Is there a slow entrance into 5* land strategy with solo Apoc? And is it worth it?

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Theghouse
Theghouse Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
in MPQ General Discussion
Intro: Skip ahead for tl;dr...  I'm a day 865 player.  I've played pretty casually with minimal spending throughout my days.  I have rostered all 4* with 36 champed.  I have all but six classic 5*s rostered with most at 4 covers or less and not leveled. My top 5* for quite some time was Hawkeye at 4/3/4 soft-capped at 375.  My token pulling strategy has been pull as I go when I get a LL, and use CP to buy CL to get all the classic 5*s.  My 3* roster has hit the sweet spot where I am getting the best champ rewards before reaching max champ, so I've been seeing a lot more LL and CP rewards and I got Apoc up to 8 covers.  After that I switched to using CP on LL's and with some lucky pulls now I have Apoc up to 4/4/3 and also softcapped at 375.  I also brought my 1/3/1 Iceman up to 330 just to test out the synergy with Apoc, Hawkeye, and Iceman in shield sim (fun and has some strengths but certainly not up to the meta-level).

As a casual player I didn't think I'd see the day I was remotely close to having a Latest 5* near 13 covers, let alone one generally well rated as top-tier.  I wasn't very excited about the prospect of 5* play just from hearing on the forums all the repetition in the 5* meta, making the rest of your roster useless and using only the same few characters etc.  I also knew that with Hawkeye as my top 5* prior to this, I was not going to make him a solo 5* champ because I would be hopelessly outgunned by the top meta 5*.  But after looking at my play in 4* land for the last year or so, the top meta 4* has the same effect really.  In PVE I use Juggs, R&G, and Gamora exclusively for speed, and on essential nodes R&G and Gamora are usually the fastest pairing as well unless fighting somebody anti-strike-tile, and there is a very small group of 4* that get regular use in PVP: Carol,  Medusa, Gamora, R&G, Peggy, Coulson [with Hawkeye], Deadpool, Juggernaut, Sabretooth [anti-Rocket], Chavez, Worthy [with Hawkeye], Bishop, Vulture, Karnak.  The growing list of new 4* characters is already useless to me if they don't replace the speed and combos of the top meta.  So that has me considering the jump with Apoc, if I can and if I should...


tl;dr -  My top 5* are Hawkeye 4/3/4 and Apoc 4/4/3.  Need advice for possible jump to 5* champ with Apoc.

With Old Man Daken just announced I probably have about a month left (2 weeks of special stores and 2 weeks before rotating into LL?) to chase Apoc which I fully plan on doing.  Aside from chasing Apoc, I was looking for advice on what my goals should be for the future:  
  1. Is Hawkeye worth any more effort and resources?  He's tons of fun with Carol and Coulson but this combo is SLOW and it's already strong enough to down boss event Apoc in one turn at his current level.  His pairing with Worthy is also great on PVP and has some usefulness on tough PVE nodes.  As a partner with Apoc his blue CD tiles fuel red for Apoc, but there is little synergy otherwise. But he is far and away my next closest to 13 covers.

  2. Should I set Apoc as my favorite for shards, or should I start targeting another 5* to try and build as a teammate?  I imagine BRB is a great pairing but my BRB is only 2/2/0 so shards alone will take years and extreme luck in CL pulls.

  3. If I can hit 13 covers, is Apoc worth solo champing?  Or am I better off building a good team of 5* before I champ them in a set?  

  4. What's the best strategy for building my roster if I do make him my solo 5* champ?  Do I favorite a good Classics teammate and pull CLs and hope for the best?  Or do I save all LLs and CPs and wait for a good new teammate to enter Latest?  Are there any standout 4* with Apoc I should be building?
My 5* roster for reference is

Apoc 4/4/3 at 375
Hawkeye 4/3/4 at 375
Iceman 1/3/1 at 330

Doom 0/5/2 at 255
Hela 3/1/2 at 255
Starlord 3/2/1 at 255
Havok 2/2/2 at 255
Thanos 2/0/3 at 255

4 covers: Prof X, BRB, Onslaught, Bolt, Sinister, OML,
3 covers: CapFA, CapIW, Marvel, Widow, Cable, Rescue, Surfer, Gambit, Iron Man,
2 covers: Jean, Kitty, Thor, Yelena, Panther, Carnage, Doc Ock, Killmonger, Spidey, IHulk, Banner
1 cover: Archangel, Strange, Robbie, Goblin, Kingpin, BSSM

Comments

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,192 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Don't jump unless you have 3 or 4 5* characters ready to be champed. 

    Apoc is not meta enough to carry you without a stronger supporting cast. 

    I jumped into 5* star land with one and it was the worst experience until I had 3 more. 
  • tonypq
    tonypq Posts: 549 Critical Contributor
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    IMO the best way to enter 5 land is build a horde of LL tokens and CPs until you have around 300 pulls. Then when there are hopefully 2 good to great 5s you have a pretty good chance to cover them around 300 pulls. Then once you have a trio of decent 5s you might consider champing them and moving to 5 land. 

    It depends though because once you do that, your scaling goes up and pve and pvp may prove to be more of a grind and challenge than you like. Of course you could still build a stash and just level those 5s to around the level your other champs are. Then at some point where maybe you've finished some of your other 5s down the road, you could start chamling them and head to 5 land later on.

    That's what I did. For several years I pulled as I went and had a roster like yours. Then I reached a point I champed all the 4s I cared for and wanted to move to 5 land. I spent a horde of 300 or so pulls when Doom, Hela, and Captain Marvel were in LLs. Was lucky to champ them all with about 260 pulls. 

    Then I champed them and moved to 5 land. Since then I've horded two more times, for Beta Ray Bill and Prof X, then again for Immortal Hulk and Apocalypse. Now I do SCL PVE 

    As far as your Apocalypse not sure how long it will take you to finish him via shards. Whether you buy shards or purchase an offer, or if you'd get the shards strictly via setting as a favorite and getting shards as you pull. If you pull as you go you'll finish him sooner I guess, but if you horde there might be a good trio  of 5s to pull for down the road and you might be able to fully cover them at the time giving you multiple strong 5*s to enter the 5 tier. 
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 991 Critical Contributor
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    My advice: don't be in a rush to do it. But if you are, know what you are signing up for.

    As a recent entrant into the 5* tier, I tried to go it slow by champing Okoye alone to experience "single champ MMR". Once I did this, 95% of the teams I faced in PvP were champed Kitty and Rocket. Let me tell you, no matter who I paired Okoye with, it didn't work out well for me. So I bit the bullet, champed Kitty, Apocalypse, and Beta Ray Bill, and raised but capped iHulk and Thor so they wouldn't tank anything over my baby Okoye. Now I'm like everyone else. I run BRB + Kitty every time, and 90% of the teams I face are either Kitty + BRB, BRB + Bishop, or iHulk + Okoye with an occasional Hawkeye + Cap Worthy thrown in.

    PvE SCL 10 full progression went from difficulty level 7 to 5. Definitely goes faster, and health pack usage is down a bit.
    PvP SCL 10 1000 points went from difficulty level 6 to 10. My win rate dropped significantly, health pack usage skyrocketed, and average time per match at least doubled. In addition, I get hit more often and lose more points.

    Against Gritty, the computer will chase Yellow (since it's Kitty's strongest color) and Red. Those are Poccy's two best powers (IMHO), so you'll be competing for AP. In addition, you'll be forced to chase Rocket's strike tiles to eliminate them before they get out of control, and there's no guarantee they'll be on colors you want to collect. Plus if you're not thinking and throw out some protect tiles on your Black power, you better hurry before Kitty eats them up and hits you for significant damage with her CD.

    Poccy's high health pool will be a slight deterrent, but if I was running Gritty, points being equal I'd probably go after Apocalypse + anyone before I'd go after a mirror Gritty.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Here is the chronicle of my experience doing it this way, but I started with Ghost Rider: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/76726/the-grand-experiment-can-you-transition-to-5-s-pulling-as-you-go-as-a-progession-only-f2p-player/p1
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I will will give advice on the 2 5* you are close to championing.  They are both really good.  Apocalypse is best with 1/2 health Thor and is great in PVE.  His red will crush 2-3 enemy’s in CL9.  His black also does great damage.  Lastly even at 450 he has huge health to let you avoid health packs.  I also use him with BRB and Thor or Thor and IHulk.  He is a ton of fun.  He is good in PVP at below 700 points but above that you need better teams against Okoye/IHulk and BRB/ Kitty.

    for Hawkeye he is amazing for challenge nodes in CL10.  You use Hawkey, Coulson, Gamora put on the right supports, Boost enough AP and you will crush any level challenge node.  I will use this team on any challenge node against Carnage personally.

    overall when making the jump to 5* land remember this your PVP experience won’t suddenly get better. It will be the same to worse.  Your PVE experience will feel a lot easier with the higher health and higher damage characters
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,546 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Finish him. Even get the extra covers and save them if you want to run him later. But do not champ him until you have at least 2 more fives that team well with him or your PvP experience will not be fun.
  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
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    I’m a solo 5* player, but I presume she’s a meta, Okoye. So while I’ll never be Gritty I can compete with every other team PvP and place top 100 in SCL 10. Last November she was only 9/13 and I decided to pour all resources into champing her, which took about 5 months thanks to the new shard system and a few lucky draws in special vaults . Then came iHulk and unknowingly I got my first meta-team. In essence, you never know who the next release is and today’s lackluster duo could be part of a future meta . It’s a gamble . But I could see Apoc definitely as part of a top meta team 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Apocalypse plus a a 5/x/x Thor of any level can really make moves for you. I have a champed apocalypse, and a 5/0/2 Gladiathor, and he does all the heavy lifting with that highly effective battery. I'd say you could/should finish apocalypse, then just chase Thor/Valkyrie/Ragnarok until you have 5 greens.
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 991 Critical Contributor
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    I agree with all the above and it raised an excellent point: finishing a 5* (getting them to 13 covers) should be looked at differently than champing a 5*. Before I was in 5* land, I'd say I had hit the "sweet spot" where I had most of the meta 5*s (Okoye, Thor, Kitty, iHulk, Apoc) finished with optimal cover distribution (e.g. I kept pulling Kitty covers until I had her at 5/5/3 even though I ended up with several saved) and then soft capped them all. It was the easiest time I've ever had in PvP (T100) and PvE SCL10 wasn't too much of a slog either (T200, full progression easily without optimal timing).
  • Theghouse
    Theghouse Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
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    Thanks all. Since I made the first post I've pulled 2 Onslaughts and no Apocs... I set Apoc to my fave for shards and will keep pulling. If I can get him to 13 my plan is to keep him around 375-400.

    While champing him ASAP may help me break into SCL10 in PVE, which I have not even tried yet knowing I still don't have quite the roster strength I need...  It sounds like going into champ 5* MMR in PVP would be brutal against the Kitty rocket or Kitty BRB teams with very little synergy between Hawkeye and Apoc and no other strong 5*s right now.

    Looks like after he leaves tokens I'll stop opening as I go, and start saving tokens to make a go at collecting a trio of Latest 5*s down the road.
  • MathiasTCK
    MathiasTCK Posts: 65 Match Maker
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    If you run hawkeye you'd probably run him with coulson or worthy instead of apoc.  if you run apoc you'd probably run him with a boosted 4 instead of 5hawk.  I'd wait before trying to do cl10 pve, but if/when you can reach max prog in it then it is worth a lot of shards... but would be very slow with your roster.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I run Apocalypse with Hawkeye sometimes. He keeps you ultra flush with red that Apocalypse does a lot more with than he does. I won’t do that in Pick 2 though; I use it in Pick 3 occasionally with a CD spamming third like XFDP or Coulson
  • Theghouse
    Theghouse Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
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    Apoc Hawkeye and Coulson has been a very fun and deadly combo in this event where Apoc is boosted.

    But yes you definitely need a CD tile 3rd to make the pairing work. And  it will be less lethal when Apoc is off the latest boost rotation.

    I'm one cover away from champing 4* Torch and I'm interested to see the repeater tile synergy he might bring as a second with Apoc.

    Since my last update I've pulled a Killmonger and another Apoc taking him to 5/4/3.  With some luck and guessing at least a couple weeks left to pull, I have a shot at getting him fully covered.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2020
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    To4rch won't have any particular repeater synergy with Apocalypse unless you have Apocalypse's yellow down, and in fact, if you use To4ch's move that removes all repeaters for damage, I think you'd be doing yourself a dis-service. Rather than looking for chip damagers, I find I have better results trying to pair him with good batteries. I haven't attempted him with Bishop/Mysterio (or worthy/mysterio), but that blue-to-yellow pipeline is pretty reliable when I ran it with Doom. Or I guess Hawkeye/Mysterio might even be interesting for that matter.
  • Jacklag
    Jacklag Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2020
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    To4rch won't have any particular repeater synergy with Apocalypse unless you have Apocalypse's yellow down, and in fact, if you use To4ch's move that removes all repeaters for damage, I think you'd be doing yourself a dis-service. Rather than looking for chip damagers, I find I have better results trying to pair him with good batteries. I haven't attempted him with Bishop/Mysterio (or worthy/mysterio), but that blue-to-yellow pipeline is pretty reliable when I ran it with Doom. Or I guess Hawkeye/Mysterio might even be interesting for that matter.
    Ah! You're forgetting 4* Torch's Yellow Passive. When your team fires a power, he fortifies repeater tiles, so if you pick the right time to fire red, you may not waste all of Apoc's repeaters. Learned it the worst way when trying to use 4*Torch to blow 5*Thor's yellow repeater.

    Still, by the time you have enough repeater's to make a difference, you are most likelly to deal more damage spamming Apoc's red.

    PS: Finally a use for Mysterio. I like it!
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Oh, does that not actually take them off the board? Looks like that power is un-capped, which is nice, but it would have had to be in play for quite a few turns to match Apocalypse's own red for total damage. My To4ch is 274, so he's doing 2287 + 1144/repeater that gets destroyed for 8 red AP. My apocalypse is doing 4230 x 4 for 7ap at lvl 454. 

    As for Mysterio - once you start a turn with 8 blue in the bank, he converts 5 of it over to Yellow (and if there are more than 3 remaining in the bank, he stuns the target). Obviously Bishop is that dude for jumpstarting that passively, but Hawkeye can get it moving in pretty short order on paper. 
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Since he put are looking to champ Apocalypse and Hawkeye as your first 2 5* I will also add I ran Hawkeye/Coulson/Apocalypse in the PVE Hawkeye was essential.  I was able to feed Apocalypse so much red it I was just wiping out high level nodes in CL10 with ease.  Coulson CD tiles were doing 10k damage each.  It was a very interesting team.  Not meta but not slow
  • Akroma
    Akroma Posts: 77 Match Maker
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    hi, i have one friend who pulled for apoc, initially with plans of yelena apoc ons, but he got lucky and got 13 apoc covers while getting only 6-7 of yelena and ons, and we decided it was better to get apoc only.

    he champed it, its his only 5* champs. he says pve is extreme differnece, he gets max prog with apoc, etc. on scl10, which has good rewards.

    in pvp he says he can get easy to normal to 900 points, but its harder than before to get to 1k points. but also he says that he can get sometimes even to 1200 points rewards via wininig fights. he almost always get the 1k point rewards with wins (50 wins). considering 1 apoc red usually kills someone in pvp, he says 50 wins is like 30 wins before apoc. he uses mostly apoc america chavez.

    he also got the perfect color distribution, actually we made it that way, via shards and not leveling black past 2 covers until the last cover. but he decided to champ him because in pve scl10 it was a big help.

    i recently got apoc, and i can say its night and day diference. but i already had 10 champs, so its not like my friend experience when apoc was his first champ. also i have to say that even having okoye thor, thorpocalypse is a lot faster, maybe 2 times faster on pvp and on all nodes except for the challenge node. in there, sometimes i change to okoye, sometimes stay with apoc, but is not as fast. (my okoye cant tank for thor, and all my champs are 451ish.

    i hope this info helps :)
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I took Hawk-Poca-Styrio into Simulator, and in my MMR it wasn’t super impressive. However Apoca-Bish-Styrio, if you have the health to revive Bishop between matches, is very effective. You’ll be swimming in yellow passively after turn 2, so make sure you are actively chasing red. Mysterio has a passive stun on that AP conversion, Which I’d forgotten about. Anyway, fun alterna-team if you want to mess around with it.

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