PSA about 4* Thor

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Comments

  • SquareSquare Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
    I will never not be impressed by the ability of fanboys, who, much more likely than not, have never once suffered any racism in their lives, to play the race card.

    15796995447_3e5c875038_o.png

    What was my bigotry? My point was, it's okay if The Falcon plays Captain America for a storyline. Compared to others frustration at agendas and conspiracies. I suppose if you were a strong believer in agendas and conspiracies, I might seem like a bigot, but, well, I'm totally a straight white man, so you'll all have to trust me that I'm not anti-white.

    The main reason I stepped in here is that, on other sites, such as Tumblr, I get super worn out by the social activism there, it never ends. It's so endless, the rage and frustration against straight white guys, and I think it's out of proportion. Then I get to threads like this, and I see the lame, lame anger that there is a Muslim hero, or a black Captain America, or a mixed race guy replaced the Ultimate Spider-Man, or a lady being Thor for six months, and it's saddening. I'd like to think that straight white guys can handle hearing it from someone in the same group than one of 'them,' but it's not the case. I knew it already, but I tried. Make no mistake, the people complaining about this stuff for 'reasons' need to reflect on what it is that really bugs them. Go on Tumblr, send Brian Michael Bendis a friendly question, and ask him why Miles Morales is black/hispanic. Ask him if it's an agenda on Marvel's part. He might well reply. He replies to asks a few times a week. This is a serious suggestion to those who think Joe Quesada only accepts character changes that are politically correct (despite the fact that two major story lines in the past few years, Bucky as Cap, and Doc Ock as Spidey, were all white, with no social engineering). Ask the creator still writing Miles Morales, and see what he says. If you choose not to ask, or to ignore his answer, that's a sign that you have made up your mind without considering the actual state of things.

    Here's his Tumblr. Go for it, find out if it's a quota system or whatever:
    http://brianmichaelbendis.tumblr.com/ask

    He's right there, willing to tell you the truth about this supposed agenda. This is on you guys to prove this agenda, not the mass of people totally fine with the changing world of comics. You can call me a racist/bigot however much you want, but it doesn't change how things actually are. I'm fine with the white male characters there, and I'm fine with non-white, non-male ones. The people who think I'm racist? They're not fine with that.
  • Square wrote:
    I will never not be impressed by the ability of fanboys, who, much more likely than not, have never once suffered any racism in their lives, to play the race card.

    15796995447_3e5c875038_o.png

    What was my bigotry?

    "Straight white guys see conspiracies everywhere."

    This is a bigoted statement, and self-evidently so. A major thrust of your "argument" is "othering" people whose gender is male, whose skin is pale, and whose preference is for the opposite sex, and dismissing their arguments based on their personal characteristics, not the soundness of their positions. This is despicable.

    You don't know me; you don't know whether or not I've faced racism; and on the internet, where nobody knows you're a dog, you can't assume that I'm a straight white male.
    Square wrote:
    I'd like to think that straight white guys can handle hearing it from someone in the same group than one of 'them,' but it's not the case. I knew it already, but I tried.
    ...
    You can call me a racist/bigot however much you want, but it doesn't change how things actually are. I'm fine with the white male characters there, and I'm fine with non-white, non-male ones. The people who think I'm racist? They're not fine with that.

    I don't care one whit whether you're white, black, hispanic, asian, or any or all of the above. I don't care if you're straight, gay, bi, or "it's complicated." I don't care whether you identify as male, female, or some designation of your own design. What *matters* is the quality of your arguments, and yours suck. In this thread, you have denigrated and dismissed "straight white guys" as "fanboys" who "need to be dragged into the twenty-first century." That's straight up bigotry, and needs to be called out as such.

    The implication that "people who disagree with me don't like non-white, non-male superheroes because they are racist and sexist" is bad-faith projection. Speaking only for myself, I have no problem with female or non-white superheroes; in fact, there are several that I like quite a lot. Diversity can add a lot of range to the available stories to be told...but those stories need to be interesting, engaging, and worthwhile. There are just as many tired, overused, preachy tropes centered around female or non-white protagonists as there are centered around straight white males.
  • MoralMoral Posts: 512
    _RiO_ wrote:
    We don't know if the female that took up Mjolnir is actually of royal descent.
    We know Thor Odinson, a.k.a. the original Thor, is. But he's hardly a princess. icon_e_wink.gif

    You're wrong. Thor Odinson is totally a Disney Princess.

    Have you seen his hair?

    But we need a signature musical number to make it official. Every Disney Princess breaks into song at key moments in the story.
  • SquareSquare Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
    Vairelome wrote:
    you can't assume that I'm a straight white male.
    Honestly, are you a straight white male? Say you're not, and prove me wrong. Unfortunately, even if you aren't, the fact is that the great majority of vocal fanboys are, so I would win the argument either way. It really is straight white guys complaining about this stuff. Do you think SWGs are the minority? But I would bet my lunch for the next month that you are, since people outside of any given group rarely get upset about anything that doesn't involve them personally. It's not racism to use statistical probability, as long as you keep a context in mind. Probability says you are a straight white guy. No insult, just life long experience.

    I think I've spent a lot of time attacking the soundness of these fanboy positions. Read my posts in this thread, a lot of attacking of soundness has gone on. You aren't interested in addressing those points, since you're busy being offended as a straight white guy and the racism that I can't possibly know you've suffered. Illuminate me, and the forum, rather than just be offended at the notion of it. Prove me wrong in fact, rather than in principle.

    As I wrote before, SWGs will have to be satisfied with having a majority of media aimed directly at them, despite being a minority of the people. They will kick and scream as it changes though....

    So, you like a lot of stories about female or non-white superheroes, tell us your opinions on the new Thor and Captain America. I'm interested, I'm listening. Please, tell me.
  • Well this has been a very amusing read. Makes a change from the usual stuff. Well done all.
  • SquareSquare Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
    Vairelome, I just saw the rest of your down voting on my posts here. No obligation to reply. There is a zero percent chance that you are not a straight white guy. I wouldn't just bet my lunch, I'd bet my family and house on it.
    15958106406_57e98ff3b3_z.jpg

    Feel free to open every post I have on this forum and down vote it. I got it. You feel strongly about the Falcon not being Cap. Someone changed your thing.
  • Square wrote:
    Vairelome wrote:
    you can't assume that I'm a straight white male.
    Honestly, are you a straight white male? Say you're not, and prove me wrong. Unfortunately, even if you aren't, the fact is that the great majority of vocal fanboys are, so I would win the argument either way. It really is straight white guys complaining about this stuff. Do you think SWGs are the minority? But I would bet my lunch for the next month that you are, since people outside of any given group rarely get upset about anything that doesn't involve them personally. It's not racism to use statistical probability, as long as you keep a context in mind. Probability says you are a straight white guy. No insult, just life long experience.

    I think I've spent a lot of time attacking the soundness of these fanboy positions. Read my posts in this thread, a lot of attacking of soundness has gone on. You aren't interested in addressing those points, since you're busy being offended as a straight white guy and the racism that I can't possibly know you've suffered. Illuminate me, and the forum, rather than just be offended at the notion of it. Prove me wrong in fact, rather than in principle.

    As I wrote before, SWGs will have to be satisfied with having a majority of media aimed directly at them, despite being a minority of the people. They will kick and scream as it changes though....

    So, you like a lot of stories about female or non-white superheroes, tell us your opinions on the new Thor and Captain America. I'm interested, I'm listening. Please, tell me.

    You're wrong. Beyond that, I'm not interested in giving personally-identifying information to a troll on the internet. Good luck on your month-long lunch fast; maybe it will teach you something.

    Explain to me again how your views aren't racist because of "statistical probability"? This should be precious. Also, I'm confused: earlier you said that you were a straight white male, but now you are referring to them as a "they" that will "kick and scream...." Is this a headmate thing? I'm not up on all of the latest Tumblr-speak.
  • Omega RedOmega Red Posts: 366 Mover and Shaker
    Back in the early 2000's, Joe Quesada had his own message board where he interacted with fans. I was a member of that forum. When Ultimate Nick Fury was announced there was of course a reaction and controversy. The discussion seen in this thread is nothing new. If I remember correctly, Joe wanted Utimate Cap to be black but Brian Michael Bendis opposed the idea because the character was born white and the reason why he was born white was important. So they ended up creating Samuel L. Jackson Fury -which we can all agree is an awesome character and an upgrade from the original- and publishing the Captain America mini-series "Truth". To my knowledge, Joe and Bendis -and quite probably many others- have been very vocal about diversity in comic-books. No need to go ask them, they have expressed their sentiment openly and with candidness. They DO HAVE an "agenda", which by itself is not a bad thing by any means.

    A few things I would like to clarify:

    1.- I support diversity in US comic-books. And this is not only rethoric. When I was a kid I read Wonder woman, Huntress and Spider-woman comics. Over the years I bought, read and enjoyed series with those characters and many more: "Sensational She-hulk", "Shadowhawk", "Birds of prey", "Manhunter", "Fallen angel", all of Sam Kieth's stuff, etc. I did not buy any of them because they represented a cause tough, I bought them because they rocked.

    2.- There are different strategies to introduce diversity characters. I oppose to the idea of making new characters but giving them old, established "white straight guy" identities -Muslim Marvel, Morales Ultimate Spider-man-. I think diversity characters should be their own person and have their own identities -Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage, Bishop, Falcon, etc.-. The first strategy is replacing, the second one is integrating. The difference might be subtle but it is important.

    3.- I despise the use of any political flag to score P.R. points or sell a product. This is what Marvel has done with the latest changes to major characters, they call the papers to let them know they are being progressive. I find that to be despicable.

    4.- I despise militant, engaged, partisan expressions regardless of what cause they push for and regardless of whether I agree with the cause or not. This applies to journalism, literature, movies and yes, comic-books as well. I watch the news to be properly informed, not to be indoctrinated. These type of expressions are barely little more than propaganda and they are an insult to the audience intelligence. The exchange between Odin and Freyja falls in this cathegory.
  • IlDuderinoIlDuderino Age Unconfirmed Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    Can we get this thread locked? It's kind of degenerated at this point.

    I think you had a good point
  • emaker27emaker27 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 285 Mover and Shaker
    Square wrote:
    Honestly, are you a straight white male?

    What if I told you he was... Derek Jeter?!
  • IlDuderino wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    Can we get this thread locked? It's kind of degenerated at this point.

    I think you had a good point

    Another vote for thread lock. Use the blue kind. It works great.

    Everyone can go argue somewhere else.

    'Merica
  • DayvDayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    Im not going to lick this thread, but I am going to move it to off-topic. Opposing sides may continue to debate, but this really isn't about the game anymore.
  • GothicKratosGothicKratos Posts: 1,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    I wouldn't lick this thread either. It's Tumblr 101, and God knows what diseases it has in all that rot.
  • Spider_JerusalemSpider_Jerusalem Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
    I call her THORGINA because it's Thor with a tinykitty.

    Get it?
  • _RiO_ wrote:
    rvs623 wrote:
    Please be respectful to the character and those who created her and don't call her female derivative names of Thor as if she's meant to be a sidekick or something.

    Here's the thing: no matter what you do or say, she is a derivative of the original Thor.

    Thor turned female is nothing more than a cheap tactic by Marvel to both bait female readers and placate feminist outcry over cape comics being male-centric. Rather than coming up with a character that could stand on her own, they cannibalize Thor's character and then have their female derivative ride on the coattails of the popularity established by the original. Frankly, having the new character be such a derivative is kind of insulting to those same demographics Marvel is trying to appeal to. (Really; what kind of signal is this sending? She needs a male base to get any kind of popularity going?)


    Personally I think a light mocking of the name is just the right amount of respect to show this character and its creator. Marvel is stepping on a lot of toes with it, and they know they are. They already have their contingency scenario prepared and ready to go now that New Avengers has shown Odinson tap into his multiverse alternate's Mjolnir, which has the enchantment mirrored: "Whoever holds this hammer, if he prove unworthy, shall possess the power of Thorr".

    I agree its a bad move by Marvel especially if you want to attract new readers with it. How confusing for a new reader that Thor is a center piece of the marvel universe in the movies is a man? It makes no sense.
  • SquareSquare Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
    Vairelome wrote:
    You're wrong. Beyond that, I'm not interested in giving personally-identifying information to a troll on the internet. Good luck on your month-long lunch fast; maybe it will teach you something.

    Explain to me again how your views aren't racist because of "statistical probability"? This should be precious. Also, I'm confused: earlier you said that you were a straight white male, but now you are referring to them as a "they" that will "kick and scream...." Is this a headmate thing? I'm not up on all of the latest Tumblr-speak.
    I think you're so upset that you can't get things. A troll is someone who deliberately disagrees with others/harasses them to get a rise out of them. I honestly think people who complain about them changing our characters are a little, well, racist/sexist/etc. So no, I'm not a troll. That is a genuine opinion.

    As for not personally identifying yourself on the Internet by saying you're a straight white male? What? icon_eek.gif I'm sure over 80% of this forum is. I guess you are simply afraid of honest discussion, since you still can't actually address any point I made, and are hung up on the 'Racist!' point. Americans are way more hung up about racism than other countries people (with good reason, since there is far more friction there than most places in the world). I am not American. I also live in Japan, so I'm not so hung up on discussion of it. Statistically, Japan is 98.5% Japanese. Statistically, if I were to ring a doorbell, the person who would answer is most likely Japanese, statistically. Is that a clear example of how you can talk about race in terms of statistical probability and not be racist?

    "They" by the way, isn't a racial group, as you have assumed in a racist way. It is the fanboys who cry, about change. Some are very open minded about change. But the ones on the Internet are often very serious in their cries about change.
  • DayvDayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    DayvBang wrote:
    Im not going to lick this thread...
    *sigh*
  • SquareSquare Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
    Look at that, Bendis is such a friendly creator:
    15803362907_222a578c37_z.jpg
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Thorina is the best name.
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