Classic legends full

therightwaye
therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
in MPQ General Discussion
So classic legends has 12 characters in it. Are they going to start removing the oldest ones soon?

Not being able to get Silver Surfer covers might be legit reason to be done for me.
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Comments

  • Neuromancer
    Neuromancer Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    My assumption was that they were going to allow Classics to fill endlessly, as there are no other ways to get 5*s other than that vault. But we all know what happens when you assume.

    If they do remove The Surfer, I suspect they'll put Classics into a vault rotation akin to DP Tacos. Removing him from the game completely would be a pretty bad call. I admit, he's one of my favorite heroes.
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    Ah maybe that's what CL 9/10 will be. Access to Silver Surfer
  • Neuromancer
    Neuromancer Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    Nevermind, they probably will pull him, and they'll state that he's still available through their favoring system. His odds of draft will tank, but they'll state that dilution would have given you worse odds. Now is the moment to buy him also selected as your only favored 5*, as these will be the best odds of drafting him you will see in a very long time.
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    This is the lamest
  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    Time for 6* and a new token, baby!
  • Wobby
    Wobby Posts: 286 Mover and Shaker
    Punisher5784 said:
    You can easily get SS. Make him your BH and after you pull 20-30 5*s you'll get a color you have 6 covers in :D 
    Already done it twice! I've got an awesome 2/5/7 Surfer. 
  • halirin
    halirin Posts: 327 Mover and Shaker
    therightwaye said:
    Ah maybe that's what CL 9/10 will be. Access to Silver Surfer
    No iso or other prizes in CL9/10, exclusively silver surfer prizes. 
  • Hendross
    Hendross Posts: 762 Critical Contributor
    Punisher5784 said:
    You can easily get SS. Make him your BH and after you pull 20-30 5*s you'll get a color you have 6 covers in :D 
    I think you mean ~133 pulls, since Bonus Hero rate is .75% (5% of 15%).  What a **** system.
  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    WIth SS, I keep getting the blues.

    I just need two reds. 5/1/5 is a very sad state, because you never pull a cover for him, and when you do, it's completely useless.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,187 Chairperson of the Boards
    I've been saying that they will start vaulting 5*s, and perhaps in a month or so we will see it happen.  It seems like it would fit into their overall plan.  I'm hoping that at the same time they will introduce a new way to obtain 5*s, such as a new SCL with 5* rewards.  Perhaps DDQ will be revamped again with 5* rewards. 

    The other way they could go is to introduce SCL 9 with LT rewards and more CP, so that obtaining 5*s is still pure luck. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    If they just made a 3rd CP token with all the vaulted 4*s they'd have a place to move the oldest characters too.  

    Even better (IMO):

    Latest -  3 5* / 12 4* - 25 CP - Only have the latest of both.
    Classics - 12 5* / 12 4* - 20 CP - Have the next older set of both 4* and 5* (not the same 12 4* as in latest)
    Vintage - all remaining 5*s and 4*s - 15 CP - Grows until dilution becomes high enough that they make a 4th pool (or a new higher tier and make 4* accessible at lower token levels).
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,187 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    If they just made a 3rd CP token with all the vaulted 4*s they'd have a place to move the oldest characters too.  

    Even better (IMO):

    Latest -  3 5* / 12 4* - 25 CP - Only have the latest of both.
    Classics - 12 5* / 12 4* - 20 CP - Have the next older set of both 4* and 5* (not the same 12 4* as in latest)
    Vintage - all remaining 5*s and 4*s - 15 CP - Grows until dilution becomes high enough that they make a 4th pool (or a new higher tier and make 4* accessible at lower token levels).
    yeah, I've thought of this design as well.  It's good because it gives players a choice and the CP prices are fair.

    but.................

    Newer players could take advantage of this and always pull the cheapest 15 CP Legendary token and quickly cover the oldest 4*s and 5*s, which may not seem fair.  Perhaps the Vintage token should be 20 CP to fix that.
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    I have no problem with letting people have access or even easier access to older or newer characters. I just don't like the idea of making it much more difficult to obtain full covers. But whatever, the match game has become a fishing game. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    bbigler said:

    but.................

    Newer players could take advantage of this and always pull the cheapest 15 CP Legendary token and quickly cover the oldest 4*s and 5*s, which may not seem fair.  Perhaps the Vintage token should be 20 CP to fix that.
    I'm not sure how this wouldn't seem fair. Vets who don't have them fully covered or want levels from them can choose to do that and burn through them even quicker and have a head start.

    Ultimately this gives something the game is severely lacking choice vs RNG.  You choose where how to invest in growing your characters.  

    I think this would also attack the problem that vaulting made much worse of now we're constantly fighting the same teams of newest 4*s (at least I am)
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    If they just made a 3rd CP token with all the vaulted 4*s they'd have a place to move the oldest characters too.  

    Even better (IMO):

    Latest -  3 5* / 12 4* - 25 CP - Only have the latest of both.
    Classics - 12 5* / 12 4* - 20 CP - Have the next older set of both 4* and 5* (not the same 12 4* as in latest)
    Vintage - all remaining 5*s and 4*s - 15 CP - Grows until dilution becomes high enough that they make a 4th pool (or a new higher tier and make 4* accessible at lower token levels).
    I don't like arbitrarily tying progress in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It would create a dilemma for newer players trying to advance as quickly as possible.  Since they are winning Latest LTs with some frequency and always pulling the 12 newest 4*s they will want to buy classics to draw from the same pool, but they always want to maximize their CP but buying a Vintage token adds too much dilution to make meaningful progress....but the Vintage pool of 5s is now incredibly small and incredibly cheap - so maybe they just try to skip the 4* tier completely by pulling SS/OML/PHX from Vintage tokens at 15 CP a pop - cover all 3 for under 4k CP most likely.

    It would be especially terrible for me since I have OML/PHX/SS champed and would like that cheap vintage token for champ levels, but would HATE all the vaulted 4s that I don't have champed and would prefer not to champ at this point.

    Not to mention the 5* tier is already saturated with PHX/OML combos and that cheap 15 CP entry to the 5* tier would really kill diversity there.

    I don't know what the solution is to classics dilution, but I don't think that's it.  I know D3 wouldn't like it, but honestly increasing the 5* draw rate in classics to 20% would help without flooding the game with 5*s.
  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't know.. I love fighting against OML/PHX teams! (I mostly use OML/PHX myself). They are much easier to beat than the Thanos/BP teams I see.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    All the logic for vaulting away 75%+ of the 4* tier would apply as reasons to start with SS on the 5* tier...  


    I wasn't a fan of those reasons before and wouldn't be a fan of em now...   but I think the real issue is that the 4->5* transition has been awful for quite a while.  If the transition were better they could come out with more new 5*s than 4*s and cease expanding the 4* pool (and all the problems they've created and subsequently introduced by trying to fix)


    I'd far rather have a ~40 character sized pool of 4*s with a 25+ and growing pool of 5*s and a good transition from the 4* tier to the 5* tier than what we have, and what it looks like we're barreling towards.  That would cause them to think hard about better ways to make 5*s attainable, which might put off the big spenders unless you give em another carrot to drool over (and buy)


    With a pool of 40 characters, or even 60 characters and no additional expansion, the whole dilution craziness looks far less ominous, it was something that was deemed not worth fixing on the 3* tier and not addressed until it grew past 40 on the 4* tier...

  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    broll said:
    If they just made a 3rd CP token with all the vaulted 4*s they'd have a place to move the oldest characters too.  

    Even better (IMO):

    Latest -  3 5* / 12 4* - 25 CP - Only have the latest of both.
    Classics - 12 5* / 12 4* - 20 CP - Have the next older set of both 4* and 5* (not the same 12 4* as in latest)
    Vintage - all remaining 5*s and 4*s - 15 CP - Grows until dilution becomes high enough that they make a 4th pool (or a new higher tier and make 4* accessible at lower token levels).
    I don't like arbitrarily tying progress in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It would create a dilemma for newer players trying to advance as quickly as possible.  Since they are winning Latest LTs with some frequency and always pulling the 12 newest 4*s they will want to buy classics to draw from the same pool, but they always want to maximize their CP but buying a Vintage token adds too much dilution to make meaningful progress....but the Vintage pool of 5s is now incredibly small and incredibly cheap - so maybe they just try to skip the 4* tier completely by pulling SS/OML/PHX from Vintage tokens at 15 CP a pop - cover all 3 for under 4k CP most likely.

    It would be especially terrible for me since I have OML/PHX/SS champed and would like that cheap vintage token for champ levels, but would HATE all the vaulted 4s that I don't have champed and would prefer not to champ at this point.

    Not to mention the 5* tier is already saturated with PHX/OML combos and that cheap 15 CP entry to the 5* tier would really kill diversity there.

    I don't know what the solution is to classics dilution, but I don't think that's it.  I know D3 wouldn't like it, but honestly increasing the 5* draw rate in classics to 20% would help without flooding the game with 5*s.
    I don't think it's arbitrary.  As things continue to grow it will eventually be the same problem for 5* as 4*, it might take a year, but it will get their.  If they think they have a solution to dilusion why would they wait for it to get out of hand before applying it?

    As far as the saturating the 5* teir with OML/PHX/SS, we're already there.  Their 'solution' to dilution introduced that same problem to the 4* tier so they must not have that big of a problem with it.

    Also this made me laugh:
    "It would be especially terrible for me since I have OML/PHX/SS champed and would like that cheap vintage token for champ levels, but would HATE all the vaulted 4s that I don't have champed and would prefer not to champ at this point."
    The real reason you're trying to shove vaulting down everyone's throat.  Even if there are problems with the vaulted 4* level, you simply don't care because they don't concern you at your roster level / roster plan.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    broll said:
    If they just made a 3rd CP token with all the vaulted 4*s they'd have a place to move the oldest characters too.  

    Even better (IMO):

    Latest -  3 5* / 12 4* - 25 CP - Only have the latest of both.
    Classics - 12 5* / 12 4* - 20 CP - Have the next older set of both 4* and 5* (not the same 12 4* as in latest)
    Vintage - all remaining 5*s and 4*s - 15 CP - Grows until dilution becomes high enough that they make a 4th pool (or a new higher tier and make 4* accessible at lower token levels).
    I don't like arbitrarily tying progress in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It would create a dilemma for newer players trying to advance as quickly as possible.  Since they are winning Latest LTs with some frequency and always pulling the 12 newest 4*s they will want to buy classics to draw from the same pool, but they always want to maximize their CP but buying a Vintage token adds too much dilution to make meaningful progress....but the Vintage pool of 5s is now incredibly small and incredibly cheap - so maybe they just try to skip the 4* tier completely by pulling SS/OML/PHX from Vintage tokens at 15 CP a pop - cover all 3 for under 4k CP most likely.

    It would be especially terrible for me since I have OML/PHX/SS champed and would like that cheap vintage token for champ levels, but would HATE all the vaulted 4s that I don't have champed and would prefer not to champ at this point.

    Not to mention the 5* tier is already saturated with PHX/OML combos and that cheap 15 CP entry to the 5* tier would really kill diversity there.

    I don't know what the solution is to classics dilution, but I don't think that's it.  I know D3 wouldn't like it, but honestly increasing the 5* draw rate in classics to 20% would help without flooding the game with 5*s.
    I don't think it's arbitrary.  As things continue to grow it will eventually be the same problem for 5* as 4*, it might take a year, but it will get their.  If they think they have a solution to dilusion why would they wait for it to get out of hand before applying it?

    As far as the saturating the 5* teir with OML/PHX/SS, we're already there.  Their 'solution' to dilution introduced that same problem to the 4* tier so they must not have that big of a problem with it.

    Also this made me laugh:
    "It would be especially terrible for me since I have OML/PHX/SS champed and would like that cheap vintage token for champ levels, but would HATE all the vaulted 4s that I don't have champed and would prefer not to champ at this point."
    The real reason you're trying to shove vaulting down everyone's throat.  Even if there are problems with the vaulted 4* level, you simply don't care because they don't concern you at your roster level / roster plan.
    They "solved" dilution in the 5* tier with Latest Legendary tokens a while back.  It's the same thing as the current 4* solution - a fixed number of characters for a relatively fixed amount of time.  The problem with the 5* tier is the "solution" to vaulting that everyone keeps proposing (putting all the vaulted 4s in a classics token) and that is continued dilution of the older characters.  The biggest difference between the 4* and 5* tiers though is that there are no direct 5* rewards.  So if they vaulted any 5*s they would just be gone forever except for BH which has such a disastrously low rate on 5*s that it almost may as well not exist.

    So yeah, maybe a CL9/10 with 5* progression/placement rewards or some special vaults with older 5* covers in them would allow for some type of vaulting solution to be executed at the 5* tier?  I don't know.

    I'm not shoving vaulting down anyone's throat, the devs are.  There are things that I like about it, and things that I don't, and I've been very clear about my reasoning regardless of whatever **** you want to make up and try to claim as my justification.

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