PVE Reward Structure

Nellyson

So, PVE isn't PVP right? Therefor the reward structure needs to be redone. I say this because it was incredibly infuriating that I had about a 10% chance of getting all 3 Colossus covers. Shouldn't that be a 100% chance? PVE is supposed to be you against the AI, not you against fellow players. That's what PVP is for. You rank against fellow players to determine who comes out on top! PVE is supposed to be your ability to work through the progressions and earn rewards. So, I want to make the suggestion of putting all covers in PVE in the progression rewards and not in a bracket against other players. However, you can still maintain the brackets if you'd like. I would also suggest changing those rewards. Instead of covers for ranks, make them token packs and tokens. So for first place, and with all the places still give the and but instead of all the covers, you give a 42 pack. Hell, maybe still the 4* cover, but you could also do a cover of the players choice. But for this instance, just the 42 pack. Then 2-5 place give 2 10 packs. 6-10 would win one 10 pack. 11-25 would win 5 heroic tokens. 26-50 could win 3 heroics. 50-150 would win 2 heroics. 151-200 would win 1 herioc. 201-300 would win 10 standard tokens. 301-400 would win 5 standards. And finally 401-500 would win 2 standards. I feel this give absolutely EVERYBODY a chance to win the new characters, rather than just the top 150 in each bracket. I mean, why are only the top 150 allowed to win the new character anyways??? That's totally not fair to the player base. Especially when the next PVE WILL REQUIRE THAT FREAKING NEW CHARACTER! It's a broken system and I'd really like to see all covers in the progression. Where in the progression, I don't care. Make it almost impossible for all 3, whatever. At least it'll be up the player instead of how you're stacking up against other players. So here the smilies breakdown:

1st Place- 42 plus 5000 and 100 and maybe even a random

2nd-5th Place- 10 x2 plus 5000 and 100

6th-10th Place- 10 plus 2000 and 50

11th-25th Place- 5 plus 1000 and 50

26th-50th Place- 3 plus 1000 and 50

51st-150th Place- 2 plus 500 and 25

151st-200th Place- 1 plus 500

201st-300th Place- 10 standard recruit tokens plus 250

301st-400th Place- 5 standard recruit tokens plus 100

401st-500th Place- 2 standard recruit tokens plus 50


Then of course, you make up the progressions like always.


So yeah, that's my thoughts on something that I feel REALLY REALLY needs to be addressed and fixed. Again....PVE is not PVP and it shouldn't be rewarded the same!

Sandmaker

There's really no difference between earning rewards from progression or earning it from a points competition. They are the exact same points earned the exact same way.

For example, in the last heroic 70k+ would get you to 1st/2nd place. If they changed the system to progression only, they would simply set that progression reward as requiring 70k. If you couldn't hit that number before, you still wouldn't be able to get the rewards.

Kolence

But in some brackets 10 people will make that score and only top 2 will get the reward, where in another bracket, top player will have lower score than those 10 from the stronger bracket and still win better reward than 8 of them. So there is difference.

Nellyson

Sandmaker wrote:

There's really no difference between earning rewards from progression or earning it from a points competition. They are the exact same points earned the exact same way.

For example, in the last heroic 70k+ would get you to 1st/2nd place. If they changed the system to progression only, they would simply set that progression reward as requiring 70k. If you couldn't hit that number before, you still wouldn't be able to get the rewards.

Ummmm...yeah, you haven't seen many various brackets have you? I remember one event, I think it was Falcon covers, but I had over 80K+ and took somewhere in the 20-50 region. My buddy, who was obviously in a different bracket had about 35-45K, but took first.

Also, everyone should like my suggestion to make it green and maybe we can get this broken system fixed!!!

Unknown

While i love the idea for PVE rewards, i highly doubt that D3 will be nice enough to give it to us... I do however agree having progression awards would be much easier going on ones sanity over trying to stay 1st or even top 5 in a crazy competitive PVE bracket...

I've mean i've seen event PVE's where top 2 were over 20K points ahead of 3rd sometimes at well over 100K points when the rest of the field are below 80K...

Sandmaker

Nellyson wrote:

Ummmm...yeah, you haven't seen many various brackets have you? I remember one event, I think it was Falcon covers, but I had over 80K+ and took somewhere in the 20-50 region. My buddy, who was obviously in a different bracket had about 35-45K, but took first.

You're missing my point. In your mind progression rewards are easy and achievable. But that's only because currently the real rewards are in the player ranking rewards, so the progression is allowed to be made easy and achievable by everyone.

If they change everything to a progression system, it means they have to set thresholds to challenge all players, including the current top points players. This means you and your 45k point friend will probably see less rewards than you are right now.

Unknown

I would be happy just to see progression rewards go all the way up to the maximum score possible in a PvE. I got my 20K Colossus in the first half of the PvE, I have a fully covered Punisher, and my alliance is good enough to meet our goals if I slack in part 2. Which is what I am going to do. Which means D3 gets no last minute HP sales from me, and the many others I am sure are in the same position. It hurts them more than it hurts us.

Polares

Sandmaker wrote:

There's really no difference between earning rewards from progression or earning it from a points competition. They are the exact same points earned the exact same way.

For example, in the last heroic 70k+ would get you to 1st/2nd place. If they changed the system to progression only, they would simply set that progression reward as requiring 70k. If you couldn't hit that number before, you still wouldn't be able to get the rewards.

I think you are completely wrong.

You only need your hard work to get all progression rewards, on the other hand if you want to achieve a good position in the bracket you are compiting against a lot of people, and you need to play before the end of the evernt so you can win all possible points.

I will give you some examples, in the last Juggernaut event I got all progression rewards by a long margin (the day before the end) and I could get only the 25th position (1 colossus cover). In the event before that, I played a lot to win a Blue Fury reward for the 1-2 position (I won a Fury and three thors), and in a 7 day long event, I got all progression rewards two days before the end of the event. So If you play hard you will get all progression reward without problems, but maybe you will not be on the top of the bracket. In the actual Deadpool event I already got all the progression rewards a day before the end...

Unknown

Polares wrote:

In the actual Deadpool event I already got all the progression rewards a day before the end...

Exactly. And now if I want the PunPun covers (which I do), I will have to continue playing with no sense of progression (no more rewards until the end) in order to keep my current position or go higher for Pun covers (which is PVP-like behavior).

CNash

There's another aspect to it. Demiurge have to gauge how popular an event is likely to be in order to set the progression rewards at the correct thresholds. It's no good setting the top reward in a 4-day event at 50,000 and then watch as the majority of players hit that mark within 2 days, then never play the event again as there's no point.

While I agree that the competitive aspect really does have to go, it's not quite as simple as just removing it entirely.

Unknown

CNash wrote:

It's no good setting the top reward in a 4-day event at 50,000 and then watch as the majority of players hit that mark within 2 days, then never play the event again as there's no point.

While I agree with your point, it is not good to play the full 4 days either to get the top reward. By now they have enough numbers to know what the best players can do, average and low ones. They have almost a full year of statistics of how players have placed and all the min, max and averages to know how players can perform. So if in a 4-day event I play 2-3 hours a day, I am an average and if I play 4-5 hours a day I can get close to top and even reach that big reward, then we have a good pattern.

It is completely up to the player whether he wants to play 10 hours in one day in order to get that top reward or split the game play throughout the event. But at least in this case, you do not force only a percentage of people to get a certain reward that is a KEY point for the very next event.

I will give you a good example of why rank rewards are bad. Let us say that at a certain time, enough people will be powerful enough to fill all the first spots in the ranks. So people who are transitioning will actually not have any chances unless they step back from playing hard. Rank rewards will force those people trying to transition to stay back and make it extremely hard for them to feel part of the game. While if you have progression rewards, all the big sharks will get the rewards if they want to, but they will not be "stealing" them from people that REALLY need them.

Sandmaker

Polares wrote:

I think you are completely wrong.

You only need your hard work to get all progression rewards, on the other hand if you want to achieve a good position in the bracket you are compiting against a lot of people, and you need to play before the end of the evernt so you can win all possible points.

Okin107 wrote:

Exactly. And now if I want the PunPun covers (which I do), I will have to continue playing with no sense of progression (no more rewards until the end) in order to keep my current position or go higher for Pun covers (which is PVP-like behavior).

No...A progression only system won't make things easier, and it won't make it so you don't have to play at the end. Again, the points are earned the exact same way regardless of how the rewards are distributed.

Okay. You guys want progression rewards for the IW/Punisher covers for this event? Here's the top end progression rewards for the current deadpool event:

80k points - 1 IW Green Cover
75k points - 1 Punisher Green Cover
65k points - 1 Punishers Black Covers
50k points - 1 Punisher Red Cover

Hit those progression thresholds and I guarantee you will win that prize this event. I'll even be willing to put my money on it. I'll buy you the covers if you can hit those points this event and still not get that cover.

Unknown

Sandmaker wrote:

Polares wrote:

I think you are completely wrong.

You only need your hard work to get all progression rewards, on the other hand if you want to achieve a good position in the bracket you are compiting against a lot of people, and you need to play before the end of the evernt so you can win all possible points.

Okin107 wrote:

Exactly. And now if I want the PunPun covers (which I do), I will have to continue playing with no sense of progression (no more rewards until the end) in order to keep my current position or go higher for Pun covers (which is PVP-like behavior).

No...A progression only system won't make things easier, and it won't make it so you don't have to play at the end. Again, the points are earned the exact same way regardless of how the rewards are distributed.

Okay. You guys want progression rewards for the IW/Punisher covers for this event? Here's the top end progression rewards for the current deadpool event:

80k points - 1 IW Green Cover
75k points - 1 Punisher Green Cover
65k points - 1 Punishers Black Covers
50k points - 1 Punisher Red Cover

Hit those progression thresholds and I guarantee you will win that prize this event. I'll even be willing to put my money on it. I'll buy you the covers if you can hit those points this event and still not get that cover.

I did not mention anywhere that the developers should use arbitrary impossible values for the top rewards. I did mention in another post that they should use the statistics they have gathered so far to find that balance of points/rewards.

For the current event, if I am 149th, I get one Pun red cover. But if I do not continue to mindlessly milk the nodes every refresh until the end of the event I will just get some ISO (Which is not what PVE is about in theory). While in the progression rewards, if I only want the red Pun cover and I know I cannot go higher, I can fight my way to get the cover and call the event a win and wish myself better luck as I get stronger.

As it currently stands, I am being punished for not being competitive with other players to the very last moment in a game mode that is clearly not meant for this. Keep in mind that players that cannot compete in PVP (1* to 2* transition player specifically) are not given a chance in these events (Excluding the last 2 events because the lack of RB made many low roster players be competitive) that are supposed to be the main play ground for them until they get stronger.

Sandmaker

Okin107 wrote:

I did not mention anywhere that the developers should use arbitrary impossible values for the top rewards. I did mention in another post that they should use the statistics they have gathered so far to find that balance of points/rewards.

For the current event, if I am 149th, I get one Pun red cover. But if I do not continue to mindlessly milk the nodes every refresh until the end of the event I will just get some ISO (Which is not what PVE is about in theory). While in the progression rewards, if I only want the red Pun cover and I know I cannot go higher, I can fight my way to get the cover and call the event a win and wish myself better luck as I get stronger.

As it currently stands, I am being punished for not being competitive with other players to the very last moment in a game mode that is clearly not meant for this. Keep in mind that players that cannot compete in PVP (1* to 2* transition player specifically) are not given a chance in these events (Excluding the last 2 events because the lack of RB made many low roster players be competitive) that are supposed to be the main play ground for them until they get stronger.

Those values are not arbitrary. Nor are they impossible. I calculated it from the total base value in the nodes and the total number of refreshes. So they are 100% achievable if you just work for it

Who said anything about competition? Just do what I proposed. "Fight your way" to those thresholds, and close the game. The rewards will be delivered in 19 hours to your account. There's no competition in it at all. Don't even check the score board. You will be guaranteed the rewards.

Unknown

Sandmaker wrote:

Okin107 wrote:

I did not mention anywhere that the developers should use arbitrary impossible values for the top rewards. I did mention in another post that they should use the statistics they have gathered so far to find that balance of points/rewards.

For the current event, if I am 149th, I get one Pun red cover. But if I do not continue to mindlessly milk the nodes every refresh until the end of the event I will just get some ISO (Which is not what PVE is about in theory). While in the progression rewards, if I only want the red Pun cover and I know I cannot go higher, I can fight my way to get the cover and call the event a win and wish myself better luck as I get stronger.

As it currently stands, I am being punished for not being competitive with other players to the very last moment in a game mode that is clearly not meant for this. Keep in mind that players that cannot compete in PVP (1* to 2* transition player specifically) are not given a chance in these events (Excluding the last 2 events because the lack of RB made many low roster players be competitive) that are supposed to be the main play ground for them until they get stronger.

Those values are not arbitrary. Nor are they impossible. I calculated it from the total base value in the nodes and the total number of refreshes. So they are 100% achievable if you just work for it

Who said anything about competition? Just do what I proposed. "Fight your way" to those thresholds, and close the game. The rewards will be delivered in 19 hours to your account. There's no competition in it at all. Don't even check the score board. You will be guaranteed the rewards.

How can I reach those points if I do not grind all the nodes at every refresh? And taking into consideration that chars take more than 2hrs to heal back to full and 2hrs is not enough to gain full Health Packs, you cannot simply get to such scores. Not without paying at least, but that is another story.

I get your logic, and you are right. If I reach those results I will have the success you promised more or less. But what you are not taking into account is bracketing. These results are the maximum you can get from this event, however, you do not have to hit the maximum points in every bracket in order to be in top positions. And this is where it hurts most. If you win 1st place in your bracket with 80k points and I win 1st place also in my bracket with 50k points, does this seem fair to you? Do you really have to grind 30k more points than me for that first place?

Progression rewards would ensure us an average threshold of points where everyone will have to equally be able to gain them. No need to feel bad for being in a death bracket anymore. Just focus on that reward go get it the way you want to get it.

Kolence

Sandmaker wrote:

Those values are not arbitrary. Nor are they impossible. I calculated it from the total base value in the nodes and the total number of refreshes. So they are 100% achievable if you just work for it

Who said anything about competition? Just do what I proposed. "Fight your way" to those thresholds, and close the game. The rewards will be delivered in 19 hours to your account. There's no competition in it at all. Don't even check the score board. You will be guaranteed the rewards.

Wait, when you say "total number of refreshes", do you mean playing every 2.5 hours all day and night (or 24 hours a day) for 2, 3 days or however long the event is? Or you've calculated some time for people to sleep and maybe even have some life, beside playing a game?

Unknown

They could 'fix' PVE by totally removing competition rewards. Competition rewards are just something on top to reward people who compete at insane levels. Seems more like a perspective problem than anything else.

The rewards structure does seem pretty balanced. If the bracket has a lot of competition, odds are you'll get your rewards through progression and rubber banding. Otherwise you'll get them through ranking. This 'problem' only affects those who want the top of everything but are out-competed.

Sandmaker

Kolence wrote:

Or you've calculated some time for people to sleep and maybe even have some life, beside playing a game?

I don't understand... are you saying people don't just do this "life" thing in the hour and a half between each refresh?

atomzed

Okin107 wrote:

[
How can I reach those points if I do not grind all the nodes at every refresh? And taking into consideration that chars take more than 2hrs to heal back to full and 2hrs is not enough to gain full Health Packs, you cannot simply get to such scores. Not without paying at least, but that is another story.

I get your logic, and you are right. If I reach those results I will have the success you promised more or less. But what you are not taking into account is bracketing. These results are the maximum you can get from this event, however, you do not have to hit the maximum points in every bracket in order to be in top positions. And this is where it hurts most. If you win 1st place in your bracket with 80k points and I win 1st place also in my bracket with 50k points, does this seem fair to you? Do you really have to grind 30k more points than me for that first place?

Progression rewards would ensure us an average threshold of points where everyone will have to equally be able to gain them. No need to feel bad for being in a death bracket anymore. Just focus on that reward go get it the way you want to get it.

You missed sand point totally.

The reason why they cap the "prestigious" covers at a certain percentages, is because they want to keep it as chase items.

The principle will not change even if they convert to a pure profession reward system.

What sand has been trying to illustrate, is that if you change to a pure progression reward system, the points required will increased. This is to ensure that the covers remain chasy.

I will even argue that with the current bracket system, sometimes you can get lucky, and get into an easier bracket. And win a cover at much lower scores.

So for those who wants to petition a change, they should he arguing for a greater proportion of covers being given, instead of complaining about the system. Cos as long as they keep to the principle of top 1% getting 3 covers (and other corresponding percentage for other tiers), it will remain as it is.

simonsez

Nellyson wrote:

I remember one event, I think it was Falcon covers, but I had over 80K+ and took somewhere in the 20-50 region. My buddy, who was obviously in a different bracket had about 35-45K, but took first.

There's no way in hell you two joined your brackets at the same time. The only way this scenario is even remotely possible, is if it was a 9 day event and he skipped the first 3 subs and started playing on the last day.

Nellyson wrote:

I say this because it was incredibly infuriating that I had about a 10% chance of getting all 3 Colossus covers. Shouldn't that be a 100% chance?

No! But I'm glad one of you "PvE shouldn't be competitive" people finally confirmed what I've always been assuming... you want to turn it into something like an "everyone gets a trophy" little league.

atomzed

"Everyone gets a trophy" little league how apt a description. People fail to understand that a trophy is valuable because it's hard to obtain. When everyone has it, the value drops.

Also, now that the progression reward is so easy to get now, it's almost a 3* cover for anyone who participated.