PVP Guide
Comments
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rocketh wrote:Last Hulk PvP I noticed something -
I usually run PvP events with lv.94 OBW/Ares + lv.60 featured character. Most events, I easily managed to stay at 600+ points.
Having obtained some covers for my Hulk, I decided to level him to 102. Event boosted him to lv.160 or so.
Problem is, from 500 pts onward I started being matched with *** teams, levels ranging from 120 to 150. In Hulk's case, his boost took him to 200 even.
I had a really hard time finding good matches, and got hit hard by high level teams.
My impression is that your team average level determines your opponents' average level.
The moment I started using a lv.100 character, my team average caused me to step into *** territory, screwing me.
Has this been discussed already?
Sort of.
I did the same thing and didn't really notice the 3*s until the usual point, which is for me in the mid 600s. I think what you're seeing is the opponents the game is choosing for you when it's 2* opponents start getting limited. Tanking might help, but it might not. I'm afraid your best option is probably making liberal use of "skip." It sucks, I know...
Addendum - I do believe that you shouldn't level your 3*s until they are noticably better than your 2*s, and I wouldn't do that until they soft cap in the 120s. There is also an argument that scaling is based on your highest level character, for PVE I beleive this is very likely, so you may want to hold off on leveling any until you can level more than one.
Speaking for myself, I have two characters who are max covers - Hulk and the Falcon, two more at 12 covers (Psylocke and Human Torch,) and one at 11 (CMags.) I pushed Hulk up to 153 first, then got HT up there, then Psylocke. This last event got me the last two covers of black I needed for the Hulk, but I decided I'm not going to max him at 166 until I can max at least one more character, probably more than one since the Hulk is hardly top tier.0 -
rocketh wrote:Last Hulk PvP I noticed something -
I usually run PvP events with lv.94 OBW/Ares + lv.60 featured character. Most events, I easily managed to stay at 600+ points.
Having obtained some covers for my Hulk, I decided to level him to 102. Event boosted him to lv.160 or so.
Problem is, from 500 pts onward I started being matched with *** teams, levels ranging from 120 to 150. In Hulk's case, his boost took him to 200 even.
I had a really hard time finding good matches, and got hit hard by high level teams.
My impression is that your team average level determines your opponents' average level.
The moment I started using a lv.100 character, my team average caused me to step into *** territory, screwing me.
Has this been discussed already?
Actually I had a lvl 60 Hulk this event and I usually use Stormneto. Same as you I can hit 550-600 and secure that top 100 for the cover. However in this event, even though my Hulk was "normal", I was being matched with teams that had a 2* team but with a 100+ lvl Hulk. Most of the cases I would take down all and then Hulk would smash me into a loss.
I think this was one of the most frustrating PVPs ever. Even my alliance people that usually go 1300+ they found it very hard to do so here. I think it was the fact that so many people now have Hulk covers and we all know what a buffed Hulk can do...0 -
The problem comes from having : one tanky character (or uber-tanky, in Hulk's case) + AI random TeamUps
I can plan ahead against opponents and powers I'm aware of. Like, taking out CStorm first, then Wolverine and then moving to Hulk.
But Hulk has just so many Hit points it takes me a lot of turns to down him... And so those turns become a frustrating roulette because there's no clue on which TU he'll be using. Rage of the Panther, Demolition, Supernova, you name it.
So from now on I'll be less inclined in grinding PvP events featuring boosted, tanky characters I guess.
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On the topic of levelling *** characters, guess I just shoot myself in the foot then.0 -
rocketh wrote:The problem comes from having : one tanky character (or uber-tanky, in Hulk's case) + AI random TeamUps
I can plan ahead against opponents and powers I'm aware of. Like, taking out CStorm first, then Wolverine and then moving to Hulk.
But Hulk has just so many Hit points it takes me a lot of turns to down him... And so those turns become a frustrating roulette because there's no clue on which TU he'll be using. Rage of the Panther, Demolition, Supernova, you name it.
So from now on I'll be less inclined in grinding PvP events featuring boosted, tanky characters I guess.
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On the topic of levelling *** characters, guess I just shoot myself in the foot then.
I doubt it. As I said, I did pretty much the exact same thing and didn't notice my PVPs getting particularly harder. I wouldn't boost him too much without having other characters with him, but I don't think you've screwed yourself. Keep in mind there are a lot of variables here - time of play, how many people play, how intensely they play, and so on. See how bad it is next PVP and if it stays bad, tank.
I think the way to really screw yourself is to level an under-covered character well past the rest of your roster. X-Force Wolverine comes to mind - a 3/1/1 build is pretty eeeh and goes way past anything else in level. But that will probably only screw you for PVE, as far as I know your MMR is chiefly based on wins and losses + time - possibly modified by the level of who you use.
On another forum, someone stated that they level their characters together. This seems pretty sound -- at least for not shooting yourself in the foot for PVE. I got another Red for Psylocke, which puts her at a sub-optimal max (4/5/4,) and have bought her up to 153. I also got my 12th cover for CMags (3/5/4,) and am in the process of bringing him up to 153. I think I'm going to let all my character sit at 153 until I have maxed at least 3, then bring all 3 up two levels at a time. This is going to take a while, particularly for the Iso, but that's fine. Anyway, I'd recommend something similar for you - get more of your 3*s up until to the low 100s before bringing the Hulk up more.0 -
I made some edittng today - I went over what I did in the red section. Giving it a bump to keep it on the first page. As usual, any suggestions are welcome, and feel free to ask questions.0
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I have a question for the community at large - I want a little more information before I make another update with something interesting I've learned.
On another one of the topics a person gave a suggestion for what to do when you seem to be caught in a rut of characters when using "skip." This person said close out the game, then open it again. Of course, you shouldn't do this when you want the same characters on your nodes (keeping the seed teams around, for instance,) but it seemed like a useful thing to do when I get a whole run of 15-20 point characters at the high level of PVP, so I tried it.
It does seem to work very well. It doesn't change who is on top of the nodes, of course, but you start seeing different characters with the first "skip." My theory on why this works is that while the game requires a constant internet connection, it doesn't always talk to the game servers and prefers to remain semi-autonomous. For example, if my internet goes out while I'm in the middle of a combat (I have a very old cable modem that needs to be reset sometimes,) I don't get the error until I'm actually finished with the combat and the game tries to access the servers with my new points, character status, etc.
So to expand on this, my theory is that the game cheats a bit when it sets up your fights on a node, and loads a stack. When you hit "skip" it accesses characters from that stack. It does not refresh that stack as often as it should, so sometimes you end up seeing the same characters over and over again.
I'm definitely going to add this to the guide, but I'd be interested to know what other people think, and other people's experiences.0 -
It definitely does load a "stack" that refreshes when you close and re-load the program. That's how people were able to game the system in the 4* Thor lightning rounds - by loading the LR at the very beginning of the round they guaranteed that their “stack” would have only seed teams in it, and by keeping the program open until the end of the round, they (okay, we) were able to play up to the closing bell while doing nothing but fighting Pryomantic and his friends. But if you closed the game and loaded it up again, suddenly your “stack” would have real players in it, and your free ride ended.
I have no idea how that interacts with the limited set of real people you might see when skipping, though.0 -
CrookedKnight wrote:It definitely does load a "stack" that refreshes when you close and re-load the program. That's how people were able to game the system in the 4* Thor lightning rounds - by loading the LR at the very beginning of the round they guaranteed that their “stack” would have only seed teams in it, and by keeping the program open until the end of the round, they (okay, we) were able to play up to the closing bell while doing nothing but fighting Pryomantic and his friends. But if you closed the game and loaded it up again, suddenly your “stack” would have real players in it, and your free ride ended.
I have no idea how that interacts with the limited set of real people you might see when skipping, though.
I've done the reverse, now. I get caught up in these runs of normal teams that are all woth 18-22 points when I'm still very high up on the progression. In the past I've gone so far as rant at the screen. "I'm ranked 150, clearly I'm way too high for me to see someone with a lot of points." I do find that closing the game and re-opening it helps a lot.0 -
Great guide, any info on how your defensive team uses/equips teamups?0
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raisinbman wrote:Great guide, any info on how your defensive team uses/equips teamups?
As far as I can tell, the AI chooses random Team-Ups in PVP. In PVE it is related to the theme (it was at first, then it wasn't, now I think it is again,) but for PVP it's pretty much completely random from its set list. It is generally scaled to the opposing team, possibly a bit low.
Honestly, now that they're giving us the TU information at the start, I'm surprised at how low level they are.0 -
GrimSkald wrote:I did a little editting on this today - broke out a few things into sections more as this is so damn long, and corrected a misconception I had (the "half again" boost rounds the level up, not down. Odd levels are better.)
Seriously, though, any comments?
Sniping is hitting somebody when you know their shields are down and having them lose points. Note you technically will lose 2 to 3 points you could have earned as well when you snipe.
Usually, sniping has to be done fast, on full boost and you only have a small window of time to do it of about 1 to 6 minutes. It will most likely cost you some iso and HP due to the boost.
There are 2 very good reasons to snipe.
1. Your alliance is in competition for a placing with a member of another alliance for a placing.
2. You are in "serious" competition with that particular person in a bracket and you have a "serious" chance to get a cover or prize if you can over take them.
Some good reasons to snipe.
1. You are hitting somebody you know who is in "serious" competition in a bracket of an alliance member and you want to help them out.
2. You are hitting somebody who is targeting you and/or other alliance members and you hope by hitting them they will stop.
Ok reason to snipe.
1. They are a "retal" and sniped you first and you want to teach them a lesson.
Some reasons to snipe that may or may not be that good.
1. You are doing it for the rush and the chance to inflict anguish on somebody in a game.
2. They sniped you in the past and you want revenge.
3. They bounced off your shields and you want revenge because you think they were trying to snipe you.
4. Somebody tells you to do it without a good reason. Remember you are a hero not a sheep to be manipulated.
Why do you lose 2-3 points if you snipe somebody?
The person you hit is most likely hitting somebody else. If they lose points, their total goes down. If you hit them after they have won their match and shielded you will actually gain more points. If you hit them before they hit their target, you won't enjoy the fruits of their victory, and that is 2 to 3 points you could have had. Most people will immediately shield after they notice a hit. That actually might cost your more point. If you have somebody in your queued up node, and you wait a bit before hitting them, you can gain points because they may hit 2 to 3 people as they climb. So it may seem fun to snipe somebody, it makes more sense to grab somebody in a queue and save their name for later as you collect targets for your nodes. This "non-sniping" strategy can net you 10 to 15 points per target hit during a shield hop.
Disadvantages of sniping.
1. You get placed in somebodies node as a retal. This means they can easily set up to hit you when they feel like it. This also means you can get sniped right back.
2. Sniping requires speed, and that normally requires boosting. You are most likely spending about 200 ISO and 30 Hp to snipe somebody. That can add up over time.
3. If you know you are trying to do something fast, you might miss something and make a mistake. You may lose the match or take more damage because of this.
4. Sniping does not make you friends. Sooner or later, the people you snipe will start to recognize your name. They will see you on their queued up node and attack. Although there are tons of people who play this game, people tend to play at the same time and will of course run into other people who do the same thing. Some players become so hated, they will get their name changed.
5. As mentioned before you normally, make more points hitting somebody who is shielded. Sniped targets yield less points, and if a swarm of people are sniping a target, your high value points can disappear.
I hope this helps clarifies sniping and its advantages and disadvantages.0 -
GrimSkald wrote:On another one of the topics a person gave a suggestion for what to do when you seem to be caught in a rut of characters when using "skip." This person said close out the game, then open it again. Of course, you shouldn't do this when you want the same characters on your nodes (keeping the seed teams around, for instance,) but it seemed like a useful thing to do when I get a whole run of 15-20 point characters at the high level of PVP, so I tried it...
So to expand on this, my theory is that the game cheats a bit when it sets up your fights on a node, and loads a stack. When you hit "skip" it accesses characters from that stack. It does not refresh that stack as often as it should, so sometimes you end up seeing the same characters over and over again.
I'm definitely going to add this to the guide, but I'd be interested to know what other people think, and other people's experiences.
MMR Hell:
This refers to endlessly being matched up against a small handful of opponents pretty much regardless of how many times you skip in your nodes. During MMR Hell, these opponents are generally worth less than 25 points and/or have far superior team strength (else people wouldn't complain about it ) This happens because the filtering algorithms that determine your opponent pool have collapsed your ad-hoc opponent pool to a relatively tiny number based on your performance metrics at that moment, everyone else's metrics, and its own benchmarks. Escaping MMR Hell is generally not difficult -- what you typically need to do is change your PVP score by ~60-100 points either way. However, several factors discourage players from escaping MMR Hell:
- Players don't like losing, which discourages dropping your score to escape MMR Hell. Dropping your score also means you'll need to get those points back, and there's no guarantee you won't be stuck right back in MMR Hell when you do get those points back.
- Players are often matched up against opponents worth less than 25 points. This is a two-fold problem: losing such a fight will incur a score penalty that cannot be regained with a single subsequent victory, and winning such a fight will give your opponent a retaliation node that's worth more than 25 points, encouraging them to hit you for more points than you gained against them. This means that [victory] + [eventual opponent retaliation] = net point loss.
- Players are sometimes matched up against opponents that are, for lack of a more expressive word, scary. You likely can win against L200+ X-Force with L94 CStorm + MN Mags if you use boosts and have a very favorable board. But, it's probably going to hurt a lot, and that X-Force will casually obliterate you on the retal, sometimes just to prove a point.
For many 3* players, there's a zone at around 600 points in a typical PVP which acts like a general MMR Hell. I call it Point Purgatory. Essentially, what happens is that, roughly in the 600-700 score range, quite a few players see their opponent point values drop from 23-30 points to ~17-23 points no matter the number of skips. Players end up needing to muscle through those low-value fights just to break past 700 (or 750, if you're unlucky) and see worthwhile fights again. This is likely due to one of several "invisible switches" built into the PVP matchmaking framework, likely as an anti-tanking measure. Essentially, at around 700 points, your opponent pool gets cracked wide open. If, previously, pretty much only fellow L120 teams could see you, now top-end triple-L166 teams can suddenly see you, and they will hit you for easy points. This likely creates a dense boundary layer of players who are pummeled once they venture past 700, yet are relatively safe below, which stabilizes their scores in the 500-650 range until the last-hour feeding frenzy. This overly dense boundary layer, in turn, creates Point Purgatory, because most teams above 700 are essentially invisible until you trip that switch.
Node "stacks":
Some of this, you've covered earlier, but I'm too lazy to just pick out the parts that need more clarification , so I'll just provide an overview of stacks.
The very first time you open an event page (with the introductory popup and everything), the game client (i.e. the MPQ app on your device) asks the server for a "stack" of opponents in each node that's maybe 4-5 names deep. These "stacks" are stored in local memory. Your nodes will continue to have those same stacks unless you skip through them or your MPQ client somehow loses that data. Thus, even after a couple of skips in a node, your "new" opponent could've actually been retrieved from the server hours ago -- whenever the game client last needed a new stack for that particular node.
This is why many people suggest opening the event page of a new PVP immediately when it appears without actually fighting anyone. Each event has its own opponent pool, and human players only enter an event's opponent pool when they've completed a fight in that event (either by winning, wiping out, or retreating). In order to inject initial points into an event, MPQ loads up initial node stacks with seed teams. Players want to fight seed teams. They're generally so puny that they're basically free points, and everyone likes free points. However, it's not necessary to fight them immediately, since merely opening the event page triggers the data pull that loaded up an opponent stack on each node. As long as that stack data isn't wiped (either by an app crash or closure), the teams that were queued the last time you triggered a data pull will still be in (and "behind") your nodes. Thus, opening an event at the beginning but not fighting anyone yet gives you the best of both worlds: a handful of seed teams for an easy 100 points, and the freedom to choose your own entry time if you care about bracketing.
This pull-a-whole-stack-at-a-time system also affects your node behavior after you climbed a few hundred points. Let's say you finished a climb to 400 points several hours ago, and now you're ready to make another push. As long as you don't skip a single node several times and you don't get an incoming attack which overwrites a node, the opponents that were previously queued in your node stacks will stay in your node stacks. This is sometimes fairly useful, since opponent matchups seem to be based, in part, on your relative scores. At "normal" point levels, you tend to get matched up against people whose scores are similar to your own. However, if the opponents already in your node stacks climbed a few hundred points in the hours after you queued them, you'll be able to fight opponents that are simultaneously more valuable to you and less likely to retaliate against you, since you're now less valuable to them.0 -
whitecat31 wrote:GrimSkald wrote:I did a little editting on this today - broke out a few things into sections more as this is so damn long, and corrected a misconception I had (the "half again" boost rounds the level up, not down. Odd levels are better.)
Seriously, though, any comments?
Sniping is hitting somebody when you know their shields are down and having them lose points. Note you technically will lose 2 to 3 points you could have earned as well when you snipe.
....
I hope this helps clarifies sniping and its advantages and disadvantages.
This strikes me as an advanced technique, and I think it would add too much bulk to the guide. I suspect that this is not the sort of thing that most people do - certainly I don't.
Your write up is pretty good, though. I have a question for you - if this player is not in your bracket and either in the top 10, or within 10 ranks of you, how can you tell when they are shielded or not?0 -
HailMary wrote:To expand on this a bit, you're essentially talking about two separate phenomena in the game: MMR Hell and node "stacks."
MMR Hell:
This refers to endlessly being matched up against a small handful of opponents pretty much regardless of how many times you skip in your nodes.
...
Node "stacks":
Some of this, you've covered earlier, but I'm too lazy to just pick out the parts that need more clarification , so I'll just provide an overview of stacks.
...
Great explanation, thanks! This definitely fits with my own experiences, particularly the "MMR Hell." I do find closing out the app and re-entering it does help, but there definitely is a point where I have a difficult time finding a team I can take for over 20 points. The big question is how to fit this into the basic guide without adding too much space.
I can add more headers, perhaps. Maybe a section for advanced information. Size isn't a terrible thing if it's more digestible.0 -
GrimSkald wrote:This strikes me as an advanced technique, and I think it would add too much bulk to the guide. I suspect that this is not the sort of thing that most people do - certainly I don't.
Your write up is pretty good, though. I have a question for you - if this player is not in your bracket and either in the top 10, or within 10 ranks of you, how can you tell when they are shielded or not?
We usually know who is in our nodes because we will skip frequently to find a high value target. It will of course cost you some ISO. ( Snipers will spend a lot of ISO.)
For the best economic use of HP, it is better to spend the ISO to queue somebody up on your node worth more to hit when you unshield. So even non snipers will skip, just not as much.
After a while you will recognize the names that are stuck in your queue in your node pool.
When a new name pops up, it means they have most likely broken their shield.
They are now a target to hit.
You have three choices at that time.
1. Break your shields, launch your attack at full boost, and attack in an attempt to snipe.
2. Store the person on your node to hit later.
3. Skip them. You will have your reasons. (Friends; you don't want the retal, you know/think they dropped their shields by accident and you consider it dishonorable to hit them, etc.)
The most economical use of your HP in the shield jump is to skip around using ISO until you have three high value nodes lined up. You would then unshield, and try to hit as many of them as possible, before your internal clock says you should shield again. Frequently, the score you see on the node target is not the actual value. If the people you q'd up, hit their intended targets and returned to their shields safely, you will get a nice surprise of extra points.
So a sniper might get 30 to 50 points for a snipe in their shield hop, but a person who hits three high value nodes, might get three times as much.0 -
Great guide! I'm a pretty new player with about 25 days played.
I used to be able to get top 100 in pvp events with about 200-250 points. Now I can score about 300 points, but that's only good enough to place around 300-400. Is it harder now because of my MMR? Or is it because everyone is after the Blade rewards?
My squad is mostly developing 2* characters; I've got my highest 3 in the 55-70 range and a few 3* covers but none are really useable. I'd like to be able to hit higher points in the pvp events to reach the HP rewards and unlock more roster slots. What kind of squad would I need to be able to hit 400, 500, or 600 points?0 -
haysoy wrote:Great guide! I'm a pretty new player with about 25 days played.
I used to be able to get top 100 in pvp events with about 200-250 points. Now I can score about 300 points, but that's only good enough to place around 300-400. Is it harder now because of my MMR? Or is it because everyone is after the Blade rewards?haysoy wrote:My squad is mostly developing 2* characters; I've got my highest 3 in the 55-70 range and a few 3* covers but none are really useable. I'd like to be able to hit higher points in the pvp events to reach the HP rewards and unlock more roster slots. What kind of squad would I need to be able to hit 400, 500, or 600 points?0 -
haysoy wrote:I used to be able to get top 100 in pvp events with about 200-250 points. Now I can score about 300 points, but that's only good enough to place around 300-400. Is it harder now because of my MMR? Or is it because everyone is after the Blade rewards?
It's amazingly frustrating, since you basically end up sort of "spending" your first few "free" good ranks on PvP to get a hodge-podge of 3* covers... and then you're suddenly thrust into a situation where you can not ever get any more. Leaving you with lots of used up roster slots... and nothing else.
Apparently this tends to stable out a bit, as others have mentioned, once you get a bit further into the 2* transition - and the 600 point "wall" is out there. But for new players, it's worth noting that you will probably rank in the top 100-ish in PvP several times without too much trouble, and then suddenly never be able to do it again - so choose your battles wisely!0 -
Here are some tips I have learned for newer players:
- You'll find it relatively easy to place in the top 100 rank (one 3* cover) for about half a dozen events, maybe as high as 10 events if you're really careful. DON'T take this for granted and DON'T waste these opportunities! ONLY go after covers for 3* characters that you 1) already have a few of, or 2) read in this forum that they are pretty good.
- Similarly, you'll find it particularly easy to place in the top 400 (one 2* cover) probably a dozen times or so at first. This also goes away with time and wins, so don't even chase 2*s unless they are especially good. You'll probably get 100x more 2* covers than 3*s over the course of your time playing this game - just like you'll get ~1000x more 1*s than 2*s - so your 2* characters will eventually get better with time. 3* covers are so rare you will likely not improve simply with time - or at least the time required is so great you won't care (years).
- MMR goes up and down with wins and losses, but the actual effects seem to jump in lumps from time to time. Possibly this is from something like the end of season reckoning, or maybe their internal processes aren't that quick to update things. Or maybe the plateaus are bigger than we think. But you can suddenly find yourself with no reasonable opponents and the only answer is that you've hit another MMR plateau. Similarly, if you are trying to lower your MMR, it will probably seem like nothing is happening for a long time, and then all of a sudden it will be easier.
- Tanking vs. not playing: no one is sure which is better for lowering your MMR, but sporadic reports indicate that both help. Just like you shouldn't waste your first few "wins" on worthless covers, you should probably not even play if the reward covers aren't worth something to you, so that you can lower your MMR by not playing in an event.
- Progression is impossible, so don't sweat it. You'll likely never even break 300 for a long, long while - except for those first few times when you magically are able to place in the top 100. But just as MMR destroys your ability to rank, so too it will destroy your ability to get progression rewards. Sadly, by the time you're actually able to get 500 points (one 2* cover) or 1600 points in the PvP simulator (one 2* cover), you very likely will not need any more 2* covers.
- To a much lesser extent than PvE - since brackets are smaller - the bracket you get placed in will make a huge difference in your ability to rank. Generally it seems like MMR affects your bracket to a large amount, but timing also helps. NEVER join a PvP event in the first 24 hours, and you probably shouldn't join it in the next 24, either.
- 99% of all PvP activity seems to happen in the last few hours, especially the last hour. Don't be surprised if you are rank 40 with 30 minutes remaining, quit, and find out that you did not place in the top 100. In fact, it is unlikely that you will. DON'T try hard on PvP events unless you KNOW you can play in the last hour! In fact, you probably shouldn't even play at all, since you don't want to boost your MMR unnecessarily. (Fortunately the new "change your time" system should help make this easier.)0 -
I made a few updates - nothing major but I wanted to add the bit about clearing your stacks. I also wanted to update the rewards.0
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