Upcoming Change: Character Level Shift

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Comments

  • I'm in agreement with killerkoala. I'm confused as to how this is going to change anything or make a character more useful. If they raised the starting level, but left the level cap alone, that makes sense, but since everything is just raised, I don't see the difference or how this will help make characters more useful. the difference in levels between the starting and the max levels for three stars are exactly the same, 126. This might help if my 3* chars are going against 2* chars, but MMR makes sure that doesn't happen. Maybe I'm missing something in the explanation, so if I'm missing something, can someone explain how this is going to help the community?
  • It means 1* players using the buffed loaner character mistakenly think they are more useful than they really are.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Seems like a strange change. The only reason I can imagine doing this is for MMR purposes, that giving bigger numbers to the 3X141 teams makes it easier for them to be quarantined from the guys with a mix of 85 and various level 3*s.
    From my experience, MM doesn't work like that. My cumulative levels often add up to 350 or less and I still have to fight maxed out teams (212+141+141) more than half the time.

    MMR obviously still has to take level in some way or you'd be randomly seeing 1* rosters if level is not a factor at all. Let me illustrate what I'm thinking. We know from PvP a level 125 2* is quite competitive, if not better, than most level 141 3*. So it stands to reason that a level 85 2* is quite competitive with the average level 100 3*. But this makes MMR much harder to work with, because you can't say 'don't match up people with a 15 level advantage' if it turns out that a level 100 3* is no stronger than a level 85 2*. Now with this change, we'd instead have a level 94 2* and a level 125 3*. Now the difference is bigger and it's probably safe to assume a level 125 3* should beat a level 94 2*, so we can easily prevent this matchup from ever occuring in the first place.

    Now of course you can say whoever was level 84 at 3* before is going to be level 109 in this new system and you got the same issue again, but then this 3* will likely be missing at least one more cover compared to a previously level 100 3*, so he probably won't be used since missing covers greatly weakens the character and at that point if the player is comfortable using a high level low covered character, there's no point to stop it. This seems to push the previous boundary case between 2* and 3* into clearly in favor of 3*, and in the process this makes it easier to actually separate them via MMR.
  • mohiomohio Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2014
    I'm in agreement with killerkoala. I'm confused as to how this is going to change anything or make a character more useful. If they raised the starting level, but left the level cap alone, that makes sense, but since everything is just raised, I don't see the difference or how this will help make characters more useful. the difference in levels between the starting and the max levels for three stars are exactly the same, 126. This might help if my 3* chars are going against 2* chars, but MMR makes sure that doesn't happen. Maybe I'm missing something in the explanation, so if I'm missing something, can someone explain how this is going to help the community?
    The only thing I can see is that if you are a 1* player with very little to speak of as far as 2* is concerned, you might put iso into that 2/2/1 3* since it can bring him/her to, not sure exactly, 65 instead of 40. However, it changes little for people with maxed 2* since it will still require a lot of covers (although maybe one fewer than before) and a lot of iso, to bring up a 3* to the level of a max 2*.

    edit: I don't mean to trivialize things getting easier by 1 cover. Sometimes that 1 cover is quite difficult to obtain, so I hope I didn't offend anyone by shrugging that off as "not much of a change".
  • eidehuaeidehua Posts: 521 Critical Contributor
    I do wonder how much 40 levels will scale 4*s. Note there is now an extra 40-25= 15 levels of difference between a 3* and a 4* now.
  • Nonce Equitaur 2Nonce Equitaur 2 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    IceIX wrote:
    Too many painful changes, however well intentioned, isn't generally a good thing for the player base. And Magneto, as we all know, is one of those pegs that's currently sticking up a bit high and is going to cause some pain in coming back down to Earth.

    I'm actually liking the health changes, and the last few tournaments have gone very well for me. I believe OBW/Spidey allowed some amount of swarming in PvP. Now I seem to get attacked less, by a much larger variety of teams. The faster healing for 3* characters is greatly appreciated.

    For Magneto, give players a choice in a forum poll:
    1. Red and Blue increase in cost by 1AP, and his redesign is put off at least 4 months.
    2. We put out his redesign sooner rather than later.

    And no, players wouldn't get to see what the redesign was. As I mention in the Overused characters thread, most game nerfs have been preceded by heavy overuse of a particular character. For example, Ragnarok+CStorm many months ago. Most forumites seem to agree that Magneto is overpowered and deserves a small nerf, but also seem to agree that he isn't being heavily overused.
  • I'm in agreement with killerkoala. I'm confused as to how this is going to change anything or make a character more useful. If they raised the starting level, but left the level cap alone, that makes sense, but since everything is just raised, I don't see the difference or how this will help make characters more useful. the difference in levels between the starting and the max levels for three stars are exactly the same, 126. This might help if my 3* chars are going against 2* chars, but MMR makes sure that doesn't happen. Maybe I'm missing something in the explanation, so if I'm missing something, can someone explain how this is going to help the community?

    I think the main idea is that Featured Champ tourneys buff the required character to 150% of their level. So the higher level your character, the bigger a buff you'll get. (i.e., if I have a level 20 hero, they'll be buffed to 30 - 10 more levels. If my hero is level 50, I'll get 25 extra levels, etc.)

    If the base levels are higher, then the buffs will be larger as a result. So where before I had to invest 51 levels of ISO to get a level 100 buffed character, now I only have to invest 16. So, low-cover/level 3*s become more useful.
  • Nighthawk81Nighthawk81 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    edited June 2014
    I didn't see this anywhere, but if I missed it, feel free to reply with the link. I have 6 or 7 maxed 2* characters. Will these automatically go to lvl 94 with the change or will I have to drop more ISO to lvl up 9 more levels? Obviously, this would be less of a pain than somebody having to lvl from 141 to 166, but the question is still the same.
  • Interesting change.

    When will X-Force get his buff? And are there any characters you can talk about other than the eventual Void and Iron Patriot?

    These new levels are interesting, so that might make a Level Cap tournament even more interesting. The basic idea --- all characters under level 80 (or 60, or 100) can compete. That will give players a reason to bring out their back bench, and also reward transitioning players.

    So ... this block of stats... what sort of health increase and changes to tile damage are we looking at?? Whoever maintains these lists is looking at a huge amount of work updating all the starting and max damages. Oh tinykitty -- that's me!
    Max Tile Damage .... Crit .... Power cost ....... Max HP .. Namelink to stats (link to discussion) .. env
    70/09/62/55/10/09 - 3.5 - 12/__/10/12/__/__ - 8162 - [goto=nickfury4]Nick Fury[/goto] (Director of SHIELD) 4
    70/10/62/09/55/09 - 3.0 - 19/__/14/__/12/__ - 6996 - [goto=invisible4]Invisible Woman[/goto] (Classic) 4
    55/62/10/09/70/09 - 4.0 - 10/15/__/__/15/__ - 9328 - [goto=wolverine4]Wolverine[/goto] (X-Force)

    67/12/60/11/10/52 - 3.5 - _9/__/_8/__/__/12 - 7250 - [goto=blackpanther3]Black Panther[/goto] (Man Without Fear) 4
    11/12/60/67/10/52 - 4.0 - __/12/__/11/15/__ - 5075 - [goto=blackwidow3]Black Widow[/goto] (Grey Suit) 4
    67/60/52/10/11/12 - 3.0 - 19/11/12/__/__/__ - 7250 - [goto=captainamerica3]Captain America[/goto] (Steve Rogers)
    08/09/09/52/67/60 - 4.0 - __/__/_5/PA/__/PA - 7250 - [goto=daken3]Daken[/goto] (Classic)
    10/52/60/67/11/12 - 3.5 - __/_7/_7/11/__/__ - 5800 - [goto=daredevil3]Daredevil[/goto] (Modern)
    09/09/53/41/10/47 - 3.0 - __/__/_9/__/__/12 - 5440 - [goto=doctordoom3]Doctor Doom[/goto] (Classic)
    67/12/52/60/11/10 - 3.0 - PA/__/PA/12/__/__ - 5075 - [goto=falcon3]Falcon[/goto] (Mighty Avengers)
    12/67/11/10/52/60 - 3.0 - __/_8/__/__/_5/10 - 5075 - [goto=humantorch3]Human Torch[/goto] (Classic)
    60/67/52/12/11/10 - 3.5 - 14/13/20/__/__/__ - 7250 - [goto=ironman3]Iron Man[/goto] (Model 40)
    10/09/11/57/44/51 - 3.0 - __/__/__/_5/__/11 - 4148 - [goto=loki3]Loki[/goto] (Dark Reign)
    52/60/67/10/11/12 - 3.2 - __/_2/_5/10/__/__ - 5800 - [goto=magneto3]Magneto[/goto] (Classic)
    10/67/60/10/10/52 - 3.8 - __/_8/10/__/__/_6 - 5800 - [goto=psylocke3]Psylocke[/goto] (Classic)
    10/51/10/11/51/11 - 3.0 - __/_6/__/__/10/__ - 7111 - [goto=ragnarok3]Ragnarok[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    67/12/52/60/11/10 - 3.0 - 12/__/_5/PA/__/__ - 5800 - [goto=spiderman3]Spider-Man[/goto] (Classic) 4
    52/67/12/10/60/11 - 3.0 - _8/11/__/__/_7/__ - 8700 - [goto=sentry3]Sentry[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    12/60/67/11/52/10 - 3.0 - __/_9/_9/__/12/__ - 8700 - [goto=shehulk3]She Hulk[/goto] (Modern)
    11/60/10/12/67/52 - 3.5 - __/_9/__/__/10/_9 - 4350 - [goto=storm3]Storm[/goto] (Mohawk)
    67/12/60/11/10/52 - 4.5 - 14/__/PA/__/__/_9 - 4350 - [goto=thehood3]The Hood[/goto] (Classic)
    11/60/12/10/67/52 - 3.0 - __/14/__/__/10/PA - 9788 - [goto=thehulk3]The Hulk[/goto] (Indestructible)
    10/52/11/12/60/67 - 4.0 - __/_8/__/__/_8/_7 - 5800 - [goto=thepunisher3]The Punisher[/goto] (Dark Reign) 4
    60/67/11/10/52/12 - 3.5 - 12/_8/__/__/14/__ - 8700 - [goto=thor3]Thor[/goto] (Modern)
    52/60/12/11/67/10 - 4.0 - PA/14/__/__/_9/__ - 5800 - [goto=wolverine3]Wolverine[/goto] (Patch)

    39/45/09/11/50/10 - 3.0 - 10/10/__/__/_5/__ - 5340 - [goto=ares2]Ares[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    10/11/45/50/09/39 - 4.0 - __/__/11/_8/__/PA - 3315 - [goto=blackwidow2]Black Widow[/goto] (Original)
    09/08/09/41/32/37 - 4.5 - __/__/__/PA/__/16 - 2190 - [goto=bullseye2]Bullseye[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    50/45/39/09/10/11 - 3.0 - 19/11/12/__/__/__ - 4450 - [goto=captainamerica2]Captain America[/goto] (Modern)
    08/09/09/32/41/37 - 4.0 - __/__/__/PA/__/PA - 2920 - [goto=daken2]Daken[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    11/39/45/50/09/10 - 4.5 - __/10/10/PA/__/__ - 2670 - [goto=hawkeye2]Hawkeye[/goto] (Modern)
    11/39/50/45/09/10 - 3.2 - __/14/13/_9/__/__ - 3560 - [goto=magneto2]Magneto[/goto] (Marvel NOW!)
    09/45/11/50/10/39 - 3.0 - __/11/__/_5/__/17 - 4450 - [goto=moonstone2]Moonstone[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    39/11/45/50/10/09 - 3.0 - _7/__/_9/13/__/__ - 3560 - [goto=spiderman2]Spider-Man[/goto] (Bag-Man) 4
    39/11/45/09/50/10 - 3.5 - PA/__/11/__/12/__ - 2670 - [goto=storm2]Storm[/goto] (Classic)
    45/50/10/09/39/11 - 3.5 - 12/_8/__/__/14/__ - 5340 - [goto=thor2]Thor[/goto] (Marvel NOW!)
    39/45/09/11/50/10 - 4.0 - PA/12/__/__/_6/__ - 3560 - [goto=wolverine2]Wolverine[/goto] (Astonishing X-Men)

    19/07/22/25/06/07 - 4.0 - __/__/_9/10/__/__ - 1540 - [goto=blackwidow1]Black Widow[/goto] (Modern)
    19/22/07/25/06/07 - 4.5 - __/_7/__/_8/__/__ - 1320 - [goto=hawkeye1]Hawkeye[/goto] (Classic)
    27/31/24/08/07/07 - 3.5 - _8/10/19/__/__/__ - 2700 - [goto=ironman1]Iron Man[/goto] (Model 35)
    07/22/06/07/25/09 - 3.0 - __/_6/__/__/_6/__ - 3520 - [goto=juggernaut1]Juggernaut[/goto] (Classic)
    07/27/07/08/31/24 - 3.5 - __/_5/__/__/10/_9 - 1620 - [goto=storm1]Storm[/goto] (Modern)
    06/07/07/19/25/22 - 3.5 - __/__/__/_7/__/12 - 2640 - [goto=venom1]Venom[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
    06/07/19/25/07/22 - 4.0 - __/__/__/20/__/13 - 1540 - [goto=yelena1]Yelena Belova[/goto] (Dark Avengers)

    it shouldnt be that hard to update with so many of the values changing the same amount, replace should make the update only take like an hour i would say
  • still not happy about true healing!!
  • killerkoalakillerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2014
    still hate "true healing"
  • killerkoalakillerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jdberia wrote:
    I didn't see this anywhere, but if I missed it, feel free to reply with the link. I have 6 or 7 maxed 2* characters. Will these automatically go to lvl 94 with the change or will I have to drop more ISO to lvl up 9 more levels? Obviously, this would be less of a pain than somebody having to lvl from 141 to 166, but the question is still the same.

    Characters will automatically shift the number of current levels equivalent to their rarity. This change will be retroactive, so all characters in the game will automatically be adjusted to the new levels.


    from what i can infer we will retroactively gain these levels so everyone will get a bump.
  • IceIX wrote:
    Too many painful changes, however well intentioned, isn't generally a good thing for the player base. And Magneto, as we all know, is one of those pegs that's currently sticking up a bit high and is going to cause some pain in coming back down to Earth.

    I'm actually liking the health changes, and the last few tournaments have gone very well for me. I believe OBW/Spidey allowed some amount of swarming in PvP. Now I seem to get attacked less, by a much larger variety of teams. The faster healing for 3* characters is greatly appreciated.

    Speaking for myself, I'd far rather rip the band-aid off, as far as Magneto is concerned.

    And while I also noticed I'm not getting attacked as much, I'm finding I'm hugely reliant on my LDaken to play for any reasonable length of time. I'm actually doing far *more* prologue healing than I used to. Before, I would just use OBW during the course of matches. Now I need to pause every now and then to match 3s against juggernaut in the prologue and let LDaken recharge. If it hadn't been for LDaken, I would have capped out at half of the score I got this round.

    All that's really happened is that the required sustainability champions have been switched from OBW and Spidey to LDaken and Patch. At least before, one of those two characters was an obtainable 2*.

  • Speaking for myself, I'd far rather rip the band-aid off, as far as Magneto is concerned.

    And while I also noticed I'm not getting attacked as much, I'm finding I'm hugely reliant on my LDaken to play for any reasonable length of time. I'm actually doing far *more* prologue healing than I used to. Before, I would just use OBW during the course of matches. Now I need to pause every now and then to match 3s against juggernaut in the prologue and let LDaken recharge. If it hadn't been for LDaken, I would have capped out at half of the score I got this round.

    All that's really happened is that the required sustainability champions have been switched from OBW and Spidey to LDaken and Patch. At least before, one of those two characters was an obtainable 2*.

    Daken's dominance goes far beyond his regen. He's too good period since his best ability triggers when the best offensive color in the game is matched by anyone. If Phermone Rage triggered on purple matches instead of green matches, he'd still be every bit as durable but you certainly would have a much harder time using him.
  • IceIX wrote:
    One thing we know from our data is that there are a ton of players with a roster with several 3* characters at their lowest level and handful of maxed out 2* characters. To us, this means that players aren’t getting what they should out of the more powerful characters that they have.
    1. Have you considered that perhaps the reason those players have 3*s sitting doing nothing is that they don't have enough covers or ISO to level them? It is incredibly unlikely that people who play this type of game "cap out" on purpose.
    2. "Players aren't getting what they should out of the more powerful characters" - How does one do this without covers/ISO and/or $?
    The general immediate gameplay fallout that is anticipated from this is that people at the top end of 1* and 2* play that are also fighting "outside of their weight class" against the next rarity up will be met with more powerful enemies. However, the vast majority of these players also have the seeds of the next rarity of characters in their rosters who are generally perfectly feasible but don't have the Iso invested into them. With that next higher rarity showing immediate bonuses and relative strength, this should make those characters that were left sitting on the bench immediately useful in a fight.
    Adding 25 levels to a 1 cover Punisher is not going to all of a sudden make him competitive. Like you said, since the level shift is global, whatever "bonuses" are canceled out by the boost that everyone else has too. I would even argue that the power difference is actually exacerbated by this change, because while the level difference is the same, the level 166 has 2-3 abilities that have scaled but the underleveled 3* only has 1-2. Can you share playtest results that compare level 15 vs level 141 and level 40 vs level 166?
    Or at the very least, those characters will be noticeably more worthwhile to pour resources into to make them contenders and thus allow the player to progress.
    TLDR This change is meant to "gently nudge" players to spend $ on their "suddenly more powerful" characters.
  • Nonce Equitaur 2Nonce Equitaur 2 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pjoe0211 wrote:
    it shouldnt be that hard to update with so many of the values changing the same amount, replace should make the update only take like an hour i would say

    It's the characters starting damages and max damages that I'm worried about updating. What are the new starting damage values for Sentry, and what are his new max damage values? Then I have to do that again for every character. And how can I look those up? The stats on power damages for a level 40 Punisher aren't available anywhere. I don't think I'd be able to do it.

    The only solution I see is for D3 to copy the Skills compendium, and make an updated version in a new thread. Rename the current thread "Characters and Skills Compendium (Before Level Shift)", and give the new thread the title "Characters and Skills Compendium (Includes Level Shift)". Or update the MPQ wiki.
  • DD-The-MightyDD-The-Mighty Age Unconfirmed Posts: 350 Mover and Shaker
    This really doesn't change anything. now we have higher levels of sub optimal characters. People don't level certain 3 stars not soley because they are outclassed by max level whatever stars or because they just cant get them to a high enough level, uts because because they don't have enough covers to make them effective.

    Covers are the biggest factor in the characters usefulness. levels merely control how long they live and how much damage they can do (but only if you have the most optimal set of covers for that power). PVE alone proves that to be true: a fully covered 75 2* can wipe the floor with a 6 cover 3*. especially if its a low HP slower 3*. If there's not going to be a significant positive change in the 3 star cover availability I'm not seeing what this is really supposed to fix.
  • Pjoe0211 wrote:
    it shouldnt be that hard to update with so many of the values changing the same amount, replace should make the update only take like an hour i would say

    It's the characters starting damages and max damages that I'm worried about updating. What are the new starting damage values for Sentry, and what are his new max damage values? Then I have to do that again for every character. And how can I look those up? The stats on power damages for a level 40 Punisher aren't available anywhere. I don't think I'd be able to do it.

    The only solution I see is for D3 to copy the Skills compendium, and make an updated version in a new thread. Rename the current thread "Characters and Skills Compendium (Before Level Shift)", and give the new thread the title "Characters and Skills Compendium (Includes Level Shift)". Or update the MPQ wiki.

    Go to the sandboxers thread and ask one of them to do you a huuuuuuge solid.
  • IceIXIceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,554 Site Admin
    IceIX wrote:
    Additionally, 4* characters are not valued since they are hard to obtain and are only seen as trophies instead of theoretically long term viable characters.

    You do realize that's because IW and xWolvie *aren't* viable characters, right? IW is, according to walkyourpath, a mid-tier character who requires 3 times as much ISO as a 4 star. Wolvie suffers from obscene mana costs and an utterly worthless yellow.

    That said, for the most part this change seems fine. It'd certainly be nice to have my featured character be useful. I have a bunch of three stars sitting at level 50 right now, and I only really use them in featured tourneys when they either cover an unused colour or provide some form of utility. (Like GSBW for green generation) +25 levels, with the 50% buff works out to 112. Not too shabby.

    Of course, level 249 characters aren't going to be a ton of fun to fight either.

    I assume that abilities will scale the same as base stats? How much damage does a 166 Call of the Storm do?

    Also: Why have you guys abandoned all discussion of the healing changes? Is anyone else ever going to come on these forums?
    Yes, we're aware that some of the 4* star characters are sub-optimal. Invisible Woman can definitely be powerful in certain situations though, as seen in a couple of the Sim Challenges.

    Yes, abilities will scale just like other stats. I'm not at work so I don't have access to the build with the changes in, but I remember the damage being in the range of 4400-ish to the main target.

    We haven't abandoned discussion on the healing changes, there's simply nothing for us to actively contribute at the moment. The change is made, we're monitoring that thread (and others) to see what general discussion is like. We're also heavily monitoring associated data streams such as play times and play patterns across multiple tiers of player types to see if the change made the difference we were expecting. We need at the *very* least a full PVE Event to see how player patterns change during the Event to start to get an idea of what worked and what can be iterated on. Trust me, we're listening. I just don't have anything that I can say other than that until we figure out precisely what the change did in total.
  • john1620bjohn1620b Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367
    So...you increase the healing time on characters, and then increase their health to make healing take longer? icon_lol.gif
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