Why Healing is Gone: It's Boring

Maestro145

locked wrote:

Maestro, who did you use then, cStorm/MMN? Thor/Ares? And who covered blue, purple and black? Who did you run to counter enemy oBW?
Just curious. I had a friend playing who was doing fine without oBW early on and only added her to his roster after having several other 2*s. He reported enjoying the game much more with OBW though. He stopped playing for other reasons (like sharding) after Season 1.

i was doing fine without obw, because that time wasn't good obw i played 2* before thor and wolw nerf, even before cstorm nerf. Ares? Never heard!
Thor, wolw and cstorm. Cap and hawkey for pve (they were buffed very often). Noob team, but that time everyone had noob team And i managed to get im40 and gsbw covers very fast to start using them.

Maestro145

HairyDave wrote:

Maestro145 wrote:

I started winning just after i joined 5dv.

And that's clearly a practical solution for everybody. Join a top 10 alliance and you can win too!

If you have an apple, and i have an apple and we share them with each other - each of us still has one apple. If i have in idea, you have an idea and we share - each of us has TWO ideas. This is how our alliances work. We share and teach.

over_clocked

Well, obviously now is a very different time for 2* teams. Try asking around, see for yourself if 2* players find improving their rosters as easy as you think it is. Even with a top 100 alliance.

Maestro145

locked wrote:

Well, obviously now is a very different time for 2* teams. Try asking around, see for yourself if 2* players find improving their rosters as easy as you think it is. Even with a top 100 alliance.

I now 2* players and their play is hard, but i see that only 3* players are crying around.

Unknown

Maestro145 wrote:

I often see, 2* rosters getting top 5 top10 in my bracket. So... it is not too hard, i guess.

Once I was also 2* player and somehow got my first 141, then second... It is not easy, but possible.

It used to be a LOT easier to get 3* rosters so what's your point? That it used to be easier, you took advantage of it being easier, now it's harder, new players are screwed? Not using OBW when it was MASSIVELY easier to progress means less than nothing.

As far as the OP's post goes what a load of tosh. Healing is boring? Well that equates to playing is boring because healing is how most 2* players get to keep playing. The fact 3* players can tank then run through 2* teams to get to 700+ then worry about taking some damage in fights (or not if you use certain combos) DOES NOT mean it's the same for 2* players. Those guys fight 2* rosters and take damage. They then have to decide if they can face ANOTHER roster equivalent to them on the level of damage they've taken or use health packs (which are not exactly infinite as a resource). Once they have used their free health packs then what? Pay or bugger off for 2.5 hours assuming they want to/can play every 2.5 hours.

It's a **** change that says you have 3 options as a 2* player:

1) Arrange your life around MPQ to keep using HPs as they refresh. No single long play session a day for you! What, you have work and a life? Well you're not for us then!
2) Place poorly and never progress. It's all for the joy of the game! I never needed anything better than a 2* anyway!
3) Pay money to make MINIMAL **** PROGRESSION. Ooh I can spend HP on health packs to get a 3* cover which isn't much use unless I already have a load for that hero (unlikely given how diluted 3* rewards are) AND the ISO to level him AND EVEN THEN he'll get hurt and I won't be able to use him much. At least i'll avoid the tedium of not paying!

As for the moronic **** about this being a great leap forward for roster diversity you have literally no clue. The very concept that trash tier 3*s will start getting used to prolong play in PvP with the system of defensive teams shows a PROFOUND lack of understanding of the game. There is still only a point in using a very select set of heroes, in fact you might say it'll SHRINK if anything. Daken and Patch all the way to 700 (once C.Mags is neutered)? Well why not? Any reason? No? OK, i'll put them in then....

Roster diversity is EVEN WORSE at 2* level. Moonstone + Bullseye.... that'll go well.

As for the claim healing is tedious.... what a load of ****. How tedious was firing off OBW's blue in a fight for you? How short is your **** attention span that spending AP on anything other than damage for one turn bored you? Now PROLOGUE healing might be tedious (it is IMO) but this change DOESN'T ONLY EFFECT THAT. No matter what **** IceX was using to justify it.

Gaining An Advantage The ONLY Way

Already be at a point where you don't need to heal. Everyone else can **** off and keep playing with their little 2* heroes (just not very often).

Conclusion

The change is great for me, less annoying 2* teams I have to overtake and they'll even be somewhat boned in PvE! All I need to do is become a sociopath so I don't empathise with them at all, ignore the fact F2P games only work with a broad base of engaged and active non-paying players over whom the paying customers can gain an advantage by paying thus feeling they get value for money AND it would help if I regularly agree with all the **** the devs post.... preferably without thinking too much .

The Future Obstacles

-2* players can't play as much, therefore can't progress and start leaving. We need to get new players and therefore need to advertise the game on forums for gullible people and poor decision makers.
-People who have large, diverse rosters because the flow of HP and ISO used to be MUCH bigger than it is now don't feel like their unfair advantage gives them enough. This leads to stupid forum posts about the Dev's "visions" or "intentaions". I need to find a way of giving a flying **** about the Dev's "visions" and "intentions" because I can't possibly enjoy a game for being fun if I have the slightest inkling that a few ppl I don't know or care about aren't feeling fulfilled.
-Morons will start making lets nerf Daken and Patch (and A.Wolvie and presumably even X-Farce) posts. I must try not to get too pissed off by this. It will be hard. Morons annoy me.... I will try to cope and you all should too!

Maestro145

bonfire01

Obw is very op, but you can use daken and wolw to heal and save hp. Use daken, wolw and then obw,ares in the last game as defense team! Why not? Hard to win - yes, but somehow you have to apply this change to your roster and strategy.

I think that if someone have spidey/obw he shouldn't have advantage healing and saving hp. It feels unfair.

Unknown

Maestro145 wrote:

HairyDave wrote:

Maestro145 wrote:

I started winning just after i joined 5dv.

And that's clearly a practical solution for everybody. Join a top 10 alliance and you can win too!

If you have an apple, and i have an apple and we share them with each other - each of us still has one apple. If i have in idea, you have an idea and we share - each of us has TWO ideas. This is how our alliances work. We share and teach.

I just feel I need to quote this, as it is one of my favourite posts made on any internet forum, ever.

over_clocked

*headdesk*

I think that if someone have patch/mags he shouldn't have advantage having infinite turns and saving hp. It feels unfair.

I think that if someone have lazydaken/patch he shouldn't have advantage self-healing passively and saving hp. It feels unfair.

I think that if someone have hood/mags he shouldn't have advantage taking minimal damage and saving hp. It feels unfair.

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

It's been a long time since I've written a new thread to play Devil's Advocate, but now seems like an appropriate time. Early warning - it's a long one.

Long indeed, and TL;DR is just "the game is boring and not fun".

Any news here? We said that a million times over and over. It's fundamental design is broken in all too many ways and the cited elements (plus many others not mentioned) just follow from those broken principles. (Like having MMR and all the other stuff that punishes performance.)

There were many changes in the name of getting rid of "boring" functionality, and lessen the "grinding". I see one common thing in them: can't recall a single change that would actually lessened bore and lessened grinding either. Most actually increased them. Multiplied.

It beats me how someone who is around for more than half year can believe that the next change will actually move in the other direction. Especially when it pretty obviously does not.

Just consider the blatant **** claim from IceIX lately, that this change is for the sake of more roster diversity and see more diversity in play too. Now you tell me: after the change will you run patch/LD almost exclusively or actually will put mhawkie to use in pvp? There goes your diversity.

The fun in a strategy game comes mostly from choices, options, choosing from them. The more viable options you have the more interesting it is. If you can reach the goal using many different ways then you will be less bored and from outside observe people taking different routes. If instead you take away options and the design forces a single "true way", then it will be just like a robot factory, mostly mindless grinding and nothing else.

Self-service healing, whatever boring, at least provided a way to survive with your play preferences.

If it was replaced moving forward, say I could heal character above 50% health for 50 ISO to full, I'd say WOW and never go healing rounds, ever. But nothing even close is on the table at the moment. Take a moment considering how likely D3 offers something like that. Hm? No, this change has no relation to gameplay or boredom or diversity or whatever, just some pointy-haired excel-sheet guy was promised a small bonus if the cell showing 'health pack sales' goes up by 3% for the next month.

Waht impact on the play or even the same cell sate one month ahead in not a factor.

Maestro145

locked wrote:

*headdesk*

I think that if someone have patch/mags he shouldn't have advantage having infinite turns and saving hp. It feels unfair.

I think that if someone have lazydaken/patch he shouldn't have advantage self-healing passively and saving hp. It feels unfair.

I think that if someone have hood/mags he shouldn't have advantage taking minimal damage and saving hp. It feels unfair.

Yes, some chars are op alone and in combination. You cannot make all at the same level, but when devs buff something or raise the prize - we are happy, when they nerf - we are not and write 100s of threds and comments It is easier just to accept the change and don't be upset if they nerf something op next time

Unknown

Maestro145 wrote:

bonfire01

Obw is very op, but you can use daken and wolw to heal and save hp. Use daken, wolw and then obw,ares in the last game as defense team! Why not? Hard to win - yes, but somehow you have to apply this change to your roster and strategy.

I think that if someone have spidey/obw he shouldn't have advantage healing and saving hp. It feels unfair.

Daken + A.Wolvie is a bad team. It'll lose to the slightest hint of a cascade vs an Ares or a Thor (or an OBW) on defence. A.Wolvie might get out of a fight at half health... can you go into a fight with a half health A.Wolvie and a lvl 69 Daken vs an 85 Ares and Thor? Answer: No.

With the changes to pvp rewards handing 2*s out like candy EVERYONE has an OBW (no-one is suggesting use spidey. I have one, don't use him, why would I? Ever?). So the old arguement of it being haves and have nots is moot. If you don't have an OBW then you are pretty much a 1* to 2* transitioning team and you have low respawn timers and minimal expectations. Removing healing from OBW won't change either fact.

I'm all for finding a way around this change being bad for 2* players in particular. Just there isn't one. If you want to prove me wrong then play consecutive games with 85 a.wolvie + lvl 69 Daken + loner hero in PvP vs 85 OBW + 85 thor/Ares (you may need to tank a bit depending on how you play). Pop it on Youtube and show me how many games you get through without healing. Then i'll post consecutive games of OBW + Ares/Thor vs the same. no breaks in between for either of us. Lets see who does better? Lets see how much of a hit you take for that combo.... lets see how much of a nerf this is for 2* players.

I''ll then post some consecutive games in PvP of me winning and not healing at all with my 3*s. We'll see how long I can go for (or you can take my word for it that it's "as long as I like").

The fact a TERRIBLE decision doesn't effect me and, in fact, largely benefits me is no reason to start saying how great it is. Please refer to my above remark re: sociopaths.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

Nemek wrote:

It's been a long time since I've written a new thread to play Devil's Advocate, but now seems like an appropriate time. Early warning - it's a long one.

Long indeed, and TL;DR is just "the game is boring and not fun".

Any news here? We said that a million times over and over. It's fundamental design is broken in all too many ways and the cited elements (plus many others not mentioned) just follow from those broken principles. (Like having MMR and all the other stuff that punishes performance.)

There were many changes in the name of getting rid of "boring" functionality, and lessen the "grinding". I see one common thing in them: can't recall a single change that would actually lessened bore and lessened grinding either. Most actually increased them. Multiplied.

It beats me how someone who is around for more than half year can believe that the next change will actually move in the other direction. Especially when it pretty obviously does not.


Waht impact on the play or even the same cell sate one month ahead in not a factor.

So grumpy. Lay off the guac man. That salt n fat .is affecting your head. Smashing your head through the screen helps nobody except whomever you buy the new screem from...and maybe a doctor. So breath, hydrate, and here, have a taco.

Unknown

Maestro145 wrote:

i was doing fine without obw, because that time wasn't good obw i played 2* before thor and wolw nerf, even before cstorm nerf. Ares? Never heard!
Thor, wolw and cstorm. Cap and hawkey for pve (they were buffed very often). Noob team, but that time everyone had noob team And i managed to get im40 and gsbw covers very fast to start using them.

Yeah. And since then, how much has the game changed? How many different things have changed? How many new characters? How many new mechanics? How many rounds of funbalancing? Desert doesn't exist any more - remember when you could carry your way to top 50 with Daken+Storm because Desert was a thing? Now it's basically permanently gone from PvP. Not only is it harder to get covers with cheap stuff, there are more heros so the pool is more dilute! It's not as easy to get a dozen patch covers because there's now 41 heroes instead of like 20! And now this? What am I supposed to do?

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Maestro145 wrote:

i was doing fine without obw, because that time wasn't good obw i played 2* before thor and wolw nerf, even before cstorm nerf. Ares? Never heard!
Thor, wolw and cstorm. Cap and hawkey for pve (they were buffed very often). Noob team, but that time everyone had noob team And i managed to get im40 and gsbw covers very fast to start using them.

Yeah. And since then, how much has the game changed? How many different things have changed? How many new characters? How many new mechanics? How many rounds of funbalancing? Desert doesn't exist any more - remember when you could carry your way to top 50 with Daken+Storm because Desert was a thing? Now it's basically permanently gone from PvP. Not only is it harder to get covers with cheap stuff, there are more heros so the pool is more dilute! It's not as easy to get a dozen patch covers because there's now 41 heroes instead of like 20! And now this? What am I supposed to do?

Try to.give them intelligent options that benefit them and us? This forum got the skip tax changed to a bonus. This forum. We can complain and reiterate the same .complaints, or ppl can come up with ideas. I post some options and the only person to .comment in any way is nemek (rather telling....though might just mean nemek was the only one to read through my post due to its substantial girth lol...and lack of an editor for whenever I use my phone....) while everyone else would rather talk about apples and why nemek is stupid or how this change sucks for ppl. I mean, lots of ppl know it sucks. I am sure the devs have SOME inkling it sucks from the 8-9 threads on the topic of how much it sucks. They aren't going to change it for that though. Suckysucky>lose $5.

Ppl said "rag nerf sucks" and they did nothing. Ppl told them they should have given notice and given selling benefits and guess what? The next nerf had these type.of things to some extent. I mentioned skip tax already. Ppl complained about rubberbanding and they mess with it. Given dakan a new ability (sorta did it...good going guys..). The changes aren't always, or even usually, what we want...but constructive criticism has left dents. Cries of "this is bull...undo it?" Not so much.

Just as a thought exercise..I would love for ppl to slog through my post, just so they can tell me my ideas don't help...or maybe they do. if they are bad, it helps everyone to talk about it as then we are progressing and not recessing (spelling is right, I mean acting like kids at recess). If ppl WANTING change cannot be bothered to try to find one, then I don't see what hope there is getting devs to listen. And none of that "its the devs job to..." because its not. There job is to make more .money. sometimes that doesn't directly equate to player approval. So if we want something we have to make the effort too.

Sometimes this forum really makes gir want to explode...

Unknown

Maestro145 wrote:

HairyDave wrote:

Maestro145 wrote:

I started winning just after i joined 5dv.

And that's clearly a practical solution for everybody. Join a top 10 alliance and you can win too!

If you have an apple, and i have an apple and we share them with each other - each of us still has one apple. If i have in idea, you have an idea and we share - each of us has TWO ideas. This is how our alliances work. We share and teach.

And before alliances many shared information and ideas with...well everyone. Infinite apples. Enough for all.
But more and more I see people say, hey stop talking about tanking are you crazy?, or our alliance figured out how to win and my performance improved but we cant risk letting anyone else know about it, or my favorite we aren't cheating we just are organized and play harder than anyone else.

It is this shift that makes me certain alliances were bad for the game, or at least bad for the forum.

Unknown

Healing isn't boring, it's a way for transitional players to make deeper runs (ie. achieve more prizes) in tournaments and compete with players that have deeper rosters.

All removing 'real' healing does is push mid-tier players up against paywalls more often. Which seems to be the running theme with this game for the past 3-4 months. Keep pushing your user against the paywall and they will quit. Simple.

The change will have 0 effect on me. I already have the 8-14 useable characters needed to play for hours at a time. Usually my patience with the game runs out before I ever even use them all.

Unknown

White it's not badly written OP, in the end, it boils down to: my OPINION is that healing (slash - defensive play) is boring.

Problem? I think completely opposite. I love fact that not all characters are nukers. We have Thor or Ares. You collect RGY to nuke enemy with their powers. Now, you need Bck/Blu/Pur to make rainbow. If you had new character that uses this colors and all their powers are also straight nukes, it would make very efficient team. But wouldn't that also be boring? Collect any colour to nuke enemy once you have enough of it. It creates very simple, primitive even gameplay.

My opinion is that having support characters give the game much more depth. A support, meaning their abilities help team by making their normal power stronger (Strike tiles) or protecting over dealing damage (Protect Tiles, CD removal, stun, AP drain or healing). I think having characters filling that role gives much more potential for strategy, rather than going straight for damage every time.

Furthermore, it allows different style of games based on preferences. You think that healing is boring. But for other player, turtling with defense tiles and healing might be slow, but more enjoyable experience (that's how 2* Captain should work, but even he is too slow to get on rolling). It's true, a healing/turtling player will end up going longer and make more matches than fully offensive player, but is that bad? A fully offensive player will require more healthpacks, but in return, he also make quick matches and can spike up very quickly. Laken/Sentry being absolute top of 'trading health for full offensive' team.

Now, we go to second point, people being bored of seeing OBW everywhere in 2* land. You already have posts saying why it's happening - there is no choice. OBW is only character in this spot covering all blind spots of RGY tank, only with healing, only with AP drain, and comes with bonus hidden personal strike tiles when she makes matches of her colour. Other options are simply lacking. In fact, lacking so badly, that after cutting healing from Fishnets, she is still, by far, still strongest support char in that tier. And before you say she still need nerfs, think how much more of them she will need before he gets to Daken/Bullseye level. And when she is down with them... you would just use Thor/Ares. Because at that point, support provides less power than just having raw health and power, even if you are reduced to collecting 3 out of 6 colours. Only colours that matter, because you would also face mirrors.

Now, the main problem with cutting healing out of game, is that it doesn't make any difference for 2* in regards what you see and what you play, only how much. You will still use OBW/Ares on offence. You absolutely will want to leave them on defence, they heal to full anyway when one tries to attack you. Only change is that while currently, it's your own free time that is main stopper in going further, now it's healthpacks that will become limiter. Of course playing field will even out, you should be attacked less too. Fear is, is that with less ways to sustain yourself, health and healthpacks gain value, and people who buy them will get real edge. In the end, it's the goal they are trying to make, and people are afraid (rightly so), is that it strengthens p2w system while not really changing 'boring rosters' problem at all.

TL;DR I don't think healing is problem. I think it's not enough characters with support on right colours are problem, and having more characters with those would allow for far more combos that you will face. Even if you remove OBW from game, you still most likely won't see Moonstone or Bagman played. Instead of focusing on only swinging nerfhammer, buffing the weak links would do far more to diversify playfield.

(Do note I'm indifferent to prologue healing nerf, didn't used it but also didn't care for those to use it. It may be considered dull. But I'm against of completely neutering healing as mechanic which this change makes)

Edit: Toxicadam pretty much summed what I was trying to say in like tenth of length, except of not having deep roster :<.

Unknown

Ok Soenottelling here we go.

1.2 Problem 1. it puts anyone with, say, a couple of heroes over 100 (lets say 115 and 115) and a bunch of 85s in a position where they can't play the hard bracket effectively and in the easy bracket they are no better off than standard 2* rosters. In fact you start putting another invisible hurdle in the way of people. They now see that a 3* doesn't get appreciably better than a 2* til 100 BUT over 100 I can't use it unless i go in a bracket where I am a whipping boy.

Problem 2. You are literally making death brackets. You are putting all the top players in one bracket by design. For what? A shot at a 4*? If it's not fury then i'll pass ty (although I routinely score 1100-1300 depending on my mood so I might be ok in general. No-one liked death brackets so they won't want them. You can't sweaten the deal enough since there will be far too many players missing out on the 3* covers they could have gotten under the current system. Basically punish anyone who has 141s but is not hardcore enough (and willing to spend to shield hop.)

2. The activities bit is nice but they won't do it IMO and it solves little. Just be there for the seed teams and get it all over and done with then play as normal. Or just do it at the start knowing your defensive team is bad but scores too low to matter then play as normal. As for the full health i'll use patch/daken and a loaner, or even better patch, loaner, lvl 1 hero and have him tank everything. It's really impossible to force diverse usage with heroes and mechanics as they stand IMO. PvE heroics probably do it best, for PvP featured heroes do ish but would only truly do so if they go a bigger buff, especially to health.

3. Nothing to add

4. Disagree completely.Spidey is very rarely used so irrelevant hero is irrelevant. OBW does no damage outside strike synergy and no stuns, the fact she has 2 support abilities reflects that. She is overused cause there are ZERO other viable 2* supports and Hood is only viable at a VERY high level. Falcon needs a team built around him. Spidey sucks.

Canon argument is invalid. It's a game, game balance is god in a game end of story. If you want canon then how do half the 3* heroes even sit in the same remote league as sentry, Hulk and Thor. How is IW considered more powerful than those 3? How is X-Force wolverine more powerful than those 3? How is Fury.... you get the point (relating to being 4* and ignoring the fact 2/3 of them suck hard).

Idea of buying more health pack slots is nice. Idea they would sell them for ISO is wishful thinking. Idea they would sell them for 25 HP is still wishful thinking. They are selling 5 health packs for 200 ISO... I think you'll be multiplying that number for the first extra and increasing from there IF they did it at all (which I doubt).

SO there... answers from someone not Nemek but I will re-iterate the opening post is largely ill thought out garbage to ensure my post is in line with official policies

over_clocked

bonfire01 wrote:

If you want to prove me wrong then play consecutive games with 85 a.wolvie + lvl 69 Daken + loner hero in PvP vs 85 OBW + 85 thor/Ares (you may need to tank a bit depending on how you play). Pop it on Youtube and show me how many games you get through without healing. Then i'll post consecutive games of OBW + Ares/Thor vs the same. no breaks in between for either of us. Lets see who does better? Lets see how much of a hit you take for that combo.... lets see how much of a nerf this is for 2* players.

I''ll then post some consecutive games in PvP of me winning and not healing at all with my 3*s. We'll see how long I can go for (or you can take my word for it that it's "as long as I like").

sorry, couldn't resist

GrumpySmurf1002

bonfire01 wrote:

OBW is overused cause there are ZERO other viable 2* supports

This is really the most important thing. I'd gladly use more characters if there were more characters to use at the 2* level. It's boring as tinykitty to sit there and run ares/obw over and over, but that's the option, aside from MMags+Storm which bleed PvP points like no tomorrow.

Bagman is a special version of the 250iso card.
Bullseye is completely useless. (137 instead of 37 protect tiles would turn the tide quickly.)
Captain takes 4 days to launch an ability. (seriously, 19AP to launch protect tiles that barely cover half of Ares near insta-onslaught damage)
Daken is cannon fodder (but at least kinda fun used with OBW + RGY guys).
Moonstone 'might' be usable if Wolverine and Thor are dead and I need a red nuke.
MHawk is so close, but CD tiles. (reducing his CDs to 1 would make him almost usable)

So you have 12 2* characters, 2 of which are unplayable and 4 more that are critically flawed. Oh, and for PVP you can only use 2 of the 6 usable guys because you have to use a 3* you may/may not have more than 4-5 covers of because there are 22 of them and counting. But sure, tell me more about how I should diversify my play. (insert Gene Wilder picture here)