These characters need to be nerfed

@BriMan2222 said:

@MegaBee said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@ViralCore said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@ViralCore said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@ViralCore said:
It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

Right, I’m well aware that you like all of the cheesy teams. I’m not surprised that you think HE is fine

Lmao, I do? I'm running lvl 672's 99% of the time and I'm not running HE at all while he's boosted (I am crushing them repeatedly with 2a5 war machine and ghost pool). But I guess I "run cheesy teams" because I've used mm/coulson .9% of time for funnsies😆 (I honestly can't remember the last time I used them at all)

MM/Coulson is hilarious, but it is slow.

Not with the right supports and ap boosts. Stepford cuckoos on MM, avengers tower on coulson, any ap gain support on the third. Cuckoo steals ap everytime he fires a power (all their support ap gain becomes your ap) and avengers tower has a chance to generate yellow at game start and your strongest color every time an ally fires a power.

With all the ap gained you can usually win turn zero in less than a minute.

Hot dang!

@Blackstone said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@Blackstone said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Once you're there you need a way to let those noobs win at least sometimes or they'll just get frustrated. PVP is a mess with people complaining constantly about the teams they run into once they're not in like 3*land.

The game turned into the reduced turn arms race, that genie is out of the bottle, making it slower just makes more people throw in the towel which some will argue is good but that's probably not desirable to the devs.

So yeah, you need to let newer players who want to spend a bit have a way to get competitive in the 5* MMR very quickly.

By the way, the real impediment to noobs winning more is supports, which the devs pulled back access to when Heroic bosses went away. Nothing new exists there except some shards in PVP and the fave ones in bosses, but you still need to pull tokens and luck out to have it at all.

Pretending that new player who buys 1-5 hawkeye will just autowin vs any team full of high level 5s is ignoring the need to start with purple.

The main goal of roster building now is to access more stuff in PVE (you need to roster about 383 characters to have ensured access to every node you see) and allow more reward churn to open more stuff because you have lots of champs vs wasting covers. If you're newer you're never, ever catching up to the level of people who have been here for even 6 years or half the game's life in terms of pure pull churn and how many ascended you have, etc.

I concur with this.

Especially the point you made about supports.
I've been playing since year one and I have everything available in the game... Except for one support.

I have never gotten even one leapfrog. If there was ever a store that offered it I must have missed it, but I've never gotten it from a pull so it remains the one thing I just might not ever see in my roster.

Anyone just starting out and wanting to build full supports would have a much harder time than building characters. And I don't think I ever gave it much thought until I read your comment.

I thought so too...

But there was an ill-timed issue with my apple pay, which stemmed from a fraudulent charge on my linked card, which I had to replace, which meant that I wasn't able to make purchases for a short time while a new card was being issued, and that small window is precisely when the deal was offered.

I tried to get it but kept getting denied.

I don't really need it beyond completionist collecting, but it's getting hilarious that it still eludes me.

This is why I have a 2nd credit card.

What would you do if you were on vacation and this happened? You'd be screwed.

KGB

I assume this means Leapfrog and the other Supports on the chopping block are in fact not getting "rebalanced" now.

@DAZ0273 said:
I assume this means Leapfrog and the other Supports on the chopping block are in fact not getting "rebalanced" now.

Well, if I were them I’d put it on the back burner for sure.

Basically the goal would be to make them good enough to use in pve and pvp but not be ridiculously OP.

And so at best you make them somehow better on offense than others and push the envelope further. Or they don’t matter at all because they don’t do that and there’s no real incentive to use a mediocre support in your play.

And so, yeah. My guess is they initially had an idea to rebalance them, but that’ll never happen - especially now with new devs and limited time and all that. Also it sounded good at the time to temper frustration over leveling up supports you don’t want to use anymore.

Note that you can use the tile-swappy supports if you want in PvE but it’s not the optimal choice. It’s mostly for fun and they’re a not-terrible option.

@MegaBee said:

@DAZ0273 said:
I assume this means Leapfrog and the other Supports on the chopping block are in fact not getting "rebalanced" now.

I thought the rebalance was them being locked out of PvP.

That was the temporary delaying action I thought? They really shouldn't be selling things that you can't use in half the game or those things should be cheaper!

@bluewolf said:

@DAZ0273 said:
I assume this means Leapfrog and the other Supports on the chopping block are in fact not getting "rebalanced" now.

Well, if I were them I’d put it on the back burner for sure.

Basically the goal would be to make them good enough to use in pve and pvp but not be ridiculously OP.

Leapfrog seems the easier to fix to me.

Just change the R3 invisible tile to be a 2 turn invisible CD (similar to Invisible Womans invisible power) instead of lasting till the invisible tile gets destroyed/matched. I'd also make it consume 2 battery charges.

Then at R5 you'd get 2 firings of Frog since both types use 2 charges and you could still make 1 match 4 since there are 5 total charges.

Still useful to avoid turn 0 deaths but not OP.

KGB

@KGB said:

@Blackstone said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@Blackstone said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Once you're there you need a way to let those noobs win at least sometimes or they'll just get frustrated. PVP is a mess with people complaining constantly about the teams they run into once they're not in like 3*land.

The game turned into the reduced turn arms race, that genie is out of the bottle, making it slower just makes more people throw in the towel which some will argue is good but that's probably not desirable to the devs.

So yeah, you need to let newer players who want to spend a bit have a way to get competitive in the 5* MMR very quickly.

By the way, the real impediment to noobs winning more is supports, which the devs pulled back access to when Heroic bosses went away. Nothing new exists there except some shards in PVP and the fave ones in bosses, but you still need to pull tokens and luck out to have it at all.

Pretending that new player who buys 1-5 hawkeye will just autowin vs any team full of high level 5s is ignoring the need to start with purple.

The main goal of roster building now is to access more stuff in PVE (you need to roster about 383 characters to have ensured access to every node you see) and allow more reward churn to open more stuff because you have lots of champs vs wasting covers. If you're newer you're never, ever catching up to the level of people who have been here for even 6 years or half the game's life in terms of pure pull churn and how many ascended you have, etc.

I concur with this.

Especially the point you made about supports.
I've been playing since year one and I have everything available in the game... Except for one support.

I have never gotten even one leapfrog. If there was ever a store that offered it I must have missed it, but I've never gotten it from a pull so it remains the one thing I just might not ever see in my roster.

Anyone just starting out and wanting to build full supports would have a much harder time than building characters. And I don't think I ever gave it much thought until I read your comment.

I thought so too...

But there was an ill-timed issue with my apple pay, which stemmed from a fraudulent charge on my linked card, which I had to replace, which meant that I wasn't able to make purchases for a short time while a new card was being issued, and that small window is precisely when the deal was offered.

I tried to get it but kept getting denied.

I don't really need it beyond completionist collecting, but it's getting hilarious that it still eludes me.

This is why I have a 2nd credit card.

What would you do if you were on vacation and this happened? You'd be screwed.

KGB

I have multiple cards and accounts separated by what I use them for.. I'd be covered for emergencies, I just wasn't able to get another card to link with my apple account. I still haven't been able to do so. I'm assuming it has something to do with the previous unauthorized use of my information.

My initial point was that I've played regularly and have never gotten a leapfrog in any of the many support tokens I've opened as an example of how it could be difficult for new players to acquire supports needed to complete in PVP.

@MegaBee said:

@LennoxHC said:
I'm now using the Hawkeye infinite for the majority of my matches in PvP, but for me, it only goes infinite at turn 0 with supports (Refreshment Cart for the purple AP refund, Quantum Realm and Black Widow Batons to start with purple AP).

How well does he work without the supports? I've been super fortunate to get the necessary supports at the needed levels to fuel the combo, and I've had many matches where I needed the supports to keep the infinite going. Does the character still need nerfing if supports were removed from PvP?

He doesn't go reliably infinite without Refreshment Cart IME.

I must have played hundreds of battles with Hawkeye without Cart. I am pretty sure that it would be a conservative claim to say Refreshment Cart has made a difference to the outcome of the infinite in less than 5% of matches. Maybe only 1 or 2%, but I haven't kept a written record so let's stick to a safe 5% claim.

Yes, Cart helps find matches easier and you don't have to board shake with his red as often but you can generally get out of almost any tricky board as long as you started with at least 5 purple. I do generally have another character with board shake on the team though, usually Onslaught but often Mystique is the only board shake on the team. Even on the Mystique runs it's still really rare for me to miss Cart, at least in PvE and pick 3.

@LuxAurae said:

@KGB said:

@ViralCore said:

@Borstock said:
You're talking about two characters who don't hit hard on their own, have no self-protection against stun or away, and can easily die to match damage on turn 1.

I don't see either one as threatening or a problem.

Hawkeye is a winfinite by himself. They’ve nerfed cmags, 4px, dino, and others, for being able to winfinite with other characters.

3may makes the other 1a5 characters oppressive (yelena and spider-man). Unless all of your ap supports proc, one of your characters is dying to them on the first turn. That’s untrue of any 5*. 1s shouldn’t outclass 5s. It defeats the whole purpose of having tiers.

Just to be clear a 1a5 IS A 5 STAR CHARACTER. It's not a 1* character so beating other 5* is normal and intended.

Interestingly enough we had a defense against turn 1 deaths back when Frog was allowed. Of course the whining that players themselves couldn't win on turn 0 against Frog meant we lost Frog as a defense against this nonsense. Why not instead petition for Frog to be returned?

KGB

Rather petition to remove supports from PVP again as that ALSO solves the issue of first turn kills. And lets variety breathe again.

No Frogs please. Thank you.

.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times: Supports are outright ruining the game. They stifle any real strategy, and if they aren't going to be removed entirely, we desperately need a "no supports" queue. It isn't just the massive advantage they give to characters like Hawkeye, Meteorite, or Namor—it’s the blatant inconsistency.

It feels like the enemy's AP boosts proc 99% of the time while mine stay dormant. I’m exhausted by Namor’s black triggering on entry every single match, or facing a Nova team that magically has 12 green AP before the first turn and then getting greens every round through Hulk. Don't even get me started on Juggernaut paired with ThanosCopter or Shang Chi with Fantasticar wiping a whole team on turn one. Keeping these in the game is a terrible design choice. I’d gladly trade them all in for a few covers of my choice just to have a balanced game again. It would improve the experience literally overnight.

@Bustapup said:

To me just one obvious example is Chasms turn one stun and constant AP drain. Did the Devs really want players to be stuck with zero AP most of the match unable to have a chance of executing any sort of games plan? Id like to think not. Chasms constant AP drain is like MTG's mass land removal

Equip someone with cart so you don't get stunned and kill him turn 0, that's the chasm gameplan.