These characters need to be nerfed

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Blackstone I agree with some of what you said here, and I think we agree in general about turn0 wins (you didn't say it, but I don't think they should exist and I think you think that too).

The problem is that not all turn0 wins are equal. We've actually had them in PvP since 5* match damage became a thing -- seed teams! You can also climb till you only see 5-pointers, and get very low level player teams. So "punching down" turn0 wins have been a thing for a long time, and I think those are ok. When I'm punching down by hundreds of levels, those fights should be really fast and easy.

Supports (post-leapfrog) have enabled tons of teams that can reliably turn0 your peers, and I think those are more problematic, but I guess PvP has been getting faster anyway and maybe we'd have gotten there anyway. I don't like this, but I guess I can understand a case for it.

Hawkeye and May are something new though, because they enable "punching up" turn0 wins, and I just think that's something different entirely. Should a lower level player be able to beat any team of any level (except Galactus I guess!) without ever giving them a turn? I guess I don't understand the case for that one. Why is that good?

I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying it's how it is.

I don't think any match should ever end without each side being able to move.

I understand the argument for preventing lower level players from doing this to high level players who have invested more time into their roster...

I just think the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny because those high level players can retaliate quickly and earn points more quickly that anyone relying on HE can't compete with.

If turn zero wins are going to remain in the game, and the game is expected to grow with new players, there must be a turn zero option for those new players.

That option being slower and less reliable on defense meets that need while not truly competing with the rest of the zero turn meta.

I also don't understand the argument that brand new players need access to turn0 wins against any team of any level. It's a roster-building game, right? Why should you have an endgame roster that fast?

But the biggest problem here is that the Hawkeye teams aren't slow. We've always had slow infinite teams that take like an hour to win a fight. Those are fine because they're not practical. Hawkeye is WAY faster than that stuff.

Brand new players do not get access to turn 0 wins against teams of any level with Hawkeye. Without supports that grant starting AP he's not winning on turn 0 and to be more realistic you need other supports like Refreshment cart to guarantee that turn 0 win. So it's not Hawkeye on his own = turn 0 wins vs any team.

Also I can tell you he's VERY slow. Mine's a 3 star in the 330 range and without my L360 Shang with his crazy match damage boost as a team mate it would take a lifetime to beat a 672. What you are really saying is a 550 (or maybe 450?) Hawkeye can do it reasonably fast due to 5 star match damage. But a 550 Hawkeye is absolutely not an entry level character for new players (baring paying $20 for a 450 when they occasionally sell one), that's an end game roster and if an end game roster character is beating 672 that's not unreasonable.

KGB

Read_Only

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Blackstone I agree with some of what you said here, and I think we agree in general about turn0 wins (you didn't say it, but I don't think they should exist and I think you think that too).

The problem is that not all turn0 wins are equal. We've actually had them in PvP since 5* match damage became a thing -- seed teams! You can also climb till you only see 5-pointers, and get very low level player teams. So "punching down" turn0 wins have been a thing for a long time, and I think those are ok. When I'm punching down by hundreds of levels, those fights should be really fast and easy.

Supports (post-leapfrog) have enabled tons of teams that can reliably turn0 your peers, and I think those are more problematic, but I guess PvP has been getting faster anyway and maybe we'd have gotten there anyway. I don't like this, but I guess I can understand a case for it.

Hawkeye and May are something new though, because they enable "punching up" turn0 wins, and I just think that's something different entirely. Should a lower level player be able to beat any team of any level (except Galactus I guess!) without ever giving them a turn? I guess I don't understand the case for that one. Why is that good?

I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying it's how it is.

I don't think any match should ever end without each side being able to move.

I understand the argument for preventing lower level players from doing this to high level players who have invested more time into their roster...

I just think the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny because those high level players can retaliate quickly and earn points more quickly that anyone relying on HE can't compete with.

If turn zero wins are going to remain in the game, and the game is expected to grow with new players, there must be a turn zero option for those new players.

That option being slower and less reliable on defense meets that need while not truly competing with the rest of the zero turn meta.

I also don't understand the argument that brand new players need access to turn0 wins against any team of any level. It's a roster-building game, right? Why should you have an endgame roster that fast?

But the biggest problem here is that the Hawkeye teams aren't slow. We've always had slow infinite teams that take like an hour to win a fight. Those are fine because they're not practical. Hawkeye is WAY faster than that stuff.

Brand new players do not get access to turn 0 wins against teams of any level with Hawkeye. Without supports that grant starting AP he's not winning on turn 0 and to be more realistic you need other supports like Refreshment cart to guarantee that turn 0 win. So it's not Hawkeye on his own = turn 0 wins vs any team.

Also I can tell you he's VERY slow. Mine's a 3 star in the 330 range and without my L360 Shang with his crazy match damage boost as a team mate it would take a lifetime to beat a 672. What you are really saying is a 550 (or maybe 450?) Hawkeye can do it reasonably fast due to 5 star match damage. But a 550 Hawkeye is absolutely not an entry level character for new players (baring paying $20 for a 450 when they occasionally sell one), that's an end game roster and if an end game roster character is beating 672 that's not unreasonable.

KGB

Ok, this is a thing that happens all the time here and it drives me insane.

The person I was responding to said that Hawkeye was important because he gave brand new players a way to punch up against anybody.

I replied, asking why that would be a good thing.

You replied to me, telling me that in fact, Hawkeye does not give new players a way to punch up against anybody.

See the problem here? Your issue is with that other guy!

entrailbucket

@Read_Only said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

This is a fantastic reason to not be in an "alliance family"