completely negate this entire system. It was incompetant game design, and I'm glad they mostly fixed it.

Unknown

I think the better approach is to just cap health at what you entered the match with, so damage is 'sticky' and you can't heal up a badly hurt character in the prologue. If you play slowly and carefully, you should absolutely be able to heal up at the end of every match and extend your playing time.

You're never going to be able to climb that way however -- you can't afford to be un-shielded for that long past a certain point on the ladder.

Unknown

I think D3 may be subtly aware that the health pack restriction is a bit too much so that's why they think having stuff like true healing sort of balances it out except it usually ends up undoing the system they're placing in the first place. We really shouldn't have true healing at all but health regeneration can be significantly more generous. One suggestion I saw is make no character take more time than one PvE cycle (2H 24M) to heal to full and that'd at least work quite well for PvE. For PvP it's slightly different since rotating teams usually don't make much sense in PvP, but even if you just copy the same thing, that'd still help somewhat if the longest a character can be downed is 2H 24M instead of 7+ hours.

Unknown

What I would like to see is to treat the max HP as a soft cap that true healing cannot exceed but have a hard cap that is 10%-20% of a characters max HP that the burst heal can hit.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

I think D3 may be subtly aware that the health pack restriction is a bit too much so that's why they think having stuff like true healing sort of balances it out except it usually ends up undoing the system they're placing in the first place. We really shouldn't have true healing at all but health regeneration can be significantly more generous. One suggestion I saw is make no character take more time than one PvE cycle (2H 24M) to heal to full and that'd at least work quite well for PvE. For PvP it's slightly different since rotating teams usually don't make much sense in PvP, but even if you just copy the same thing, that'd still help somewhat if the longest a character can be downed is 2H 24M instead of 7+ hours.

I still think they should have increased "Max" health packs to 8 with the true healing change

Dayv

atomzed wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Some have suggested this "shield" before, but it will also create problems. For example, if you allow OBW to fire multiple heal, the shield can go up to a few thousands. It's worse than true healing in the sense that there's no upper limit to the shield, whereas health has an upper limit.

This may have minimal impact in offence, but will be tough in defence.

There are easy ways to deal with that, mostly involving a cap on maximum "bonus" life. It might be 20% over the character's base health, or it might be no more than half the healing granted by the skill being used, or maybe each skill could have a different max % above base it could take a character to...

I'm a big fan of having these skills grant some level of bonus health, because otherwise you're in the irritating mode of having to wait for people to get hurt before they have any value, but then losing the value you got out of it at the end of the match. Until these skill can exceed base life, they'll take a back seat to defense tiles, and many players already dislike those as well.

edit: I agree with Phantron's comment below -- I don't think a cap on bonus health is even needed, but if the devs decided it was there are a number of ways it could be implemented.

Unknown

I have no problem with a defensive game over. If someone fired off enough abilities to get 50K of buffer on everyone that's no different than firing enough offensive moves to do 50K of damage on everyone. Assuming the 'shield' HPs aren't ridiculous overpowering relative to damage done, if someone can put up 10K shield on everyone that should at least be comparable to say 5K damage on everyone else offensively (each damage done = 2 HP healed, and so far I think no healing ability exceeds this ratio anyway) so it should be just as painful to overcome.

homeinvasion

Ive said this before but a good compromise would be PVP has True Healing ( you are playing others peeps) and PVE should have actual healing (Old School like 2013 stylz)

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

After true healing really hurt some characters, (OBW, Spiderman) and has since really affected characters after my thought is why not do a compromise? Essentially allow the chracters themselves OBW, Spiderman, Beast, She-Hulk to have true healing for themselves but it creates a shield for their teammates. In other words if Spiderman casts Bandages for 1500 health, he would true heal for 1500 and his teammates would be shielded for 1500 just like it works now. All that it entails is changing the text in the skill to make it work and then obviously tweak the programing. It still doesn't fix the AP cost of some of the healing skills but at least you can justify dropping 12 yellow AP to true Heal Spiderman or 12 Green AP to heal She-Hulk

Some have suggested this "shield" before, but it will also create problems. For example, if you allow OBW to fire multiple heal, the shield can go up to a few thousands. It's worse than true healing in the sense that there's no upper limit to the shield, whereas health has an upper limit.

This may have minimal impact in offence, but will be tough in defence.

I think you got it wrong. OP suggested the healers true heal themselves and the rest should work like how it is working now (temp heal). If Spiderman heals multiple times he will possibly heal himself to his normal maximum health points and other too but the temp heal will be gone from his team mates when the match ends.

atomzed

Phantron wrote:

I have no problem with a defensive game over. If someone fired off enough abilities to get 50K of buffer on everyone that's no different than firing enough offensive moves to do 50K of damage on everyone. Assuming the 'shield' HPs aren't ridiculous overpowering relative to damage done, if someone can put up 10K shield on everyone that should at least be comparable to say 5K damage on everyone else offensively (each damage done = 2 HP healed, and so far I think no healing ability exceeds this ratio anyway) so it should be just as painful to overcome.

I wonder whether they would be willing to do a trial on this. I do think that fake healing should be given an improvement. As of now, those skills are almost useless.

Dayv

The whole true healing announcement was poorly handled. They should have been direct and said "we've realized that area-of-effect healing skills are too powerful and easily abused, so we've made a distinction: all AoE healing is temporary, skills that only heal their owner are permanent. This change to AoE healing should diversify the characters in use and add more variety, while removing the benefits of tedious prologue healing. To help offset this, change we're improving character recovery times and health pack drop rates."

People would still have been mad, but at least they wouldn't have wrapped a nerf-turd in a fancy box and tried to make it sound like they were rolling out a new feature.

Unknown

You don't need a trial to see that healing as 'shield' would work. Imagine this thought experiment. You're doing PvP against Spiderman, and then the computer activated a hack and obtained 24 yellow AP before the match even started. A new, improved version of Web Bandages absorbs 6000 HP on every character, so they use it twice immediately for 12K HP on everyone. Are you going to say 'this is an outrage, I rather take 2 Rage of the Panther for 7400 damage on my team for 24 black AP because I'll at least have 10 AP to work with my mostly dead team?" No, because if the AI did 2 Rage of the Panthers you're almost certain to lose the game no matter who you run. Certainly The Hood or anyone in the 6800 HP class is simply gone. Even the strongest character like Sentry or X Force would be down to 3K HP. Sure, ROTP is a powerful ability, but the comparison should show that even a vastly more powerful version of fake healing is still not nearly as good as existing damaging attacks. This isn't a RPG where healing are designed to be more cost efficient than damaging attacks. In fact, most heals are quite cost inefficient for the same AP spent compared to damaging attacks, but even if they are not, it'd take more than heal 6000 on 12 AP to make it more attractive than simply using it offensively and heals are nowhere near that.