Nerfing: is it a good thing?!

Unknown
edited September 2014 in MPQ General Discussion
Personally I hate it... Who spends money on a Ferrari and a month later get it exchanged for a Pinto...

That's why I'm happy I don't spend money in this game and probably a reason why ppl leave in droves. Ppl spend their time and money trying to create the best team/characters possible to only get their characters changed. I think it's ridiculous! What do u think?

Btw... Think the buff to xforce was cool...
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Comments

  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    If needed, YES.

    Power creep can ruin games completely.
  • Another note, if they decide to buff or nerf, they should at least be considerate to the players and allow ppl to readjust their skills to the new skill set being changed.
  • FierceKiwi
    FierceKiwi Posts: 505 Critical Contributor
    While pretty much by definition no one will like a nerf they are kinda needed since the alternative is to either leave obviously broken things in game or just buff everyone until they're all equally broken neither of which seem like they'd create 'fun' gameplay.
  • Hey c101nguyen. I agree with you. Characters should never be changed after the fact. Not even if, as one of the posters above said "it is needed". Sorry, I don't buy that. If a character is perceived to be too powerful, then another character can be invented to off set those powers. I now have Sentry at 3-3-4. Now I have to spend energy/money to complete the character. What incentive do I have to do that, when demiurge Al or "Ice" or any of the rest of that bunch decides that Sentry is too powerful. Upgrade characters at your own risk!! Truly, "nerfing" characters has to do with forcing players to invest in new players. Also, Classic Magneto had the ability to place and overwrite two tiles. Demiurge wanted to remove that ability so that the player would take more damage. Plain and simple. Withhold all financial support. Do not buy any covers, shields or health packs!!
  • Make up your minds people. You either want or do not want nerfs.

    If you search this forum about OP Cmags or Nerf CMags you will find millions of posts asking to nerf CMags pre-patch.
    Now after the patch you see whining all over the place. One thing is for sure... After Sentry gets nerfed (Due to the massive requests of the community) there will be again whining and QQ because again people spent money on him.

    Comparing Ferrari to a game is another thing which I will not comment because you just used it to dramatically increase the importance of what you where saying.

    I do not know what you try to get out from topics like this, but if you are seeking for people's opinions on the changes there is already plenty of topics out there. Just search and go give your own. There is a difference between a good character (like OBW or LThor) and an OP character (like pre-patch CMags or Sentry). OP is obviously a reason for a game to not be balanced, thus nerfs are obvious to come. Especially when people cry about how Sentry is impossible to deal with.

    You asked for it and you got it. Live with it. Your money is yours to spend, no one is forcing you to pay anyone for nothing.

    In many games you pay for something that later on you do not use it anymore due to better stuff coming out or it becomes inefficient. I do not think that MQP is an example of a direct rip-off. You got games out there that are build around stealing your money. At least this one offers you some satisfaction for it (At least to me). The developer has to somehow support itself in order for them patches you keep asking to come. So if you like it support it. If not quit or be a F2P.

    On other news... It's Friday! icon_e_biggrin.gif
  • We'll said!!

    I don't understand why people complain so much they shouldn't because sooner or later they'll have that character and when they do they're Gianna wish that it wasn't nerfed.
  • Nerfing is a good thing because Patchneto comprised like 85% of the teams I saw in PVP and simulator and it was boring as hell and made me not want to play the game.

    Sentry-Hood-Daken is now 99% in every team over 900. Fighting the exact same team composition up to 1300 or whatever is not my idea of fun.

    What's more important is HOW the nerf is done. I'm not going to ramble, but basically: 2* Wolverine and Thor nerf, CMag nerf = good nerfs. Spider-Man and Ragnarok nerf = bad nerfs! Bad!
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    JessyC01 wrote:
    Nerfing is a good thing because Patchneto comprised like 85% of the teams I saw in PVP and simulator and it was boring as hell and made me not want to play the game.

    Sentry-Hood-Daken is now 99% in every team over 900. Fighting the exact same team composition up to 1300 or whatever is not my idea of fun.

    What's more important is HOW the nerf is done. I'm not going to ramble, but basically: 2* Wolverine and Thor nerf, CMag nerf = good nerfs. Spider-Man and Ragnarok nerf = bad nerfs! Bad!
    I still think they may have actually made Thor more powerful when they nerfed him. His yellow-to-green cycle is almost incomparable among other medium-speed powerhouse moves.
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    Honestly, the OP title is a very narrow way to look at it.

    Let's all agree that BALANCING the game is a good thing. When variety, strategy, or good ol' fashioned personal preference dictates your team, you are in a good place.

    For a practical matter, imagine the power level is something like this (scale of 1 - 9): 9777666666655555555555554432221. It's way less development effort to balance to a 5 or 6 and work on the outliers than to ask the devs to buff every character in the game.
  • IlDuderino
    IlDuderino Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    I understand the need to balance but this should be done by minor tweaks to damage amounts or AP costs. What I don't think is right is when people have purposefully built a team in a certain way (potentially spending money to do so) and a nerf fundamentally alters this in a negative way (e.g. the cMags colour change, Daken no longer tanking green meaning other team members take damage)
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Junior11 wrote:
    Hey c101nguyen. I agree with you. Characters should never be changed after the fact. Not even if, as one of the posters above said "it is needed". Sorry, I don't buy that. If a character is perceived to be too powerful, then another character can be invented to off set those powers. I now have Sentry at 3-3-4. Now I have to spend energy/money to complete the character. What incentive do I have to do that, when demiurge Al or "Ice" or any of the rest of that bunch decides that Sentry is too powerful. Upgrade characters at your own risk!! Truly, "nerfing" characters has to do with forcing players to invest in new players. Also, Classic Magneto had the ability to place and overwrite two tiles. Demiurge wanted to remove that ability so that the player would take more damage. Plain and simple. Withhold all financial support. Do not buy any covers, shields or health packs!!

    It's not even just a practical matter, its stupid to buff everyone to say Sentry's level because then everyone will be so good that they can end the game in 3 turns with boosts. Have you guys who think that nerfs are always a bad thing even thought of what would happen if you buffed everyone to Sentry's level? It would be something completely stupid like Punishers judgement tiles now give +300 attack each, his molotov now deals 2.5k damage, so on and so forth. It's completely unhealthy for the game to have every single character be able to end the game in 3 turns because it completely removes any semblance of strategy from the game (which is what we're seeing with Sentry hopping), so these calls for "no nerfs to ever happen" don't make any sense.
  • Yes, nerfing/balancing can be a good thing. What seemed like a good idea to the devs when they first came up with it can occasionally become a bad idea when released into the wild. Nerfing is such a common thing in online gaming that it crosses all platforms, so anyone complaining about their money (assuming they spent some) going to waste needs to Google "caveat emptor."
  • Caveat emptor doesn't really exist in most western countries (rightly so).... just as a note.

    As far as nerfing goes I would say yes... where appropriate heroes should be nerfed HOWEVER D3 have proven to be plain bad at rebalancing heroes.

    When they nerf heroes they have in almost all cases made those heroes bad enough to no longer be of any real use... Loki, Rags, Spiderman and 1* storm are all pretty clear cut cases. Tiny Wolvie pretty much disappeared overnight and with 2* Daken being able to reach the 2* level cap now he might join Moonstone in frequency of use because he is behind other similar heroes with no unique hook to get him used. C.Mags is also, IMO, functionally useless after every single one of his powers got hit hard all at once (I don't even worry about letting the AI fire off his blue when I (rarely) face him now because the damage is inevitably pathetic from the AI having had to match away one of the powers it needs to swap to use the power in the first place). There is pretty much no reason to use him that I can think of with a lsow to get going protect generator and 2 mediocre single target nukes.

    The only nerfs I can think of off the top of my head where the hero remained useful are C.Storm, 2* Thor and 3* Daken. I guess i'll also go for BP but, IMO, it required the buff to his yellow to get him back into contention for use.

    So, IMO, they are below 50:50 when it comes to their ability to nerf a hero without making them garbage which somewhat fits with the fact they are still releasing new heroes that are utter trash (Hello Beast!!). When they take people's money to directly boost a given hero they need to do a much MUCH better job with rebalancing them IMO.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    bonfire01 wrote:
    Caveat emptor doesn't really exist in most western countries (rightly so).... just as a note.

    As far as nerfing goes I would say yes... where appropriate heroes should be nerfed HOWEVER D3 have proven to be plain bad at rebalancing heroes.

    When they nerf heroes they have in almost all cases made those heroes bad enough to no longer be of any real use... Loki, Rags, Spiderman and 1* storm are all pretty clear cut cases. Tiny Wolvie pretty much disappeared overnight and with 2* Daken being able to reach the 2* level cap now he might join Moonstone in frequency of use because he is behind other similar heroes with no unique hook to get him used. C.Mags is also, IMO, functionally useless after every single one of his powers got hit hard all at once (I don't even worry about letting the AI fire off his blue when I (rarely) face him now because the damage is inevitably pathetic from the AI having had to match away one of the powers it needs to swap to use the power in the first place). There is pretty much no reason to use him that I can think of with a lsow to get going protect generator and 2 mediocre single target nukes.

    The only nerfs I can think of off the top of my head where the hero remained useful are C.Storm, 2* Thor and 3* Daken. I guess i'll also go for BP but, IMO, it required the buff to his yellow to get him back into contention for use.

    So, IMO, they are below 50:50 when it comes to their ability to nerf a hero without making them garbage which somewhat fits with the fact they are still releasing new heroes that are utter trash (Hello Beast!!). When they take people's money to directly boost a given hero they need to do a much MUCH better job with rebalancing them IMO.

    Their previous nerfs have been absolutely horrendous for the most part, but these recent changes have proven that they are capable of giving us well thought out balance changes. I don't think new C. Mags nearly as bad as you think. Once the Sentry nerf hits (half a year, maybe?), it'll open up the metagame a bit and you might start to see new C. Mags being used: he's definitely good enough to be considered middle of the pack: probably around LazyCap's power level, which is pretty balanced if you ask me.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
    My take is this. Nerfing is necessary when the game is out of balance. Sentry will be the next nerf becuase it needs to happen. I hear people complain about CMags becuase they spent money on him over 6 months ago and have been abusing him for 6 months which in turn has let them build a great roster and earn a lot of rewards. It has been know he was going to get Nerfed beacuse his powers were abused. People who paid recieved a huge benifit from using and abusing him so to say you are upset becuase you didn't get what you paid for is silly. You paid for XX number of months of Patchneto and being able to dominate PVE and climb in PVP fairly easily. That sounds like you got a return on your investment. When power creeps happen developers have to bring down the most powerful becuase it balances out the player base. I currently have a 166 Senty and I know one day he will be Nerfed. Will I be upset about it no becuase I know it is comming. I am building my 3* team in the meantime so I can use the next best thing when it happens. If you look at the current game after Sentry you will have LThor and Colossus as the big time super tanks. They will both do huge AOE damage and paired with Hood will dominate the upper PVP players. It might also be Xforce or Fury, but my bet on the top 3* will be LThor/Colossus with Hood. Huge AOE damage, huge tank, very hard to kill. One day they will be Nerfed too. Play them while you can and build everyone else in the proccess. I just hope they also buff some of the older characters that are now not being used because of being too slow, not enough health, or don't do enough damage so when I climb to 800 points I can use more characters.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Huh, a thread about nerfing, and phantron still hasn't chimed in?

    IMO they should actually want some degree of power creep, as there's no real reason for people to actually spend money on these mehdium tier snorfests like beast and she-hulk that already come pre-nerfed.
  • I'm suspicious of nerfing, but mostly because, as many posters have said already, it was done badly plenty of times. I'm OK with the Daken nerf (and he is one of my most frequently played characters) because he really was extremely powerful. He still is strong now. Magneto still is fairly strong too, but doesn't serve the same purpose for me anymore now (namely the overwriting of attack, strike and protect tiles or Hulk's anger countdowns). Spider-Man and Black Widow were made a lot less significant by the healing change, though (Spidey is still a decent stunner, though no way as good as he was). other examples have been cited already.

    As for Sentry, that impending nerf is worrying me. I like playing him, and yes, he is very powerful, but he also has his drawbacks, and the nerf to Daken effectively nerfed his one-cast-kill with World Rupture quite a bit already.

    There will always be frequently used characters. When one gets nerfed, another turns up to take the fallen idol's place. Widow and Spidey aren't seen as often anymore, but Hood's popularity as a sidekick has risen quite a bit since then.
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    You have to admit though, it's fairly wide consensus that Sentry/Magneto weren't/aren't just strong, they were/are broken (Infinite turns and ridiculously short victory possibilities ends up trivializing defense).

    Hood's not nearly that strong. He's arguably the best support in the game, but doesn't seem capable of completely trivializing PvE or PvP.
  • Nerfing IMHO is 100% = made this gaming system broken

    I read through this forum a bit. Previously Ragnarok, & recently CMag were requested to be nerfed (sorry if I was wrong). So devs went through & done (then whining started). Spiderman, CStorm, 2* Wolverine & others I'm not sure. & now they started to talk about Sentry because well Sentry, Sentry, Sentry.

    But what if the characters were not being nerfed?

    Can Spiderman slow down Sentry = I think Yes

    Can Ragnarok counter Sentry = I think yes too

    AP boosts for me are to counter the low cost ap boosts characters when you facing them (which I think devs created these boosts originally). But the characters were already nerfed. Should AP boosts be gone? = I think not

    So what I see from the above if the gaming went back to pre-nerfed system. You will have a hell lot of rosters diversity that I couldn't imagine. & by that time I may actually searching to fight Sentry cause I got Spiderman, Ragnarok, CMag etc etc etc great characters combi.

    So what makes the game system broken? I am confused here but I don't think 100% devs fault anymore. & come to think of it, the original characters created pre-nerfed were actually great.

    I really hoped the devs will look into this & if the current trend kept on (nerfing Sentry), then it will be always be 1 sided who will be op/overused next after Sentry nerfed...

    If there was no nerfing = Balance of the force!!! icon_razz.gif
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    BozKoh wrote:
    Nerfing IMHO is 100% = made this gaming system broken

    I read through this forum a bit. Previously Ragnarok, & recently CMag were requested to be nerfed (sorry if I was wrong). So devs went through & done (then whining started). Spiderman, CStorm, 2* Wolverine & others I'm not sure. & now they started to talk about Sentry because well Sentry, Sentry, Sentry.

    But what if the characters were not being nerfed?

    Can Spiderman slow down Sentry = I think Yes

    Can Ragnarok counter Sentry = I think yes too

    AP boosts for me are to counter the low cost ap boosts characters when you facing them (which I think devs created these boosts originally). But the characters were already nerfed. Should AP boosts be gone? = I think not

    So what I see from the above if the gaming went back to pre-nerfed system. You will have a hell lot of rosters diversity that I couldn't imagine. & by that time I may actually searching to fight Sentry cause I got Spiderman, Ragnarok, CMag etc etc etc great characters combi.

    So what makes the game system broken? I am confused here but I don't think 100% devs fault anymore. & come to think of it, the original characters created pre-nerfed were actually great.

    I really hoped the devs will look into this & if the current trend kept on (nerfing Sentry), then it will be always be 1 sided who will be op/overused next after Sentry nerfed...

    If there was no nerfing = Balance of the force!!! icon_razz.gif

    If no characters were nerfed, then you would have the joy of playing against ragnarok sentry daken. Do you even know what 2AP thunderclap looks like? Fully boosted, games would go something like this: turn 1: thunderclap, thunderclap, thunderclap. Spam a bunch of daken strike tiles. Cascades into a bunch of random colors. World rupture. Literal beginning of turn 3 (if it even gets to that): entire enemy team is dead. You can't counter overpowered characters with more overpowered characters, because then the game will get so stupid that you can consistently win on turn ONE, and how is spending HP/iso to go into every battle fully boosted and winning in a single turn fun for anyone? It's already bad enough as a turn 5 win with just Sentry, I don't think how anyone could think that changing this to a turn one win is any better.