Vhailorx said: blankcanvas said: I agree he doesn't look great but to say the 4* tier is dead is a little premature. 2019 gave us some fun characters like Juggs, Thanos, Ronin, Creed, (*cough* Steve and his magic hammer *cough*), MODOK, Hammond Torch to name a few.But you are right that dilution continues to be a problem. Rather than rolling out characters relentlessly, it would be nice to see how the developers plan to tackle this subject in 2020. (Assuming shards has something to do with it). There were many good 4*s released this year, but the 4* tier is still dead. Trash tier characters are always bad. They just dilute the pool, and 4* land is very dilute. (Northstar is in this tier, I think.)But even good 4* characters are now just treading water. They do little to add to the variety of play for 5* players, nor can they compete with level 330+ 4* champs. and even for newer players on whose rosters the good new 4*a would make a difference, the 4* tier is SOOOOO diluted now that it's necessary to hoard for more than a month (while grinding hard) to gather aeven a handful of targeted 4* covers). Would you rather have 10 covers for sabertooth, or 5 each for sabertooth and 2099, even if you think 2099 is a bit better?Broken characters (worthy and to a lesser extent Juggs) are also bad because they invalidate all prior characters. Are there really any 4*s that matter for 5* play right now beyond bishop, worthy, and (when boosted or otherwise able to tank) Juggs? These characters break fundamental rules of mpq (they enable massive AP gain on round 2 in PvP, or they make aoe damage effectively zero cost). no one should advocate in favor the 4* tier because they want to see new broken 4*a. That is just a bad outcome for everyone.
blankcanvas said: I agree he doesn't look great but to say the 4* tier is dead is a little premature. 2019 gave us some fun characters like Juggs, Thanos, Ronin, Creed, (*cough* Steve and his magic hammer *cough*), MODOK, Hammond Torch to name a few.But you are right that dilution continues to be a problem. Rather than rolling out characters relentlessly, it would be nice to see how the developers plan to tackle this subject in 2020. (Assuming shards has something to do with it).
tiomono said: I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it. There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security.
blankcanvas said: I agree with what you say about there still being life in the 4* tier. But it's absolutely down to personal preference and what players want to get out of the game.I'm pve only and play only for progression I have zero interest in placement so I really enjoy mixing teams up in pve to find new, innovative combinations.I appreciate that I am probably the minority but I have every 4* champed that I want and am only chasing new characters that interest me and I feel can add something different to the way I play (sadly I do not see Northstar in this bracket).@Vhailorx does raise important points around the desperate need for character rebalancing at 4* & 5* tiers to eliminate the so called trash tiers in both but also the issue of dilution which grows wider with every passing day.I think it is important that these points are not lost in the discussion over "is this character a dud" or "4* are dead" etc.
fight4thedream said: blankcanvas said: I agree with what you say about there still being life in the 4* tier. But it's absolutely down to personal preference and what players want to get out of the game.I'm pve only and play only for progression I have zero interest in placement so I really enjoy mixing teams up in pve to find new, innovative combinations.I appreciate that I am probably the minority but I have every 4* champed that I want and am only chasing new characters that interest me and I feel can add something different to the way I play (sadly I do not see Northstar in this bracket).@Vhailorx does raise important points around the desperate need for character rebalancing at 4* & 5* tiers to eliminate the so called trash tiers in both but also the issue of dilution which grows wider with every passing day.I think it is important that these points are not lost in the discussion over "is this character a dud" or "4* are dead" etc. To be honest, I don't think you are the minority at all.I think your attitude towards the game and which characters you want reflect a significant portion of the player base. For example, OML frequently features in fan favorite tokens even though he is considered competitively sub-par on the forum. Casual players are probably Marvel fans who have their own personal favorite characters and focus on collecting them regardless of their competitive value and are not overly concerned about champing every character in the game. Since they are playing casually, it's likely they are not familiar with or care all that much about the meta. It's only when a design is glaringly jarring such as 5* Hulk or 4* Emma that they may regret the time they invested in pursuing the character. Or perhaps they find some unique set up that works for them. They might put a bit more effort in the game when a personal favorite is released but since they normally play casually, they probably don't expect to walk away with top rewards. Maybe for them an extra cover or two is a sufficient victory. And now with shards, they can work towards getting more covers of that character. I, however, am not a casual player. I play the game quite competitively and find the current meta a lot more fun and engaging. 2019 saw an abundance of well designed, fun 4* characters and new events featuring opportunities to win more 4* covers so I am left scratching my head by what is meant when someone says "the 4* tier is dead."Yes, the removal of bonus heroes was a significant loss, some 4* characters bring nothing interesting in terms of game play and dilution is a significant problem but I don't see how that adds up to arguing a whole tier is no longer relevant. tiomono said: I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it. There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security. We are going to have to agree to disagree here.I don't have an issue with inter-tier team synergy being the better option. I think synergy should take precedence over tier status. In fact, if the game dynamics operated in the way you wished, then one could make a legitimate argument that "the 4* tier is dead" since 4*s would be ineffective against all 5* characters. Ideally, there should be a healthy balance between 5*/5* teams and 4*/5* teams. I believe this allows more people to participate in PvP. I do agree their should be a level of risk running a lower tiered character but I imagine we would disagree on the parameters of such a risk.For example, Kitty/Grocket can take out most 5* teams with out much fuss. However, they are rendered almost completely useless by Black Suit Spider-man and are not a major threat to those running the Okoye/Thor (with Okoye tanking). I think that is sufficient but I know there are those who argue that since Black Suit Spider-man isn't a top tier character, the user incurs a greater risk utilizing him to counter Gritty and so don't find it a worthy solution.
peterdark said: tiomono said: I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it. There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security. I generally agree with that but I can imagine IM40, Mags and Blackwidow 3* should have no problem competing against a Mysterio and Talos team
tiomono said: peterdark said: tiomono said: I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it. There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security. I generally agree with that but I can imagine IM40, Mags and Blackwidow 3* should have no problem competing against a Mysterio and Talos team So who is your 3rd 4* in this team? Im40 is a top 3 3* character easily on most people's list magneto is top 10 most likely. Give Talos and Mysterio (a wildly underrated character imo) any top 10 4* as a 3rd and it will stomp the 3*'s.
Ed_Dragonrider said: tiomono said: peterdark said: tiomono said: I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it. There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security. I generally agree with that but I can imagine IM40, Mags and Blackwidow 3* should have no problem competing against a Mysterio and Talos team So who is your 3rd 4* in this team? Im40 is a top 3 3* character easily on most people's list magneto is top 10 most likely. Give Talos and Mysterio (a wildly underrated character imo) any top 10 4* as a 3rd and it will stomp the 3*'s. You can have Namor for 3rd or Emma perhaps
OJSP said: tiomono said:If there are combinations of 4* characters that can easily beat any combination of 5*'s, why progress your roster beyond 4* at all? It depends on what we want out of the game.If we play competitively, I think we need 5*s to be able to get top5-t10 placements in the highest SCLs in PvE and without coordination in PvP. It's not impossible using only 4*s, but generally speaking, it's quite rare. Even if we're able to compete with exclusively 4*s now, as other people grow their rosters, chances are we'd get left behind. There is also another problem when our 4*s get to around lvl 335 and they are considered the same as 5* champions for MMR purposes. That could make PvP much harder if the majority of our 4* roster is not appropriately developed.If we don't play competitively, there are 2 ways of looking at this: the 5*s are a hinderance due to MMR, so it's better to stay at the 4* tier. Or, there's more opportunity to find interesting combinations, because we're not pressured to score high. A lot of boosted 4*s (and some unboosted 4*s) could beat low level championed 5* teams.I think if we don't actually care about placements or even moving to 5* land, it's much better to stay as 4* players now. We could choose an appropriate SCL to play for PvE, we could still get top progression in PvP by getting 75 wins and we could still get 2000 in SHIELD Sim if we time our climb appropriately.
tiomono said:If there are combinations of 4* characters that can easily beat any combination of 5*'s, why progress your roster beyond 4* at all?
tiomono said: OJSP said: tiomono said:If there are combinations of 4* characters that can easily beat any combination of 5*'s, why progress your roster beyond 4* at all? It depends on what we want out of the game.If we play competitively, I think we need 5*s to be able to get top5-t10 placements in the highest SCLs in PvE and without coordination in PvP. It's not impossible using only 4*s, but generally speaking, it's quite rare. Even if we're able to compete with exclusively 4*s now, as other people grow their rosters, chances are we'd get left behind. There is also another problem when our 4*s get to around lvl 335 and they are considered the same as 5* champions for MMR purposes. That could make PvP much harder if the majority of our 4* roster is not appropriately developed.If we don't play competitively, there are 2 ways of looking at this: the 5*s are a hinderance due to MMR, so it's better to stay at the 4* tier. Or, there's more opportunity to find interesting combinations, because we're not pressured to score high. A lot of boosted 4*s (and some unboosted 4*s) could beat low level championed 5* teams.I think if we don't actually care about placements or even moving to 5* land, it's much better to stay as 4* players now. We could choose an appropriate SCL to play for PvE, we could still get top progression in PvP by getting 75 wins and we could still get 2000 in SHIELD Sim if we time our climb appropriately. I can definitely agree that what you want out of the game completely impacts this discussion. It just feels off to me that in versus events 90% of the 5* tier champed struggles against teams that include certain unboosted 4*'s.
DAZ0273 said: tiomono said: OJSP said: tiomono said:If there are combinations of 4* characters that can easily beat any combination of 5*'s, why progress your roster beyond 4* at all? It depends on what we want out of the game.If we play competitively, I think we need 5*s to be able to get top5-t10 placements in the highest SCLs in PvE and without coordination in PvP. It's not impossible using only 4*s, but generally speaking, it's quite rare. Even if we're able to compete with exclusively 4*s now, as other people grow their rosters, chances are we'd get left behind. There is also another problem when our 4*s get to around lvl 335 and they are considered the same as 5* champions for MMR purposes. That could make PvP much harder if the majority of our 4* roster is not appropriately developed.If we don't play competitively, there are 2 ways of looking at this: the 5*s are a hinderance due to MMR, so it's better to stay at the 4* tier. Or, there's more opportunity to find interesting combinations, because we're not pressured to score high. A lot of boosted 4*s (and some unboosted 4*s) could beat low level championed 5* teams.I think if we don't actually care about placements or even moving to 5* land, it's much better to stay as 4* players now. We could choose an appropriate SCL to play for PvE, we could still get top progression in PvP by getting 75 wins and we could still get 2000 in SHIELD Sim if we time our climb appropriately. I can definitely agree that what you want out of the game completely impacts this discussion. It just feels off to me that in versus events 90% of the 5* tier champed struggles against teams that include certain unboosted 4*'s. I suspect however that this is actually a 5* player caused problem. If you start with Champed 5* MMR then you might see the odd 4* roster if you are lucky but your opponent's are other 5* players. So it is 5* players who are using these characters in ways that is annoying because 4* players shouldn't be on your radar. If as a 4* player I use Bishop it is because I have no other weapons available to me. But I doubt you are seeing my roster which tops out at 360. So it is 5* players who need to ween themselves off of using 4* characters as far as I can work out this issue.