An idea for balancing, limiting the OPness.

Unknown

mechgouki wrote:

I noticed that when Rag gets an extra turn from Venom's Snare, he doesn't use Powers again, even though he had enough AP. Not sure why. Definitely not like Storm.

He has against me before.

Unknown

I personally would like to see them make the characters that aren't widely used more powerful than lowering the power of the popular characters. I think Thor is the perfect example of how I personally would like to see characters in the game... one low cost move and then a couple finishing moves. Makes the game more interesting to get to actually use powers. I'd also say Wolverine and Storm (Classic) are very well balanced in my opinion.

Kelbris

OP is a known troll, just a heads up

Unknown

Magneto's red is a perfect example of what a cheap move should be. It basically just shakes up the board and does nothing else. It may or may not cascade and you're certainly out of your mind if you're depending on it to get certain colors you need. The damage Magneto's red does would like be in the 200 range per application (assuming no strike tiles) so you're looking at 1K damage per 10 red AP, which is low for a red skill. The tradeoff is that you can use it way earlier and you might even get lucky.

On the subject of strike tiles, you might as well say Feral Claws, which is another example of a vastly undercosted ability. If you only get 5 application out of a strike tile and you only create one at a time, that's still 723 damage per 3 green AP. Outside of Daken, you really can't race against Feral Claws by denying tiles since it takes only 3 green AP to create one, and Daken is not exactly a powerful character in general. Then there's the fact that Feral Claws will definitely benefit from strike tiles (since it creates them). Let's say you just Feral Claws 3 times in a row with 0 red AP, you'll do 278, 278+89, and 278+2*89 for a total of 1101 damage, and you'd have 3 strike tiles up. If each of those lasted for 5 application, that's 3*89*5 = 1335, so 9 green AP gets you 2436 damage. Yes occasionally you could possibly do worse, but this is extremely conservative (5 uses of strike tile) and even if you get 0 uses you did at least 1101 damage for 9g, which is certainly not terrible.

While perfect balance is unlikely, you can't have a skill that's cheaper that also does more damage than higher cost abilities. Any green ability that does less than 1101 damage for 9g is strictly worse than Feral Claws in terms of damage, just like any red ability that does less than 3125 damage for 10r is strictly worse than Thunderclap (which is pretty much all of them) before we even consider the beneficial side effects or that cheap abilities can be used much earlier.

Unknown

I've actually suggested this for Thunderclap as a way to make the ability more strategic and to bring Ragnarok into line, but having this as a blanket change is a poor idea. Don't ruin everything that makes the game fun because one or two powers are out of whack.

Unknown

I don't see that limiting to ability per turn is necessary. If I delay using an ability for later, I don't see it necessary to be penalized for waiting. I think it might detract from some strategies.

I think it would be interesting to have the limitation but I doubt it will have the effect the OP wants. I don't think it's necessary.

Unknown

There are currently 3 ability that basically combos with themselves: Thunderclap, Magnetized Field, and Take Aim. Something needs to be done about them, but I don't think a blanket nerf of one ability per turn is necessary, and further it really doesn't solve the problem because if an ability was overpowered before, it's still overpowered when all other abilities are subject to the same restriction. The AI already operates under this limit and I'm sure it's easy to observe Ragnarok can still get plenty of chains going just by himself (both Godlike Power and Thunderclap gives an excellent opportunity to make a match 5 to continue the chain). Magnetized Field would just mean every turn you get a blue match 4 or 5 instead of getting 5 of them in one turn (and a blue match 5 would allow you to use it again anyway). Take Aim would mean you get a Thorned Rose every turn instead of 5 of them at once. That's still completely unbalanced.

I don't have problem with say Storm or even Thor apparently able to chain certain abilities for a very long time because those ability require having a large amount of AP in reserve. Without a large amount of green AP you can't count on Lightning Storm to shatter enough tiles to fuel other abilities, and likewise without a large amount of red/yellow you can't count on Myrolinar/Thunder Strike always cascading into something else. The closest thing to a problematic combo is Modern Storm on the forest level but that's because environmental damage on that level is overpowered so you can often get a loop of Mistress of the Storm -> Thorned Rose -> whatever -> repeat, and at least that combo can be stopped by making environmental tiles a priority when you see Modern Storm on forest.

I think the general principle of Lightning Storm would work well. That is, a powerful ability requires you to hold a large amount of AP to be useful.

Spoit

So thunderclap should work like wolvie's power? scaling the number of generated tiles based on stored AP?

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

So thunderclap should work like wolvie's power? scaling the number of generated tiles based on stored AP?

Well that's the closest existing mechanism I can think of. The damage needs to be toned down a bit too. Even if Thunderclap only did damage, at 655 per 2 red AP it'd still be a premier red skill.

For tile generation, maybe generate 3 green + 1 per 5 green AP? This means you'd have to build up to 10 green AP before it's as powerful as it currently is, though once you build up to 10 it'd probably be a runaway victory. But that's okay because at least you had to build up some green in the first place, and hold off using Godlike Power for a while. I know getting big combos is part of the fun of the game, but combos should require at least require some commitment.

Unknown

2-star characters have the same number of hit points as 3-star until level 85
2-star characters have higher stats than 3-star until level 115.

So, what's the trade-off? I'd like to believe it's superior abilities.


[EDIT]
The ISO-8 cost to get from level 6 to 85... Neighborhood of 80,000 ISO-8?
The ISO-8 cost between level 85 and 115 is in the neighborhood of 50,000 ISO-8.
The ISO-8 cost for the remaining 26 levels... Neighborhood of 80,000 ISO-8?

Between level 85 and 115 is an area of flux where the 3-star character has better HP but worse stats
At level 115 the 3* character has better stats and hit points

Why should a 3* not have superior abilities

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

2-star characters have the same number of hit points as 3-star until level 85
2-star characters have higher stats than 3-star until level 115.

So, what's the trade-off? I'd like to believe it's superior abilities.

From design 3 star abilities tends to be more complicated but not strictly better. For example let's use Adamantium Claw as a baseline red AP ability, since that's about as simple as it gets. This is 2225 damage for 10 red AP when maxed. If you look at red abilities, you won't find something that's "Better Adamantium Claw" that does say, 2500 damage for 10 red AP. Retribution does less damage (equivalent of 1852 for 10 AP), but has a useful side effect against certain characters. Pistols seem like just plain bad. Magnetized Projectile does about 300 damage per application plus an unpredictable amount of cascade damage for 2 red AP. Unibeam is equivlent of 2737 damage for 10 red when normalized, but the initial investment is greater (need 13 to use) and drains other color APs. The only ability that breaks this is Thunderclap. At 633 damage for 2 red AP, it is strictly better than Adamantium Claw (or any other red ability in terms of damage in its tier) becase that's 3165 damage per 10 red. It's even more damage than Unibeam, which does nothing but damage and has a drawback.

If the point is that 3 star characters are supposed to be powerful then every red ability at that tier needs to do more than equivalent of 3165 damage per 10 red at the 3 star tier, because none of them has a side effect that's remotely as good as Thunderclap. This isn't even factoring Thunderclap's beneficial interaction with strike tiles or that it can be used much earlier than virtually any other red skill in the game, and that it is unlikely to overkill while an ability like Unibeam most certainly can.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

2-star characters have the same number of hit points as 3-star until level 85
2-star characters have higher stats than 3-star until level 115.

So, what's the trade-off? I'd like to believe it's superior abilities.

From design 3 star abilities tends to be more complicated but not strictly better. For example let's use Adamantium Claw as a baseline red AP ability, since that's about as simple as it gets. This is 2225 damage for 10 red AP when maxed. If you look at red abilities, you won't find something that's "Better Adamantium Claw" that does say, 2500 damage for 10 red AP. Retribution does less damage (equivalent of 1852 for 10 AP), but has a useful side effect against certain characters. Pistols seem like just plain bad. Magnetized Projectile does about 300 damage per application plus an unpredictable amount of cascade damage for 2 red AP. Unibeam is equivlent of 2737 damage for 10 red when normalized, but the initial investment is greater (need 13 to use) and drains other color APs. The only ability that breaks this is Thunderclap. At 633 damage for 2 red AP, it is strictly better than Adamantium Claw (or any other red ability in terms of damage in its tier) becase that's 3165 damage per 10 red. It's even more damage than Unibeam, which does nothing but damage and has a drawback.

If the point is that 3 star characters are supposed to be powerful then every red ability at that tier needs to do more than equivalent of 3165 damage per 10 red at the 3 star tier, because none of them has a side effect that's remotely as good as Thunderclap. This isn't even factoring Thunderclap's beneficial interaction with strike tiles or that it can be used much earlier than virtually any other red skill in the game, and that it is unlikely to overkill while an ability like Unibeam most certainly can.

Consider "Nothing in Excess"

I've already shared my thoughts on Ragnarok in previous threads. I do not consider him OP however I am very well aware of the headache he is. I have challenged myself to go against him (112 RAG, 140 S-M, 140 GSBW) (115 RAG, 141 S-M, 141 IM40) with seemingly under-powered parties, and have succeeded without downed characters. I don't always win but I've had substantially more wins than losses. My casualties are less than expected.

Ragnarok does little, IM40 is much more versatile.

Unknown

I was a bit rushed in my previous post.

Consider the overall character, and not the individual power. I rarely use Ragnarok. He's still at level 90. Punisher is level 115. I think punisher needs a bit of polish but he's more useful to me than Ragnarok.

@ Phantron, please note the edit in my post you replied to

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

For example let's use Adamantium Claw as a baseline red AP ability, since that's about as simple as it gets. This is 2225 damage for 10 red AP when maxed. If you look at red abilities, you won't find something that's "Better Adamantium Claw" that does say, 2500 damage for 10 red AP. Retribution does less damage (equivalent of 1852 for 10 AP), but has a useful side effect against certain characters. Pistols seem like just plain bad. Magnetized Projectile does about 300 damage per application plus an unpredictable amount of cascade damage for 2 red AP. Unibeam is equivlent of 2737 damage for 10 red when normalized, but the initial investment is greater (need 13 to use) and drains other color APs.

Nobody is intentionally using level 5 adamantium claw, level 3 is 185.4 damage per red AP. Retribution is 185.3 plus the bonus execute if you're at least level 4. (I'm too noob to know how punishers are built yet, if they're 5/5/3 then it's probably something like 138.9.) Thunderclap is 316.5 plus the bonus green tiles. Magnetized Projectile is average 71.1/94.8/142.2 plus chance for cascades. And having just calculated pistols, it's time to put grey suit widow in a home.

Unknown

My wolverine has 5/5 Adamantium Claw

Unknown

What about making Rag's red ability end your turn when you use it?

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

My wolverine has 5/5 Adamantium Claw

I'm sorry.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

My wolverine has 5/5 Adamantium Claw

Oh bugpop, ever the rebel

If you ever have time to post your favorite combo of characters and powers I for one would love to see them.

Unknown

Aluminium_Man wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

My wolverine has 5/5 Adamantium Claw

I'm sorry.

I really dislike this school of thought that's so common on these forums. So his Wolverine has 5 Red, where you think 5/3/5 is "optimal", so? If he likes the way that character runs, no need to feel sorry for him.

mischiefmaker

Actually, now that there's a 2* healer, I think 5/5/3 might be better than 5/3/5. At 3 you'll usually heal anyway, and the times you don't you should be able to make up for it with OBW's blue, which you'll use anyway to heal herself.

5/5/3 is definitely better on defense (I know, I know, who cares about defense), too.

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