Thor and Ragnarok are ruining this game

2

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Damn. You so consistently said Punisher that I thought they already added some other 1* version. Oh well.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I think Thor is scarier than Wolvie. Wolvie is consistent but for 1 in 20 games, Thor will land a freak cascade and ruin your day. I'm not a gambling type, so I'd rather fight Wolvie. Also, you can kill Wolvie faster, so I'd rather take the quicker games.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Thor is seen everywhere because he's still strictly better than anyone in 2 star besides Wolverine (which has tradeoffs versus Thor). He also benefits greatly from the AI's ability to pull off crazy cascades from seemingly nothing. He probably should do less damage for a character that's so sturdy, but overall the character concept is workable.

    Ragnarok only having 2 abilities or 2 colors is meaningless if it doesn't make you want to drop him for someone else. As far as I can tell nobody is dropping a 5r Ragnarok for a random level 141 hero, so whatever his weakness might be, it's clearly not enough to matter. Since you can only have 13 covers, that sort of implies out of the 3 skills a normal character get, one of them probably isn't very good. Ragnarok has one awesome skill (Thunderclap) and another very good one (Godlike Power) and it really doesn't matter if he has a marginal third skill like Pistols.

    For PvE consideration, there's nothing stopping the PvE encounters feature a different version of Ragnarok if he's changed in some way. If you can have Devil Dinosaur as a unique hero on your team, it obviously stands that the enemy team can also have unique heroes not obtainable by any other method.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    whining is ruining this game
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phantron wrote:
    Thor is seen everywhere because he's still strictly better than anyone in 2 star besides Wolverine (which has tradeoffs versus Thor). He also benefits greatly from the AI's ability to pull off crazy cascades from seemingly nothing. He probably should do less damage for a character that's so sturdy, but overall the character concept is workable.

    Ragnarok only having 2 abilities or 2 colors is meaningless if it doesn't make you want to drop him for someone else. As far as I can tell nobody is dropping a 5r Ragnarok for a random level 141 hero, so whatever his weakness might be, it's clearly not enough to matter. Since you can only have 13 covers, that sort of implies out of the 3 skills a normal character get, one of them probably isn't very good. Ragnarok has one awesome skill (Thunderclap) and another very good one (Godlike Power) and it really doesn't matter if he has a marginal third skill like Pistols.

    Ok, so Thor is strictly better than all the other 2*s, is used all the time, is played well by the AI, synergizes well with his only possible replacement that's also a 2*, is easily defeatable by 2* teams, but is fine.

    Ragnarok is strictly better than all the other 3*, is used all the time, is played well by the AI, synergizes well with his only possible replacement that's also a 3* (Hulk), is easily defeatable by 3* teams, but needs to be nerfed.

    You don't see the cognitive dissonance between these two? Really?

    Run the numbers and compare 1* vs 2* and explain why Ragnarok needs to be nerfed, but the current 2* roster is fine.

    Or we could realize that, no, really, both the current 2* and 3* "best of" are fine and the issue is that the others are underpowered and/or misused by the AI. Instead of nerfing the top, improve the underperforming. I'm just utterly sick of people whining about a 3* and comparing it to 2*s while not following the logic further down the line.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I say make thunderclap do 0 damage but generate 7 greens icon_twisted.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    DumDumDugn wrote:
    I say make thunderclap do 0 damage but generate 7 greens icon_twisted.gif

    YES. Nerf this skill into oblivion!

    >_>
    <_<

    "Nerf". icon_lol.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Thor and Ragnarok are nothing alike. Thor's problem is his generally impressive stats (high HP, high damage) so that there's a pretty good chance he lives long enough to get big moves off while another character that's supposed to be a glass cannon does not (and doesn't even do more damage).

    Raganarok is more like as soon as he has any red you'll just start hearing 'RARRR!' and "ARRR!" every turn. There is no real preventive strategy unless 'never let them get green or red' counts as one. Once Thunderclap gets rolling there is never any reprieve from it since it feeds itself.

    My losses against Thor usually is because of my fault and didn't think about the cascades as much as I should. Thor generally needs either 12 red or 12 yellow to start rolling, and you don't just accidentally let an opponent pick up that many red/yellow. Although he is powerful for his tier, you can strategize against him. For Ragnarok, all you can do is hope they never matched any red or green.
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    DumDumDugn wrote:
    whining is ruining this game
    QFT!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I just got a 5 red Rags. Discovered an awesome team of Rags, Classic Storm and Spidey. Rags never ending rain of green tiles feeds storm who then just generates more AP for Rags. If I use red/yellow and all +3 boosts, I can usually end the game on the first turn. icon_eek.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    @zathrus. Except, you know, he DOES out-tank almost every 3*** available lol. I do think the AI stupidity plays a role here most don't try to quantify. Magneto isnt really that great on def. Lowish hp pool for a 3**, machine doesn't use his blue well (it would be funny/annoying as hell if it did), a high cost purple can be avoided with proper planning, his red is mostly useless for the AI, and he doesn't even like matching purple since he doesn't have a high damage value for that color. Compare that to rag who the machine uses quite well due to high hp, low ap costs, mundane thoughtless abilities (AI is stupid, so stupid is good for it), red chaining into green, the machine actively looks for red and green with ragnarok, a move that allows for lucky cascades. Rag is basically.the perfect AI choice given its current "not exactly.skynet" abilities. The abilities and weaknesses of the ai I think are huge in how good the characters are..defensively at least. Personally, If rag just killed fast and was medioce on def I don't think ppl would have the same type of issue with him.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The power of rag on defense is being overstated by newer players. He's less annoying to fight than hulk or spidey. Most of the time I leave him for last or just 1 shot him with magneto.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    DumDumDugn wrote:
    The power of rag on defense is being overstated by newer players. He's less annoying to fight than hulk or spidey. Most of the time I leave him for last or just 1 shot him with magneto.

    I think the perception is exaggerated by the fact that the level 240 version of him are still fresh in mind from the hulk event. And a 2AP ability at level 240 is a scary thing, because of how much all damage scales up.
  • Katai
    Katai Posts: 278 Mover and Shaker
    Thor and Ragnarok are really the only visible "nukers" in the game's meta. They represent the simplest way to do damage. Gather AP -> Cast for damage. They have the best conversion rates for AP to Damage, and every team needs someone in this role.

    The solution, in my mind, isn't to nerf them (although I think Ragnarok needs to be toned down a tad). I think the solution is to put more characters who are straight up damage dealers. Wolverine sort of sits in this role because strike tiles gives him damage. Other forms of damage aren't viable right now. Modern Hawkeye would be great, but countdown tiles are awful. Captain America's "dps" style damage is way too slow. The best skills are things you can do in a single turn. Anything that forces you to stun or allow the enemy to make a move is too dangerous.

    I'd be okay with nerfing the thunder gods, but I would much rather see more characters do the kind of damage they do so you have to choose between them.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Katai wrote:
    Thor and Ragnarok are really the only visible "nukers" in the game's meta. They represent the simplest way to do damage. Gather AP -> Cast for damage. They have the best conversion rates for AP to Damage, and every team needs someone in this role.

    The solution, in my mind, isn't to nerf them (although I think Ragnarok needs to be toned down a tad). I think the solution is to put more characters who are straight up damage dealers. Wolverine sort of sits in this role because strike tiles gives him damage. Other forms of damage aren't viable right now. Modern Hawkeye would be great, but countdown tiles are awful. Captain America's "dps" style damage is way too slow. The best skills are things you can do in a single turn. Anything that forces you to stun or allow the enemy to make a move is too dangerous.

    I'd be okay with nerfing the thunder gods, but I would much rather see more characters do the kind of damage they do so you have to choose between them.

    Magneto and Black Widow laugh at Thor and Rags damage/AP ratios
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Having more guys that do damage on red on par with Thor/Ragnarok is the same as nerfing just Thor and Ragnarok's red.

    The level 240 Ragnaroks aren't that much more powerful than your own 80% boosted characters comparatively. If character power gain is linear, then he's basically equivalent of a level 133 Raganrok against normal max level characters.
  • mischiefmaker
    mischiefmaker Posts: 932
    Character power definitely isn't linear:
    Level 15 Ragnarok:   1140	4  10	 4	4  10	4, 118 damage for Thunderclap
7x boosted Ragnarok: 7980  28  70   28  28  70  28, 826 damage for Thunderclap

Level 115 Ragnarok:  7111  10  51	10  11  51  11, 633 damage for Thunderclap

    So an 80% boost to your own characters is actually even better than a strict level multiplier would suggest.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    mischiefmaker wrote:
    Character power definitely isn't linear:
    Level 15 Ragnarok:   1140	4  10	 4	4  10	4, 118 damage for Thunderclap
7x boosted Ragnarok: 7980  28  70   28  28  70  28, 826 damage for Thunderclap

Level 115 Ragnarok:  7111  10  51	10  11  51  11, 633 damage for Thunderclap

    So an 80% boost to your own characters is actually even better than a strict level multiplier would suggest.

    Yeah, I suspected such. Just saying those level 240 Ragnaroks aren't really that much more powerful than your own 80% boosted Wolverines and whatnot, so it's actually a reasonably accurate comparison to use The Hulk event.
  • Katai
    Katai Posts: 278 Mover and Shaker
    DumDumDugn wrote:
    Katai wrote:
    Thor and Ragnarok are really the only visible "nukers" in the game's meta. They represent the simplest way to do damage. Gather AP -> Cast for damage. They have the best conversion rates for AP to Damage, and every team needs someone in this role.

    The solution, in my mind, isn't to nerf them (although I think Ragnarok needs to be toned down a tad). I think the solution is to put more characters who are straight up damage dealers. Wolverine sort of sits in this role because strike tiles gives him damage. Other forms of damage aren't viable right now. Modern Hawkeye would be great, but countdown tiles are awful. Captain America's "dps" style damage is way too slow. The best skills are things you can do in a single turn. Anything that forces you to stun or allow the enemy to make a move is too dangerous.

    I'd be okay with nerfing the thunder gods, but I would much rather see more characters do the kind of damage they do so you have to choose between them.

    Magneto and Black Widow laugh at Thor and Rags damage/AP ratios

    I assume you mean Grey Black Widow, who has obscenely high AP costs for her green. I have no experience with Magneto, but considering I never see Magneto in play probably means they aren't up to par.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Katai wrote:
    DumDumDugn wrote:
    Katai wrote:
    Thor and Ragnarok are really the only visible "nukers" in the game's meta. They represent the simplest way to do damage. Gather AP -> Cast for damage. They have the best conversion rates for AP to Damage, and every team needs someone in this role.

    The solution, in my mind, isn't to nerf them (although I think Ragnarok needs to be toned down a tad). I think the solution is to put more characters who are straight up damage dealers. Wolverine sort of sits in this role because strike tiles gives him damage. Other forms of damage aren't viable right now. Modern Hawkeye would be great, but countdown tiles are awful. Captain America's "dps" style damage is way too slow. The best skills are things you can do in a single turn. Anything that forces you to stun or allow the enemy to make a move is too dangerous.

    I'd be okay with nerfing the thunder gods, but I would much rather see more characters do the kind of damage they do so you have to choose between them.

    Magneto and Black Widow laugh at Thor and Rags damage/AP ratios

    I assume you mean Grey Black Widow, who has obscenely high AP costs for her green. I have no experience with Magneto, but considering I never see Magneto in play probably means they aren't up to par.

    Magneto does 8268 max damage with 10 purple = 826 damage per AP
    Widow does roughly 11,000 damage with 19 green = 579 damage per AP

    Ragnarok does 620 damage for 2 red + whatever he cascades. Generous estimate would be 500 damage per AP.
    Thor does 1113 damage for 6 red = 185.5 damage per AP (his yellow has the same ratio).


    You don't see magneto because his covers are hard to get.

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