Coming back after 3-4 years looking for roster help and general advice 3* roster

collin_bda
collin_bda Posts: 2 Just Dropped In
edited December 2018 in Roster and Level Help
Hi all,

I'm coming back to the game after something like 3-4 years I don't remember exactly when I left. A lot has changed there is champing now SCL supports etc. I'v gone and made the rookie mistake of opening too many cover and ending up with too many characters needing to be rostered. I'm squarely in the 3* transition, I've managed to champ all the 2* I had and even managed to champ 3* Thor and Daredevil.
From what I understand I should be aiming to roster and champ all the 2* (except bagman) and then continuing to cover my 3*. It seems easier now to earn HP so I've managed to pick up a few roster slots and bought the starter pack to get a few more but am not looking to spend any more money if I don't have to. Right now I have waiting to be rostered DR. Strange 3* (2-covers), She-Hulk, Gambit, Nebula, Moonstar (3-covers) and bullseye 2*.

I feel like HP will be my limiting factor going forward but I'm hoping to earn enough to roster Dr. Strange and nebula at least but what advice would you give on managing my roster right now and long term. Also what should I be focusing on in the game that is new.

Any advice for an new oldbie would be helpful.

Here is My Roster

2 star cover cover cover total
Daken 3 5 5 13
Black Widow 3 5 5 13
Wolverine 5 5 3 13
Human Torch 5 3 5 13
Magneto 3 5 5 13
Storm 5 5 3 13
Thor 3 5 5 13
Captain Marvel 5 5 3 13
Ares 4 4 5 13
Hawkeye 3 5 5 13
Captain America 3 5 2 10

3 star cover cover cover total
Thor 3 5 5 13
daredevil 5 3 5 13
gamora 4 4 4 12
scarlet witch 3 4 5 12
hulk 5 4 3 12
cyclops 3 4 4 11
doctor doom 5 2 3 10
magneto 3 3 4 10
storm 5 2 3 10
luke cage 3 3 3 9
iron man 2 4 3 9
ragnarok 5 1 3 9
thanos 3 2 4 9
kamla khan 3 2 3 8
loki 3 3 2 8
rocket and groot 3 2 3 8
sentry 4 2 2 8
captain america 2 3 3 8
psylock 3 3 1 7
deadpool 3 2 2 7
black panther 3 2 2 7
daken 2 3 2 7
colossus 1 3 2 6
quick silver 2 2 2 6
beast 3 2 1 6
sam wilson 3 2 1 6
the hood 3 2 1 6
spiderman 3 2 1 6
blade 2 1 1 4
punisher 1 1 2 4
squirrl girl 3 0 1 4
black widow 1 0 2 3
iron fist 0 1 2 3
mystique 0 2 1 3
captain marvel 1 1 1 3
human torch 1 1 1 3
wolverine 1 1 1 3
hawkeye 0 0 2 2
star lord 0 1 1 2

4 star cover cover cover total
wolverine 1 1 3 5
thor 3 1 0 4
star lord 1 1 0 2
antman 1 1 0 2
domino 0 1 0 1
elektra 0 1 0 1
iron man 0 0 1 1

Comments

  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards

    In the long run, you absolutely want all twostars rostered so you can farm them for champion rewards (that is, when they hit level 144 you sell them and roster a new copy).

    However, if you are still building your threestar roster you don't necessarily need to keep all twostars at all costs - if a twostar just takes up roster space you may be better off Selling them and rostering a better character right now, then rerostering them later. Specifically, I am looking at 2* Captain America, who is pretty underwhelming and was just a PvE essential, so you won't need him again for a long time. Moonstone and Bullseye can probably be skipped too at the moment.

    Definitely roster Dr Strange, he is one of the top threestars in the game and will be very helpful for you going forward. You seem to have 39 of the 47 threestars rostered, so you are on the home stretch of rostering all the threestars, that's nice. I don't know if Gambit or She-Hulk needs to be a priority to roster though, neither one is Amazing.

    It's probably too early to actively chase fourstars for you, but try to roster the ones you get. In particular, the latest Three fourstars (right now Domino, Bishop and Prowler) are frequently essential in Story mode, so having them on your roster gives you an advantage there.


    By the way - which fourstar Hulk do you have? The Totally Awesome Hulk or the Main Event Hulk?

  • collin_bda
    collin_bda Posts: 2 Just Dropped In
    oh actually that should be Iron man Hulkbuster. i'll fix that in the roster. would it be worth it to ditch 4* electra for nebula or one of the other 3*?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 6,305 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hey Colin - not sure if you know but to save you the hassle of typing out your roster you can create an online account at Gampendium to link to instead (you still have to create and update it but it beats typing stuff!)


    In respect of 3* - not only should you roster Dr. Strange you should also make him your sole Bonus Hero for the 3* tier until you have him champed. If you had to dump a character to roster him I would definitely do so as he is well worth it. 

    As for dumping a 4* to roster Nebula, ideally you would keep them but I would be tempted to actually dump Hulkbuster because Elektra's black might actually be more useful at 1 cover than HB's blue. That said, Nebula probably wont be that much longer as a "latest" 4* if you want to think longer term as Bishop and Prowler will be rotating in - you can earn a Bishop cover in the 12 Days of Christmas event starting today.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,571 Chairperson of the Boards
    Also Prowler is probably going to be a better transitional 4* with his special tile stealing antics.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,249 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    1.) Spend all HP on roster slots to roster every cover you can, don't buy tokens or covers etc with them at this stage of the game
    2.) Eventually you can either reduce 2* to free up roster spaces or begin farming 2* as your 3* roster progresses
    3.) PvE progression and node clears will give you a nice boost to resources, if you have time you can add in PvP for added rewards but I would focus on PvE first if I was in your shoes
    4.) Spending $1.99 on buying 200 HP every month is worth it for the added random bonuses of iso/HP/CP that you get - you can average anywhere from 5-10 random drops every day (unless you are a true ftp player, I would recommend this) but don't do this until your recent purchase credit has expired (30 days after your last purchase and you can view if you are receiving this bonus in the UI)
    5.) don't open any legendary tokens you may receive or spend CP if you plan on playing PvP. Adding a 5* character to your roster will destroy your PvP MMR at this point.  Simply hoard these resources for the future.  
    6.) find a casual alliance that will give you close to the 2000 iso per day bonus for playing daily if you are not in one already
    7.) If you spend $, do it for HP for roster slots.  Roster slots will be your limiting resource at this point with all of the new characters that have been added to the game since you stopped playing. 
    8.) Add 3* strange and Nebula if possible.  You will learn to like 3* strange once you get enough covers for him and 4* covers are much harder to find than 3* and 2* so keep Nebula, you will get plenty of the others later. 
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 1,804 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    It's never too early to farm 2*s, which means that you want them all champed (except Bagman) and giving you champ rewards daily.  You also don't want to waste any covers.  So, if you're in a pinch, I would buy HP, but if you don't want to spend and have to choose between rostering a 3* or 4*, choose the 4*. Those covers are more valuable. 

    To help yourself not need so many roster slots right away, don't open Heroics or Legendary tokens. You can build the 4* tier later. Right now you need to focus on champing 3*s. They will strengthen your gameplay, give you more rewards and pave the way to 4* champs. You don't want to build both tiers at the same time. 

    As for gameplay, play any event that you can. Complete whatever you can for rewards. Story events give better rewards than Versus events, but try to do both. SCL 4 or 5 is where you belong for the moment. With a good team of 3* champs you can play SCL 6 or 7. For now, Thor and Daredevil make a good 2-person team. Scarlet Witch would be a good 3rd. Of your upcoming 3*s, the good ones are Cyclops, Magneto, Cage, Iron Man, Kamala. Thanos is great for clearing low level enemies fast. You could play him with Rocket&Groot and Daken. 

    And BTW, welcome back, the game is 10 times better than when you left. Supports could help if you get a high level one. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,571 Chairperson of the Boards
    bbigler said:
    Story events give better rewards than Versus events, but try to do both. 
    Versus has the advantage of being playable till you run out of health on your roster, and the random after-match drops can really help you farm 2*s. But generally there is more reward playing story
  • AardvarkPepper
    AardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    @OP:  Yeah, you want to roster the non-Bagman 2*s . . . IF you are playing PvP, PvE and/or Lightning Rounds regularly and generating tokens.  Which contextually from your post you are, or else you wouldn't have excess covers, because where else would you get the covers?

    But to be clear - IF you are generating tokens regularly, then you roster the non-Bagman 2*s because they're generating CP, HP, and tokens.  You don't sell 2*s off to roster another indifferent 3*, because though any 3* you roster will get you the next tier of rewards, those rewards are far slower to earn.  This is even more the case for 4* rewards.

    IF you are NOT generating tokens regularly (say you are only playing Deadpool Dailies) and say you are REALLY doing NOTHING else then you dump your 2*s because you don't need them as Essential characters, you're not generating tokens, and your primary HP income is through having the 3* Essential character for Deadpool Daily Quest.

    --

    Other note:  Roster 1* Juggernaut.  For Deadpool Daily Quest.  If you happen to have XYZ characters, and you're at that point, you'll need to clear the 1* node for rewards.  Roster no other 1*s though.  Others might say "roster 1* Black Widow with five blue covers" - yeah that's great if you have roster space, but you don't, and you won't for quite some time, so don't worry about it.

    If your alliance demands you roster 1* Black Widoww with five blue covers - just find another alliance.  You can still get in a top 100 PvE alliance, and that's about where you can be.

    --

    As to your goal should be covering the 3*s - no.  That's nice for veteran players that did things that way years back when there were fewer characters, or whatever, but these days - no.  These days, you roster 1* Juggernaut, the non-Bagman 2*s (provided what I wrote at top), a selection of 3*s, and select 4*s.  Mind the word "select".  You're not just going after whatever indifferent 3* or 4*, you're going for the ones that will increase your ability to perform in PvE, PvP, and alliance events, and that will decrease the real time spent to earn rewards.

    --

    And I'm gonna say yeah, you do want to dump some 3*s for those preferential 4*s.  More on that in a bit.

    OK the characters you should concentrate on - IMO you shouldn't screw with a lot of character ranking lists that are out there, because they're mostly geared from what I've seen towards players in the late 3*-4* transition and PvP.  But that is not you.  You're maybe going for PvP but probably you are going for both PvP and PvE and you don't have level 250+ 3*s so boosts and priorities will be different.

    Priority 3*s:

    Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Hawkeye.  These are your bread and butter; Iron Man accelerates your AP, Doctor Strange punishes enemies that fire active powers (typically non-character enemies that fire powers that create countdowns; Strange hits them with immediate damage and heals your team; meanwhile the countdowns need time to count down before they cause problems).  Hawkeye messes with enemies that create Strike, Protect, and Attack; Hawkeye generates AP off those matches and has true regenerate so . . . yeah.

    Captain America, Kamala Khan, Hood, Thanos.  These are next tier.  Captain America can be charged up quickly with Iron Man; in conjunction with Kamala Khan each time he fires temporary hit points are generated.  Plus Kamala Khan covers purple and green and has an okay-ish (not great really) team damage power.  Hood steals AP, and though Hood is super fragile he's important in some matchups (though rare so he shouldn't be highly prioritized).  Thanos passive black deals a load of damage, which saves you time.  Thanos' damaging your own team may seem a drawback but it won't be so much once you use disposable characters and use Thanos properly.

    Deadpool, Scarlet Witch, Magneto, Blade, Iron Fist.  Deadpool so you can earn points for Deadpool Whales, Scarlet Witch for passive board shakeup, precision green control (usually won't end up using it but it's nice to have) and purple power.  The randomness of Scarlet Witch's stun makes it seem not so great, but it's a 5 turn stun, which is pretty great in practice.  Magneto is unique in that he has multiple board shuffle (not destroy) powers which can come in uniquely handy, plus he has a blue bomb.  Blade generates Strike tiles so ends up being useful in a lot of combinations with other characters.  Iron Fist can cut your easy PvE node times with a powerful persistent Attack tile, and in longer matchups his purple can be abused for a load of cheap damage.

    Black Widow, Daken.  Black Widow has multiple precision-board-manipulation powers.  The crazy cost of her powers might make her seem lame, but in practice she's often a go-to against alliance bosses.  Daken is mostly lousy, but he regenerates and has a two-step damage power that is useful with Thanos.

    Other stuff okay might seem nice.  But think on this - usually other characters are in there for just one big power, and you can use alliance Team-Up powers for that.  Thinking about using Black Panther for his black team damage?  (Which granted is pretty nice).  Well instead of using a 3*, you can use a 4* like Jean Grey that additionally removes Special tiles or generates Special tiles.  Or thinking about using 3* Daredevil to get rid of enemy Strike, Protect, and Attack tiles?  Daredevil's purple is expensive for what it does, but 4* Spiderwoman's purple is cheaper.  Throw in 4* Riri for teamup powers, and you're okay for most situations.

    On the other hand, though you can use some of the above listed priority 3*s for team-up powers, usually you want them around so they can keep using their powers (Captain America and Magneto and Iron Fist and Black Widow and Daken) or benefit from passives (just about everyone).


    Priority 4*s:

    Rocket and Groot, Medusa, Gamora, Carnage.  Then Captain Marvel, Agent Coulson, Vulture, Peggy Carter, Kraven, more I won't get into here.

    Reason 4* Rocket and Groot is nice is those Strike tiles.  Which may seem pretty lame because you're thinking "but I'll match them away".  But if you combo with 3* Strange at PvE SCL 7, non-character goons don't make matches and even if there is a matcher in there somewhere, you're doing huge damage so usually stuff just dies.

    Medusa can gain health off enemy special matches, which makes her really strong against enemy Sentry bots - and though it may seem that's a pretty specialist thing, she also can be handy in PvP, PvE, whatever.  Whenever enemy Specials are around, Medusa's good, and that can happen a good bit.

    Gamora is nice because she makes 4* Rocket and Groot's Strike tiles stronger.  Again, you may be thinking "but they'll just be matched away".  In the right matchup, stuff just dies before that happens.  So she's good to have on the team.  Plus she has a nasty stun and a insta-kill power.

    Carnage generates specials for Medusa.

    Captain Marvel often lets you get AP ,and you can customize your team with equipment sometimes so her AP generation power also deals damage.  Coulson combos with Captain Marvel.  Vulture is . . . well just look at him.  Peggy makes enemy powers more expensive, so in some situations is really strong.  Kraven cuts enemy special tiles down in effectiveness which can be very good.

    There's others I won't get into here.  But basically the priorities are stuff that cuts real time spent in matches (hence why Strike tiles are good) or that increase viability in tougher matches (like Medusa).

    For the listed 4*s - um I can't really say.  4* Wolverine is given out as a free character for daily rewards sometimes and though he's not as good as he once was by far he's not the worst I'd say.  Thor's kinda lackluster imo, not bad, but not great.   Star Lord can be pretty good.  Ant Man is situational but good in the right situation.  Domino I think requires a more specific team to really be of use.  Elektra same.  Iron Man okay.  But basically they're mostly "okay" rather than "higher priority".

    As to what to dump for what - I'd say dump the single-cover 4*s that aren't that great and probably won't be, though you can look for another opinion.  As I see it, you're not going to be putting more covers on those 4*s any time soon, and you are really going to need roster space.  I'm not saying dump them RIGHT NOW, keep them on until the 14-day timer on some of your other characters is going to expire, then sell one of them and roster the new character - in the meantime, maybe you'll draw that particular 4* for an event or Deadpool Daily Quest thing or something.

    In the long term though, your roster slots are going to be hard up and you will need them - because even if you keep a few of those 4*s you have (not all of which I'd dump in your position), you'd probably be best off getting a few of the higher priority 4*s I mentioned.  (I haven't even mentioned nearly all of the better 4*s, just some that are maybe a bit higher priority imo.)

    As to 4* covers being harder to find - sure.  But 2* and 3* characters gain rewards faster that you can leverage into gains.  Again "select" characters is what you want.  It doesn't matter if 4* Sandman is rarer than 3* She-Hulk.  4* Sandman is generally not that great, so you won't be keeping 4* Sandman anyways, you'll be cycling him out to get another 4*.  So you are going to definitely get rid of *some* 4*s, might as well make it the ones that don't have too much general play value.

    I mean sure yeah you could keep spending money and buy roster slots.  But I read in the OP that's not so much an option.  So I'd say again - research what to keep and what to sell off, and remember you WON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO ROSTER ALL 3*s BEFORE YOU START WORKING ON 4*s.

    Like yeah you probably want to gold-star (you know what that is right?) 3* Doctor Strange then Iron Man then Hawkeye (if you do PvE a lot, otherwise Iron Man first).  And gold-star 4* Rocket and Groot.  But it's not like you want to wait to get 4* Rocket and Groot until you finish rostering all your 3*s.  Go for it as early as you can; play those PvE SCL 7s to get select 4* covers when they come up.
  • AardvarkPepper
    AardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    Oh yeah, clarification re: earlier comment about top 100 PvE.  You do optimal clears (play at slice open until timers start, then just before slice closes grind nodes to zero).  Also you keep two roster slots open (empty), and at PvE SCL 7 you earn the Essential 3* and 4* characters (though the 4* character about halfway through the event).  Assuming you CAN clear SCL 7, which isn't clear you can right now, probably you could with a good bit of effort . . . but anyways if you do that much, you can make max progression then some regularly without question.  And top 100 PvE alliances are only looking for about max progression these days.  So there you go, better alliance rewards.

    Mind I *think* though I'm not *certain* that you can *also* make full progression at SCL 6 or lower even though you only earn the 3* Essential Character later and may not do the 4* Essential Node at all.  Every event I've taken notes for plays out that way, but I haven't taken notes for all events.  Plus the developers like to change things up every now and then.

    But generally yeah if you're in the 3*-4* transition top 100 PvE alliance, should be able to do it if you want.  If you can play at the same time each day, if you're willing to grind.  If.  But if you are, hey, better rewards, why not.
  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Other note:  Roster 1* Juggernaut.  For Deadpool Daily Quest.  If you happen to have XYZ characters, and you're at that point, you'll need to clear the 1* node for rewards.  Roster no other 1*s though.  Others might say "roster 1* Black Widow with five blue covers" - yeah that's great if you have roster space, but you don't, and you won't for quite some time, so don't worry about it.
    I'd broaden that a bit. Only roster a single 1*. But it can be Iron Man, Spidey, or even Storm instead of Juggy if you like them better. They're all capable of soloing the 1* node as well.
  • AardvarkPepper
    AardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2018
    Other note:  Roster 1* Juggernaut.  For Deadpool Daily Quest.  If you happen to have XYZ characters, and you're at that point, you'll need to clear the 1* node for rewards.  Roster no other 1*s though.  Others might say "roster 1* Black Widow with five blue covers" - yeah that's great if you have roster space, but you don't, and you won't for quite some time, so don't worry about it.
    I'd broaden that a bit. Only roster a single 1*. But it can be Iron Man, Spidey, or even Storm instead of Juggy if you like them better. They're all capable of soloing the 1* node as well.
    1* Juggernaut is far superior in applications outside Deadpool Daily Quest.  Granted that's only mostly applicable for players in the 1*-2* transition or early in the 2*-3* transition which only takes a couple weeks with regular play.  But I don't hesitate to recommend 1* Juggernaut as the definitively superior choice.  I don't think there's a question about it.

    1* Iron Man, Spidey, and Storm look all right in 1* Deadpool Daily Quest.  But outside that, 1* Iron Man is terribly slow (all his powers are expensive for what they do), 1* Spidey's hitting powers are far weaker than Juggernaut's red (though he has a blue stun it's only one turn so is quite limited and his red hits for far less), and 1* Storm's board shakeup is far slower and more expensive plus she's quite fragile.

    To redeem 1* Spidey you can say his purple critical tile generation is generally useful and has some synergy (though random) with 2* Bulllseye and that even 2*s generally don't have purple as a good active color (you could cite 2* Black Widow's strong purple as a counterexample and 2* Magneto's purple for blue AP usually for 2* Storm and 2* Moonstone (though it's really expensive and situational - but all those you can say with some justification are situational at least to some degree)), and you could say sometimes you need a non-tier-specific Spider-Man as an essential character for alliance boss events and if a player has limited roster slots and doesn't want to prioritize 2* or 3* Spider-Man (for good reason I'd say) then that could be a factor.  So sure, there's some points to be made for 1* Spiderman.   But pretty much those consider 1* Spiderman in a vacuum, not on any actual team.

    1* Juggernaut's powers are far more effective and functional make Juggernaut the far superior character.  6 green to destroy 16 random tiles, including possibly enemy specials, and 6 red for 1100 damage versus Spider-man's 662.  If you're in a situation in which you have no other characters on a team, then you could sort of make a case for 1* Spidey, sort of.

    But on a team?  On a team, you want each character to have *efficient* powers, not a bunch of inefficient ones.  If 1* Spidey is on a team, his powers simply don't scale up very well; his red does low damage, his blue does even lower damage and only stuns one turn (usually not enough to make a big difference), and his purple though handy really just doesn't justify his inclusion on a team.  On the other hand Juggernaut's hitting almost twice as hard with his red, and his cheap green shakeup can destroy enemy Specials that could badly damage your team.  Plus Juggernaut has a red-green-black suite, where Spidey has a red-blue-purple suite.  This means on a team - not in theory but in practice - typically Spidey is either hiding behind other more valuable characters (so you put him on a team where he can't even tank hits, and has indifferent 1* powers), or Spidey is vulnerable on low utility teams so dies to little purpose, again making little difference because his 1* powers don't scale.  Juggernaut on the other hand can tank more damage, and though Juggernaut may hide behind other characters, the fact he has a red-green-black suite means he can often be popped out to take a big hit, sparing others.  Plus Juggernaut has 3520 hp vs Spidey's 2754; red self-harms for 550 but there's nothing that says Juggernaut MUST use red (and even if he does once he still has more HP than Spidey) so there's a functional margin of safety when using Juggernaut over 1* Spiderman.

    Functionally, then - on actual real teams - what ends up happening in practice is either the 2*s that accompany 1* Spider-Man also cover red-blue-purple so 1* Spidey is "hidden" and almost never takes damage - so you end up using your valuable-ish 2*s to "tank" for Spidey - and again, Spidey really doesn't have great powers, and though you could say his purple has some redeeming points using a character slot just for that is probably not a great deal and you would probably be better just using a different 2* instead of 1* Spidey.

    But 1* Juggernaut's red-green-black color suite and applicable powers mean he *can* step up and eat an enemy power at times, his red self-harms but hits for a lot more than Spidey's so Juggernaut is a stand-in for a suitable red power for the team, and Juggernaut's green shakeup is cheap and effective.  You could say maybe Juggernaut isn't a super standout character once you start using 2*s, but the fact is his cheap and effective powers make him at least someone to consider on teams.  Where's the 2* that's strictly better than Juggernaut?  Ares red hits the entire enemy team, conditionally for even more damage, but it costs 10 so is slow.  Storm green generates AP and shakes board, but is far slower and unless having a big AP bank built up shakes the board less than Juggernaut.

    Examples of actual teams?  Oh, say, 1* Spiderman / 2* Bullseye / 2* Ares (or pick your own team).  In theory Spiderman's purple can feed crits to 2* Bullseye's black, but the RNG placement of Spidey's purple plus the expense of 2* Bullseye's black makes it a tough team to work with.  Ares red is almost strictly superior, so Spidey ends up contributing blue and purple to the team - and purple is slow to build up enough for effect and random, and blue is only a one-turn stun.  It's not the most awful team in the world, but it's not really a "good" team.  It's not fast, it doesn't have good durability, and its synergies are questionable.  And I'd say the same is true for any team with 1* Spiderman, you just give up a lot to get him.

    On the other hand, say 1* Juggernaut / 2* Storm / 2* Magneto.  (You can say "omg 2* storm/magneto that's an unfair comparison - but seriously 1* Spiderman on that team you don't want to use Spidey's blue or purple probably and his red is weak so . . . see?  still doesn't work, why would you put 1* Spidey on that team in the first place?  he can't even tank damage).  Sure 2* Storm can generate AP on her board shakeup, but Juggernaut's shakeup is fast and cheap and effective.  Even though there's a 2* green power, and not a bad one at that, 1* Juggernaut's green can still be handy (against dangerous Muscle opponents for example, if dangerous Countdowns aren't destroyed outright at least maybe they're put in position to be matched).  2* Magneto has a strong red, but it's random and slow, where Juggernaut's cheap effective red has some chance of KOing an enemy before its enemy Countdown is up and does damage (Spiderman does 662 and Juggernaut 1100).  Sure Juggernaut self harms but killing an enemy before it can get its power prevents a lot more damage.  Finally, if Juggernaut has to eat a big enemy attack, the player need only have access to a black match, then Juggernaut can eat a Sniper Rifle countdown or whatever.

    Then there's things like Balance of Power, which again Juggernaut's not great at what with the rework (which was quite a while ago).  But Juggernaut's still better than the other 1*s by far.

    So if a player REALLY wants to collect 1* Storm or whoever instead of 1* Juggernaut, I'd say sure, it probably won't hurt too much.  But if a player doesn't have a specific reason to collect a different 1*, I'd say 1* Juggernaut is definitely the way to go.
  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah, I was thinking purely within the context of DDQ. Since we're talking to someone who's in the 3* transition, I thought it safe to assume that they don't need their 1* in other play modes. The choice of which 1* to keep isn't really going to be a huge deal for much of anyone beyond the first few weeks of play, so why not go with the one that they like the character best?
  • AardvarkPepper
    AardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    Yeah, I was thinking purely within the context of DDQ. Since we're talking to someone who's in the 3* transition, I thought it safe to assume that they don't need their 1* in other play modes. The choice of which 1* to keep isn't really going to be a huge deal for much of anyone beyond the first few weeks of play, so why not go with the one that they like the character best?
    Because it's bad practice.

    If you're in a restaurant, and someone mixed up all the ingredients for soup, and is stirring the pot with their finger, you can say "well they washed their hands thoroughly" or "the pot's going to be boiled later so any bacteria will probably be killed" or "there aren't any customers back here that can see" or "the pot's not boiling now so the finger isn't going to be burnt".  But generally it's just not good practice to stir stuff with your fingers anyways, because if you get in the habit, one day you'll do it when a customer's looking on, or the pot's boiling, or maybe someone didn't wash their hands, or whatever.  So why not just use a spoon?  Sure you have to go to all the trouble of washing the spoon, but it's just good practice.

    Good practice should be the standard.  Bad practice should be the deviation.

    Sure "bad practice" is a strong term.  But then, it's not really "good" practice so . . . what is it?  Maybe I could call it "not so good practice"?  I don't think we should recommend "not so good" practices either though.

    Besides which the OP didn't specify a 1* preference.  So why not use good practice instead of bad, should be the question.  Why NOT use 1* Juggernaut?

    If a poster specifically states they have a preference, as in

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75522/roster-help-for-rookie/p1

    (which isn't this thread) - then hey all right, even though I'd probably still mention 1* Juggernaut, at least whoever it is, is making an informed decision.

    ==

    I've been playing this game a long time, and at some point I just had to draw the line on bad advice, or even indifferent advice.  This is not so much directed at @TPF Alexis who I think generally makes good points, and is usually in my experience fairly polite.

    But I've read so much bad advice.  So much.  "You shouldn't collect any 2*s or 1*s, you should collect all the 4*s and 5*s you can, the rarer the better.  You should collect all the 3*s before you start collecting 4*s.  It doesn't matter what characters you collect in any tier, they're all about the same.  You should open all tokens as soon as you get them.  You should never open tokens.  You should spend money all the time.  Alliance rewards are not worth considering, so you shouldn't worry whether your alliance places well or not."  And on and on.  I mean . . . really.  I've read these (and more) opinions from various very sincere people, sometimes very adamant, sometimes very sure of themselves, and some of them nasty or dismissive but that's as it goes.  At some point, I just said "Nope, I'm not going to tolerate this any more" and I just started calling everything like I saw it.  I call everything out.  Why not?  I have an opinion too, and I dare say usually a moderately well informed opinion at that.

    (Though there are definitely things I *could* be wrong about, and things I know I don't know about . . . e.g. my opinion is 3* Cyclops is only "good" for those players in the late 3*-4* transition and in that case he's a multi-bomb character with a chunk of hit points when boosted, so that's why he's ranked highly on some character ranking lists - but my opinion is players that are prioritizing which characters to use for PvE and PvP are better off concentrating on 3* Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Hawkeye, Kamala Khan, Captain America, Thanos, Deadpool, Scarlet Witch, Iron Fist, Black Widow, Magneto, then probably five or six others before Cyclops even becomes a consideration, because 3* Cyclops weak board shakeup and late damage mean health pack usage in most PvE scenarios and . . . reasons.  And as for things I'm ignorant about, certain PvP practices that I won't get into for various reasons here, but most certainly I know there are things I could learn about).

    Anyways though 1* Juggernaut vs 1* Spiderman wasn't the original topic of the original post (note I *did* respond at some length to the original post, though not exhaustively and to the best of my ability, I think I at least made *some* legitimate points worth considering) - when the topic came up, instead of just saying "it doesn't really matter", I said "it DOES matter, even if just a little bit", and wrote up that nice block of text about why 1* Juggernaut is in practice far superior to 1* Spiderman on teams.

    Sure there are specific caveats, for those interested in the minutiae.  But if I were advising a new player, or any player, on what to roster, I'd say one 1* Juggernaut.  For those not interested in a discussion, all right, they can just take "one 1*, 1* Juggernaut" and move on.  But for those that are interested, all right, there are many supporting points, some of which I've put up (though I could go into more detail, like damage at different SCLs and health pack usage and how a blanket of hit points works in practice and various semi-viable teams 1* Juggernaut ends up on and the relatively few semi-viable teams 1* Spiderman ends up on, and what the relative synergies are and all that - and mind this discussion in detail really does exist, it might seem from the length of this post that I go on and on, but this really is the truncated version . . .).

    But for heaven's sake let's not just say "it doesn't REALLY matter does it" because it matters.  Just a wee bit maybe, but even so.
  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Because subjective aspects matter as well. It's a game. If you're not enjoying it, there's no point. And when the difference in numerical value is as small as that between those four 1* for a 3* player, going with the one you like can be the difference between sticking around and burning out. Certainly it's not a big enough difference to be worth insisting that only one is a possible option, right? The other three can do the job that needs to be done. That makes them good enough for the purpose at hand. Nowhere did I claim that they were superior, or even equal characters. I just said to look at all the options, and consider non-mechanical factors when the difference in performance is small enough.
    I know I'm in the minority on this on the forums, but that's partly why I bring stuff like this up. The characters and the history they have for me through ~30 years of reading Marvel comics and almost 20 of watching movies about them are the reason I'm still excited about this game having played MPQ for at least an hour or two every single one of the last 720 days instead of getting bored after a few weeks like I did with Bejeweled.
  • AardvarkPepper
    AardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    Because subjective aspects matter as well. It's a game. If you're not enjoying it, there's no point. And when the difference in numerical value is as small as that between those four 1* for a 3* player, going with the one you like can be the difference between sticking around and burning out. Certainly it's not a big enough difference to be worth insisting that only one is a possible option, right? The other three can do the job that needs to be done. That makes them good enough for the purpose at hand. Nowhere did I claim that they were superior, or even equal characters. I just said to look at all the options, and consider non-mechanical factors when the difference in performance is small enough.
    I know I'm in the minority on this on the forums, but that's partly why I bring stuff like this up. The characters and the history they have for me through ~30 years of reading Marvel comics and almost 20 of watching movies about them are the reason I'm still excited about this game having played MPQ for at least an hour or two every single one of the last 720 days instead of getting bored after a few weeks like I did with Bejeweled.
    Let's just unpack that post a little.

    1)  "If you're not enjoying it, there's no point".  Implying that what I write is going to make players not enjoy the game.  But let's be clear.   If you want to say there's another valid perspective, so be it.   But there's no need to attack another position simply because you don't hold it.

    And if you feel that I'm guilty of that myself (and why not?  because I am, even if my attack is by omission) - think on it.  The more decisions a player makes that aren't "optimal", the more time they'll waste.  I remember one player saying farming 2*s was a dumb idea, and I think I showed using his own provided figures that not farming 2*s added up to on the order of $700 per year in in-game assets.

    When people come on the board and ask for advice, do you think it proper to give "proper practice" advice, and let them sort out for themselves how much they want to deviate for "fun" purposes?  Or do you think it proper to give "fun" advice and let them sort out for themselves what "proper practice" is?

    Because I'll say, in my experience, "fun" advice is no advice at all.  "Just do whatever you like!"  is great for things that don't matter.  But try to get good results by following unstructured advice, and you end up with a mess.  And to me, messes are the antithesis of fun.

    I grant that my individual preferences aren't everyone's preferences.  But I don't see what purpose it serves to give unspecific and improper practice advice to players that are *asking for advice*.  What sort of advice should I give?  "It doesn't matter"?  Come now.

    2)  "The difference is small" - dismissing things that you consider unimportant because, well, you consider them unimportant.  Well let's think on it, really think on it.  If a player early in the 2*-3* transition spends 3 hours a day on PvE, an hour a day on PvP, and two hours a day on Lightning Rounds (say they're playing all the rounds when they're available), that's a time investment of 34 hours a week, almost a full time job.  Multiply that by 52 (weeks), then by 7.50, which is minimum wage in the United States of America, and you come to $13,260.  Sure, you can debate the finer points, so let's slash that in half to $6,630 for a less fervent player.  Now consider how much a player may spend on roster slots and store promotions and other things.

    So really if you want to take the "big picture" it almost doesn't matter how much a player spends on the game, because they're already spending so much time on the game that it's adding up to a lot in opportunity costs anyways.  What's another $100 or $200 or $2000 if you're already looking at an investment of $6,630?  So by this "logic" EVERYONE should be spending on MPQ, and not just a little.  At the very least, everyone should be monthly VIPs, and let's face it, it takes a while to build up 4*s and 5*s so why not buy from the store now and then?  Maybe a few Stark Salaries too.  I mean what's a few hundred more dollars or even a couple thousand on top of the six thousand *per year* already in there?  (Oh, all right, you can say it's more than that.  Six thousand just for the sake of argument though.)

    And that's where you get when you start going into "big picture" thinking.  The more you start saying "the difference is small", the more you start giving advice that isn't necessarily appropriate to other players' preferences, the more the argument underlying statements is "why not" rather than "why".  And to my mind, that's not a properly structured argument at all.

    Though I recognize the validity of your personal preferences, again, it's not the validity of your personal preferences that is in question.  The question is whether you give *advice* to players based on those personal preferences.

    And that is where we differ.  For my part, certainly my personal preference is to make the optimal choice given limited budget and limited time, optimal being determined by game structure and mechanics, and I respect that may not be a "fun" choice.  But in terms of giving advice?  Instruction manuals may not be "fun" but being "fun" is not their function.  What is the purpose of asking and receiving advice if it is not for the purpose of doing what is "optimal"?

    Again, I respect the validity of your personal preferences @TPF Alexis.  But to my mind, giving advice has less to do with personal preference of the advisor, and more to do with giving "optimal" advice at least to the point that whoever's asking the question can make an informed decision.

    3)  "Insisting that there's only one possible option" - there was no insistence.  I stated the optimal practice in relatively few words, you took exception and said there were other "valid" choices, I wrote to some extent why that isn't quite the case and why the optimal choice *is* optimal.  Optimal doesn't mean "only".  There is no dogmatic insistence here that "my way is the only right way".  I made my points, and if you disagree, that's your prerogative.  I won't even fault you if you haven't come up with any counters to any of the specific points I made.  The fact you have a different opinion is of itself a nod to the validity of dissenting opinions.  Even if you can't express the reasons why you disagree, there must be some reason behind that disagreement.

    However, I will point out that if you can't or won't identify points to disagree on, if there are no facts in contention, then points I have made are not refuted either.  Implying that someone is wrong because they have a dogmatic and fixed mindset is an ad hominem argument, and though I'd argue that even ad hominem arguments have *some* validity, again - ad hominem arguments don't refute points either.

    4)  "Consider non-mechanical factors with the difference in performance is small enough" - I think we agree that for regular players that invest a good bit of time and follow optimal practices, the difference in performance ends up being small - though again, I'll restate that Juggernaut's 1100 damage for 6 red AP versus Spiderman's 662 damage ends up being a good bit better even though Juggernaut self-harms for 550 (mind Juggernaut also has 3520 vs Spidey's 2754), simply because being able to KO an enemy that would otherwise do damage can save a player from taking more damage than the self-harm ends up inflicting - and again, 6 green AP to destroy 16 random tiles, including possibly enemy Specials, can again prevent damage, even if not destroying dangerous enemy Countdowns outright, at least putting them in position to be matched away (and note that though Juggernaut's green power does damage according to his 1* scale, it ends up on the level of something like 200 damage, which isn't too bad compared to Spidey's low damage powers) - at any rate, even though that difference might be worth considering more at PvE SCL 4, once you make the push to SCL 6 or 7, it really is negligble.

    BUT

    As "negligible" as the difference is, it is there, and it affects players until they really *do* totally shift out of 1*s.  And just when does that happen?  In practical terms, it's when a 3520 hit point blanket just isn't enough, and enemy match damage and powers is enough that it either kills Juggernaut outright, or at least reduces him to such low hit points that he needs to use health packs (as compared to the 8000+ hit point of almost any championed 3*, excepting the really fragile ones like 3* Loki).  But, as I mentioned before, if you're using Juggernaut, he ends up with a slightly better life expectancy than Spiderman, because his powers are harder hitting and more effective and Juggernaut has more hit points.  Once you're running 3*s, pretty much you don't want to screw around with Spidey's powers that do 662 or 250 and generate only random criticals that may get a bit of AP, it's just not worth it.  But Juggernaut does 1100, and though even 1100 isn't that great, 6 AP to destroy 16 tiles means a quarter of the board.  Not even 3*s do that.  Which doesn't make 1* Juggernaut great or even good later on, but it's not like he's as completely irrelevant as 1* Spiderman is, not quite as quickly.

    "I know I'm in the minority on this on the forums" - so what if you're a minority?  If you're a minority you don't have a right to an opinion?  I'm a minority too, who else writes detailed text walls?  Anyways whether you're a minority or not, you have your opinion, your opinion is valid at least for yourself personally, and that's just fine.

    Again - even if you read through what I wrote and agree about advice better being structured and "good practice" type advice - it doesn't mean having fun *isn't* a point either.  It is.  I'm just saying "just have fun" advice has its place, and that "just have fun" doesn't negate the good and proper reasons for giving optimal advice is all.

    Anyways, enjoy the game and the forums.

  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    First off, no attack on you was intended. If it was there, I apologize for my sloppy wording.
    I'm not responding to individual points because I don't disagree with any of your reasoning. I was only trying to add to what you had said, not counter it. We have the same stated goal, to provide people with the knowledge to make an informed decision. We just have different conceptions of what knowledge is necessary for that. To me, knowing all the viable options, even the sub-optimal ones, is important to be able to make an informed decision. I'm not specifically advocating for other choices, just mentioning that they are present, and viable for the specific circumstance discussed in the paragraph I first replied to.
    Note, please, that I didn't recommend that people try to solo 1* DDQ with Yelena or Hawkeye or something. I'm not going to be giving people advice that's outright bad, just trying to provide a broad as well as deep knowledge base.