These characters need to be nerfed

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Comments

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 4,072 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, right, so going to wins was a lazy cop-out because they didn't feel like doing the work to explain their game or fix it. Why was it a mistake?

    Because it doesn't actually fix anything. Imagine a role playing game where one of the bosses is super complicated and can just kill you out of nowhere randomly no matter what you do. Instead of explaining the mechanics or fixing them, the devs make it optional -- you don't have to beat this guy to get the rewards, just fight him 10 times and we'll give you all the stuff!

    That seems reasonable, if maybe a little weird. But what if half the game was super complicated and difficult, and so the devs made half the game completely skippable in that way?

    In a game with a well-crafted, interesting plot, that might make sense! You might want to play some super difficult RPG to experience the story, and just skip all the fights.

    But in a game where the entire game is just a pile of mechanics, if you start letting players opt out of mechanics that suck, what do you have left? Suddenly nothing matters at all, and there's no reason to fix anything.

    Except its not quite like you describe. The actual game mechanics of PvP (now that supports are available) are exactly the same as PvE or other battles.

    When players initially join PvP they see all these rewards at various point levels and nothing indicates they can't achieve them. So they just start fighting battles against similar roster strength and gradually climbing. But at some point they cross an invisible MMR line that's not the same every time (or slice) and once they do they get clubbed like seals by rosters that VASTLY outclass them. No matter what they do they can't progress on their own.

    Coming back to your RPG game, imagine buying a solo RPG and getting to one of the later Bosses in the game to discover it's impossible to beat that Boss. Except your told (or can read online in Forums) that if you go online and join with other RPG players then in concert they can help you over come this Boss. Many players who play solo RPGs don't want to go online which is why they play solo RPG in the first place. You can imagine they'd be very unhappy with that RPG and ask for the Boss to be beatable in solo mode (wins based).

    PvP allowing your roster and mine to compete for the same rewards in the same bracket is the problem because it forced MMR into the game so that at some point you'd club me so that stronger rosters like yours could finish on top over mine. That's why a month or so ago I suggested PvP needs to change so you enter brackets based on level so that there would be no need for MMR.

    KGB

    Are you disagreeing with me or expanding on what I said? I read this twice now and I can't tell.

    I'm saying they should have either explained to players exactly how to play PvP, in the same way the community has for a decade, or overhauled it in some way to make it not require said explanation. Instead the solution they picked was "we'll just let you opt out of all this stupidity if you don't like it" which is the worst possible fix.

    I'm saying MMR in PvP is worst mistake they ever made.

    Wins based PvP was the fix for that. It wasn't a mistake, it was a god-send for anyone who wasn't at the bleeding edge roster wise.

    KGB

    It didn't fix anything. All of the problems are still there, and many of them are worse now.

    You don't care, though, because they gave you a way to just ignore all the problems and get your stuff anyway.

    Of course it fixed things. Just not for you at the bleeding edge but for everyone else it did.

    We love our analogies here as you well know so here goes ;)

    At my local club I play in Tennis and Golf leagues. You challenge players in the league to games and if you win you get ranking points and move up in league rankings and if you lose you lose points and move down. This is essentially how MPQ PvP works too. But no way would I ever imagine that the ranking points at my club and the ones Roger Federer/Tiger Woods use are one and the same. But in MPQ world when I get to the near top/top of my club ladder suddenly Roger Federer / Tiger Woods is challenging me to games and taking points from me that THEY can use in their own pro rankings while simultaneously lowering my rankings vs my club peers. Its absolutely insane when you think about it.

    There are really only two ways forward now
    1) Leave things as they are
    2) Re-do PvP entirely and group players in brackets with their peers and re-do awards accordingly (550 PvP awards more than 450 PvP which rewards more than 370 PvP which rewards more than 266 PvP and so on) and let players pick a bracket based on their roster and block out ineligible characters (ie can't use a 550 character in 450 PvP).

    KGB

    I just cannot understand how you don't get this.

    You say PvP isn't fun or isn't fair or doesn't make sense, or whatever, and list the changes they should make.

    My point is that they will never make those changes, because wins-based progression means nobody cares anymore. You can ignore all the stuff you don't like and get your rewards anyway. If they'd never done it, players would still be asking for that overhaul you're describing, and there's a good chance that we'd actually get it.

    I actually do get it. I'm absolutely one of those wins-based-progression-players-who-doesn't-care-anymore. So yeah, I'm perfectly happy if they never make any changes.

    But I don't think wins based progression decides whether or not there are PvP changes in the future. I'd imagine it would come down to player participation levels in conjunction with other work the game needs done. In essence low participation rates and running out of other more important things to work on.

    KGB

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,297 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, right, so going to wins was a lazy cop-out because they didn't feel like doing the work to explain their game or fix it. Why was it a mistake?

    Because it doesn't actually fix anything. Imagine a role playing game where one of the bosses is super complicated and can just kill you out of nowhere randomly no matter what you do. Instead of explaining the mechanics or fixing them, the devs make it optional -- you don't have to beat this guy to get the rewards, just fight him 10 times and we'll give you all the stuff!

    That seems reasonable, if maybe a little weird. But what if half the game was super complicated and difficult, and so the devs made half the game completely skippable in that way?

    In a game with a well-crafted, interesting plot, that might make sense! You might want to play some super difficult RPG to experience the story, and just skip all the fights.

    But in a game where the entire game is just a pile of mechanics, if you start letting players opt out of mechanics that suck, what do you have left? Suddenly nothing matters at all, and there's no reason to fix anything.

    Except its not quite like you describe. The actual game mechanics of PvP (now that supports are available) are exactly the same as PvE or other battles.

    When players initially join PvP they see all these rewards at various point levels and nothing indicates they can't achieve them. So they just start fighting battles against similar roster strength and gradually climbing. But at some point they cross an invisible MMR line that's not the same every time (or slice) and once they do they get clubbed like seals by rosters that VASTLY outclass them. No matter what they do they can't progress on their own.

    Coming back to your RPG game, imagine buying a solo RPG and getting to one of the later Bosses in the game to discover it's impossible to beat that Boss. Except your told (or can read online in Forums) that if you go online and join with other RPG players then in concert they can help you over come this Boss. Many players who play solo RPGs don't want to go online which is why they play solo RPG in the first place. You can imagine they'd be very unhappy with that RPG and ask for the Boss to be beatable in solo mode (wins based).

    PvP allowing your roster and mine to compete for the same rewards in the same bracket is the problem because it forced MMR into the game so that at some point you'd club me so that stronger rosters like yours could finish on top over mine. That's why a month or so ago I suggested PvP needs to change so you enter brackets based on level so that there would be no need for MMR.

    KGB

    Are you disagreeing with me or expanding on what I said? I read this twice now and I can't tell.

    I'm saying they should have either explained to players exactly how to play PvP, in the same way the community has for a decade, or overhauled it in some way to make it not require said explanation. Instead the solution they picked was "we'll just let you opt out of all this stupidity if you don't like it" which is the worst possible fix.

    I'm saying MMR in PvP is worst mistake they ever made.

    Wins based PvP was the fix for that. It wasn't a mistake, it was a god-send for anyone who wasn't at the bleeding edge roster wise.

    KGB

    It didn't fix anything. All of the problems are still there, and many of them are worse now.

    You don't care, though, because they gave you a way to just ignore all the problems and get your stuff anyway.

    Of course it fixed things. Just not for you at the bleeding edge but for everyone else it did.

    We love our analogies here as you well know so here goes ;)

    At my local club I play in Tennis and Golf leagues. You challenge players in the league to games and if you win you get ranking points and move up in league rankings and if you lose you lose points and move down. This is essentially how MPQ PvP works too. But no way would I ever imagine that the ranking points at my club and the ones Roger Federer/Tiger Woods use are one and the same. But in MPQ world when I get to the near top/top of my club ladder suddenly Roger Federer / Tiger Woods is challenging me to games and taking points from me that THEY can use in their own pro rankings while simultaneously lowering my rankings vs my club peers. Its absolutely insane when you think about it.

    There are really only two ways forward now
    1) Leave things as they are
    2) Re-do PvP entirely and group players in brackets with their peers and re-do awards accordingly (550 PvP awards more than 450 PvP which rewards more than 370 PvP which rewards more than 266 PvP and so on) and let players pick a bracket based on their roster and block out ineligible characters (ie can't use a 550 character in 450 PvP).

    KGB

    I just cannot understand how you don't get this.

    You say PvP isn't fun or isn't fair or doesn't make sense, or whatever, and list the changes they should make.

    My point is that they will never make those changes, because wins-based progression means nobody cares anymore. You can ignore all the stuff you don't like and get your rewards anyway. If they'd never done it, players would still be asking for that overhaul you're describing, and there's a good chance that we'd actually get it.

    I actually do get it. I'm absolutely one of those wins-based-progression-players-who-doesn't-care-anymore. So yeah, I'm perfectly happy if they never make any changes.

    But I don't think wins based progression decides whether or not there are PvP changes in the future. I'd imagine it would come down to player participation levels in conjunction with other work the game needs done. In essence low participation rates and running out of other more important things to work on.

    KGB

    You have been gaming the system though through soft capping, a practice the Devs never intended as player behaviour but along with co-operation in PvP is just simply another thing we are stuck with forever.

    The final Wins based system we ended up with was a compromise and I don't see it changing very soon. If they really want to drive engagement in PvP they would fill in the massive gap between 25 wins and 50 wins, this would also help out bigger rosters playing for placement by extending the amount of targets staying out later worth points. The Wins based players don't care if they can grind away and the slice gets more points as players are playing for longer if they want more goodies.

  • Read_Only
    Read_Only Posts: 80 Match Maker

    Wins based progression is there because of the amount of people that bother with it now and generate points low down for everyone else. Go back to points only and watch how quickly people disappear. Especially these days when the experience is the least fun it's ever been.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,316 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Read_Only said:
    Wins based progression is there because of the amount of people that bother with it now and generate points low down for everyone else. Go back to points only and watch how quickly people disappear. Especially these days when the experience is the least fun it's ever been.

    This would be great, fewer PvP players means less points for everyone, and makes it more difficult to hit progression overall.

    Same thing happened when they killed cupcakes, anybody remember when 3* rosters could score 5000 points? That was awful.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 201 Tile Toppler

    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 2,022 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 February 2026, 01:23

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

  • WampaX
    WampaX Posts: 80 Match Maker

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    What MMR are you in that you are seeing a 166 vs a 550 ?

  • Grantosium
    Grantosium Posts: 176 Tile Toppler

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Or Ghost Rider 2099

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 7,094 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 February 2026, 14:21

    I am not reversing my stance on nerf timing, and maybe?defininitely? it's academic to argue about when they should do something since it's their decision. (They should wait a while, at least 6 months.)

    HOWEVER: the fact that 1 Hawkeye can winfinite on his own, pretty much, is canonically ridiculous. The guy who's just a super-good human archer.....runs out of arrows! Then he's just a normal strong guy hitting you, a god or a mutant or Iron Man or Hulk or a friggin herald of Galactus.

    So if they let him be the same but set a limit to how many times his AP gain works in a turn, that could be a compromise to not ruin his value for fighting opponents on the weaker side of things while making you either need to find a way to enhance his value/strength when he himself is weaker etc. And be canonically more accurate.

    The 5* reflects the limit of arrows, but ironically it's kind of better (or faster) when he's just hitting people as long as you can amplify the hits, etc vs waiting for the arrow CDs to resolve.

    I don't know if the code/devs have a way to make "his ability returns AP 5 x per turn and stops" a thing. Or whatever the limit is. But that seems like a good approach to me.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 201 Tile Toppler

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 201 Tile Toppler

    @WampaX said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    What MMR are you in that you are seeing a 166 vs a 550 ?

    What does my mmr have to do with anything? I play in s2, you get past 1k and everyone can see you.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 201 Tile Toppler

    @bluewolf said:
    I am not reversing my stance on nerf timing, and maybe?defininitely? it's academic to argue about when they should do something since it's their decision. (They should wait a while, at least 6 months.)

    HOWEVER: the fact that 1 Hawkeye can winfinite on his own, pretty much, is canonically ridiculous. The guy who's just a super-good human archer.....runs out of arrows! Then he's just a normal strong guy hitting you, a god or a mutant or Iron Man or Hulk or a friggin herald of Galactus.

    So if they let him be the same but set a limit to how many times his AP gain works in a turn, that could be a compromise to not ruin his value for fighting opponents on the weaker side of things while making you either need to find a way to enhance his value/strength when he himself is weaker etc. And be canonically more accurate.

    The 5* reflects the limit of arrows, but ironically it's kind of better (or faster) when he's just hitting people as long as you can amplify the hits, etc vs waiting for the arrow CDs to resolve.

    I don't know if the code/devs have a way to make "his ability returns AP 5 x per turn and stops" a thing. Or whatever the limit is. But that seems like a good approach to me.

    There’s also the fact that he can single handedly take out all current and previous meta teams by himself. Juggernaut/sam, brb/kitty, brb/polaris, thor/polaris, Thor/okoye, hulk/okoye, thor/riri, hulk/nova, colossus/sw, and even chasm/hulk (albeit turn 1 instead of 0)

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 2,022 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

    Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 201 Tile Toppler

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

    Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

    Right, I’m well aware that you like all of the cheesy teams. I’m not surprised that you think HE is fine

  • WampaX
    WampaX Posts: 80 Match Maker

    @ViralCore said:
    There’s also the fact that he can single handedly take out all current and previous meta teams by himself. Juggernaut/sam, brb/kitty, brb/polaris, thor/polaris, Thor/okoye, hulk/okoye, thor/riri, hulk/nova, colossus/sw, and even chasm/hulk (albeit turn 1 instead of 0)

    On offense, given some intelligent crit placement and a supportive board, sure.
    On defense, he's a paper tiger because the AI can't place intelligently and he will only fire his power once a turn.

    The reason most previous characters were clipped is because they did impossible/frustrating things despite the AI running them. 1aXHE teams are juicy point targets on defense because they are easy. They have those points because they had an intelligence win them. Why they are hanging out in the breeze to lose those points is not because the team is a defensive nightmare but because it takes a modicum of effort to win with them (or they don't care about placement).

    If you are arguing about 1*HE only because he is allowing players to climb higher than they normally would, I don't see how that is a bad thing. Its encouraging players to play PVP, both from offense, as he is a simple tool for players to climb with, and providing candy-filled defensive targets for everyone else.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,316 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WampaX said:

    @ViralCore said:
    There’s also the fact that he can single handedly take out all current and previous meta teams by himself. Juggernaut/sam, brb/kitty, brb/polaris, thor/polaris, Thor/okoye, hulk/okoye, thor/riri, hulk/nova, colossus/sw, and even chasm/hulk (albeit turn 1 instead of 0)

    On offense, given some intelligent crit placement and a supportive board, sure.
    On defense, he's a paper tiger because the AI can't place intelligently and he will only fire his power once a turn.

    The reason most previous characters were clipped is because they did impossible/frustrating things despite the AI running them. 1aXHE teams are juicy point targets on defense because they are easy. They have those points because they had an intelligence win them. Why they are hanging out in the breeze to lose those points is not because the team is a defensive nightmare but because it takes a modicum of effort to win with them (or they don't care about placement).

    If you are arguing about 1*HE only because he is allowing players to climb higher than they normally would, I don't see how that is a bad thing. Its encouraging players to play PVP, both from offense, as he is a simple tool for players to climb with, and providing candy-filled defensive targets for everyone else.

    They just nerfed Polaris and m'Thor (and were about to do Shang-Chi too), so "characters only get changed when they're too good on defense" is no longer true, if it ever was (it wasn't).

    Honestly the fact that they were about to nerf Shang-Chi -- it was already announced and everything -- makes Hawkeye even more mystifying, but whatever. Hawkeye is a mistake. He's not in the game for some important philosophical reason, they didn't design him to let 3* players beat 672s. They just don't know what they're doing.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 2,022 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 February 2026, 20:43

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

    Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

    Right, I’m well aware that you like all of the cheesy teams. I’m not surprised that you think HE is fine

    Lmao, I do? I'm running lvl 672's 99% of the time and I'm not running HE at all while he's boosted (I am crushing them repeatedly with 2a5 war machine and ghost pool). But I guess I "run cheesy teams" because I've used mm/coulson .9% of time for funnsies😆 (I honestly can't remember the last time I used them at all)

  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,379 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

    Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

    Right, I’m well aware that you like all of the cheesy teams. I’m not surprised that you think HE is fine

    Lmao, I do? I'm running lvl 672's 99% of the time and I'm not running HE at all while he's boosted (I am crushing them repeatedly with 2a5 war machine and ghost pool). But I guess I "run cheesy teams" because I've used mm/coulson .9% of time for funnsies😆 (I honestly can't remember the last time I used them at all)

    MM/Coulson is hilarious, but it is slow.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 2,022 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 February 2026, 21:06

    @MegaBee said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @ViralCore said:
    It's wild that so many people are ignoring that a level 166 1* can turn 0 a 672 5*. That's the same as a 8yo beating a professional athlete at the top of their game. wild

    He can't though, if it was just that level 166 on his own it would probably take 2 hours to take down a level 672. He needs a 5 star to take advantage of the match damage.

    Shang can already do what Hawkeye does, and he can truly do it alone much faster than Hawkeye can. HE teams area easy wins in pvp and rarely retaliate in my experience.

    He literally can - no matter how long it takes. In fact, he single handedly can take out three level 672s by himself, at level 166.

    Sure, if you want to spend 5 hours on 1 fight i guess you can. Or you can just kang/veil them or multiple man/coulson them or shang cheese them much faster. Personally, I'd rather have the lvl 166 Hawkeye team trying to attack me during a shield hop than just about anything else.

    Right, I’m well aware that you like all of the cheesy teams. I’m not surprised that you think HE is fine

    Lmao, I do? I'm running lvl 672's 99% of the time and I'm not running HE at all while he's boosted (I am crushing them repeatedly with 2a5 war machine and ghost pool). But I guess I "run cheesy teams" because I've used mm/coulson .9% of time for funnsies😆 (I honestly can't remember the last time I used them at all)

    MM/Coulson is hilarious, but it is slow.

    Not with the right supports and ap boosts. Stepford cuckoos on MM, avengers tower on coulson, any ap gain support on the third. Cuckoo steals ap everytime he fires a power (all their support ap gain becomes your ap) and avengers tower has a chance to generate yellow at game start and your strongest color every time an ally fires a power.

    With all the ap gained you can usually win turn zero in less than a minute.

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