These characters need to be nerfed

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

@Read_Only said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

This is a fantastic reason to not be in an "alliance family"

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Once you're there you need a way to let those noobs win at least sometimes or they'll just get frustrated. PVP is a mess with people complaining constantly about the teams they run into once they're not in like 3*land.

The game turned into the reduced turn arms race, that genie is out of the bottle, making it slower just makes more people throw in the towel which some will argue is good but that's probably not desirable to the devs.

So yeah, you need to let newer players who want to spend a bit have a way to get competitive in the 5* MMR very quickly.

By the way, the real impediment to noobs winning more is supports, which the devs pulled back access to when Heroic bosses went away. Nothing new exists there except some shards in PVP and the fave ones in bosses, but you still need to pull tokens and luck out to have it at all.

Pretending that new player who buys 1-5 hawkeye will just autowin vs any team full of high level 5s is ignoring the need to start with purple.

The main goal of roster building now is to access more stuff in PVE (you need to roster about 383 characters to have ensured access to every node you see) and allow more reward churn to open more stuff because you have lots of champs vs wasting covers. If you're newer you're never, ever catching up to the level of people who have been here for even 6 years or half the game's life in terms of pure pull churn and how many ascended you have, etc.

I concur with this.

Especially the point you made about supports.
I've been playing since year one and I have everything available in the game... Except for one support.

I have never gotten even one leapfrog. If there was ever a store that offered it I must have missed it, but I've never gotten it from a pull so it remains the one thing I just might not ever see in my roster.

Anyone just starting out and wanting to build full supports would have a much harder time than building characters. And I don't think I ever gave it much thought until I read your comment.

The issue with HE is that he makes roster building irrelevant for both the user as the the target.

Once you have gotten a HE and can turn 1 win against every team, why would you continue chasing anything else? You already win everything. And especially why would you spend?

It takes many more years to grow out of wins only playstyle and those players may just stay wins farmers anyway. It’s the same as Shang or Mthor or Polaris. Many of those players also just stayed with those characters long after relevance, because they were a good win guarantee.

As for the targets of a HE team. You built this huge roster over many years, wide and tall, and regardless of the boost list, there’s some sub year roster whipping you because they spent 20 bucks. And the only real solution offered (Galactus) is kept well out of reach by the devs. Makes people question why they spent all these resources and worse makes them question if they should continue spending money as there’s no way to keep a gap in PVP.

PVE is a different beast, of course, but there only a few hundred rosters in the game at most really trying to play for placement. Most are progression and HE guarantees progression as well.

In summary, HE -as a one person winfinite- is roster death. Reverting him to his original form more so you need to pair him with a cost reducer like 4BW like his original never-used-winfinite was, would be a step in the right direction.

Nothing wrong with winfinites. But they should be two or three person teams. Synergy. Not a man and his support.

@KGB said:

@LuxAurae said:
The issue with HE is that he makes roster building irrelevant for both the user as the the target.

Once you have gotten a HE and can turn 1 win against every team, why would you continue chasing anything else? You already win everything. And especially why would you spend?

Does he really? Do you have an HE that can win on turn 1 and if so do you still spend? I have one and I still buy VIP every month.

I suspect there are plenty here on this Forum who have an HE who can win on turn 1 and still spend. I also suspect that if HE was in fact reducing spending that he'd have already been nerfed.

As for the targets of a HE team. You built this huge roster over many years, wide and tall, and regardless of the boost list, there’s some sub year roster whipping you because they spent 20 bucks. And the only real solution offered (Galactus) is kept well out of reach by the devs. Makes people question why they spent all these resources and worse makes them question if they should continue spending money as there’s no way to keep a gap in PVP.

No offense meant here but this just comes across as sour grapes. As in I'm a long time player with an amazing roster and there is no way I should ever lose to some less roster.

The only people who really care about the gap in PvP are those playing for placement. Most of the rest of us playing for wins don't care in the least that we lose to HE or any other team.

Its also interesting that the people who seem to really want HE nerfed are just high end PvP placement players. I don't see anyone saying he's ruining PvE nor do I see wins based PvP players complaining about losing to HE.

Nothing wrong with winfinites. But they should be two or three person teams. Synergy. Not a man and his support.

This made me laugh out loud. It's the equivalent of saying "Nothing wrong with prostitutes but they should cost at least 1000. No one should ever get their services for 20 bucks".

Either winfintes are OK or they aren't. Arguing about how long they should take makes no sense because everyone is going to have an entirely different opinion based on their own perspective.

KGB

You could have been more polite in your response (sour grapes and all), but I take note of your opinion.

I don’t agree with it however, for the reasons stated above.

Yes, HE is championed by wins only players. That is clear. But you missed the point of my discourse. That he eliminates the need to build wide for those players, just like Shang did before him. Just like Mthor did, Polaris, .. but all in a less risky, cheaper, stronger and self contained packet.

The first of these older examples being 5s you would need to target with many pulls (or buy, spend on vaults, etc..) meaning a significant investment in roster building. This investment doesn’t exist in the same fashion and can be skipped for less than the cost of 2-3 covers of said 5s.

Its strength versus investment and elimination of future investment and eventually maybe even retention.

Anyway. Back to lurking.

@LuxAurae said:

@KGB said:

@LuxAurae said:
The issue with HE is that he makes roster building irrelevant for both the user as the the target.

Once you have gotten a HE and can turn 1 win against every team, why would you continue chasing anything else? You already win everything. And especially why would you spend?

Does he really? Do you have an HE that can win on turn 1 and if so do you still spend? I have one and I still buy VIP every month.

I suspect there are plenty here on this Forum who have an HE who can win on turn 1 and still spend. I also suspect that if HE was in fact reducing spending that he'd have already been nerfed.

As for the targets of a HE team. You built this huge roster over many years, wide and tall, and regardless of the boost list, there’s some sub year roster whipping you because they spent 20 bucks. And the only real solution offered (Galactus) is kept well out of reach by the devs. Makes people question why they spent all these resources and worse makes them question if they should continue spending money as there’s no way to keep a gap in PVP.

No offense meant here but this just comes across as sour grapes. As in I'm a long time player with an amazing roster and there is no way I should ever lose to some less roster.

The only people who really care about the gap in PvP are those playing for placement. Most of the rest of us playing for wins don't care in the least that we lose to HE or any other team.

Its also interesting that the people who seem to really want HE nerfed are just high end PvP placement players. I don't see anyone saying he's ruining PvE nor do I see wins based PvP players complaining about losing to HE.

Nothing wrong with winfinites. But they should be two or three person teams. Synergy. Not a man and his support.

This made me laugh out loud. It's the equivalent of saying "Nothing wrong with prostitutes but they should cost at least 1000. No one should ever get their services for 20 bucks".

Either winfintes are OK or they aren't. Arguing about how long they should take makes no sense because everyone is going to have an entirely different opinion based on their own perspective.

KGB

You could have been more polite in your response (sour grapes and all), but I take note of your opinion.

I don’t agree with it however, for the reasons stated above.

Yes, HE is championed by wins only players. That is clear. But you missed the point of my discourse. That he eliminates the need to build wide for those players, just like Shang did before him. Just like Mthor did, Polaris, .. but all in a less risky, cheaper, stronger and self contained packet.

The first of these older examples being 5s you would need to target with many pulls (or buy, spend on vaults, etc..) meaning a significant investment in roster building. This investment doesn’t exist in the same fashion and can be skipped for less than the cost of 2-3 covers of said 5s.

Its strength versus investment and elimination of future investment and eventually maybe even retention.

Anyway. Back to lurking.

Everyone you mentioned as an example of characters that prevent people from growing their rosters are easily beaten and outshined by other characters once you have them, which means there's a reason to fill out your roster even if you have them.

By all means your opinion is valid based on your experience, I just don't think it matches reality.

For example: my wife hasn't opened a cover pack in about three years.

She's got thousands just sitting there.

Why? Because she's happy with her daily play with the characters she has... None of which are meta. (That she uses)

She's getting what she wants from the game and doesn't see the need for more.

Anyone who truly wants to "beat anyone" doesn't have that option.

HE, Shang, Polaris, MThor... Everyone you're mentioning as over powered and punching up pale in comparison to the actual top tier meta. At some point the people relying on those characters will see that when they face stronger characters and see the need to upgrade if truly being competitive is their goal.

If they nerf HE it'll because he sees a lot play from the average players who never graduate to higher tiers of play... And they likely wouldn't ever do so even without those characters because the average player simply doesn't put as much thought into min/maxing their roster.

There will always be characters that get more play and it doesn't mean they are the best... It means they are the best the masses have access to. And those are the characters that will get nerfed. Not because they're stronger than everyone but simply because they get more play and the nerf is intended to boost play time of other characters.

My point is to offer a counter point to your claim that HE eliminates the need to build. I disagree with statement for reasons I think are objective but I recognize others may disagree.

HE will likely get nerfed at some point...I just don't think it's needed. But that's just my opinion.

My intent on joining this discussion hasn't been to tell anyone that I'm right and they're wrong, just offering my perspective.

Anyone with HE in their roster (mine is 550 and I may do this at some point to test it) is welcomed to play only HE in PVP to test if he truly can beat everyone... And report back who they beat and who they don't.

He can't beat everyone no matter how many times people claim he can. And that destroys any argument claiming he ends the need to build or invest in the game.

@LuxAurae said:

@Blackstone said:

@LuxAurae said:

@KGB said:

@LuxAurae said:
The issue with HE is that he makes roster building irrelevant for both the user as the the target.

Once you have gotten a HE and can turn 1 win against every team, why would you continue chasing anything else? You already win everything. And especially why would you spend?

Does he really? Do you have an HE that can win on turn 1 and if so do you still spend? I have one and I still buy VIP every month.

I suspect there are plenty here on this Forum who have an HE who can win on turn 1 and still spend. I also suspect that if HE was in fact reducing spending that he'd have already been nerfed.

As for the targets of a HE team. You built this huge roster over many years, wide and tall, and regardless of the boost list, there’s some sub year roster whipping you because they spent 20 bucks. And the only real solution offered (Galactus) is kept well out of reach by the devs. Makes people question why they spent all these resources and worse makes them question if they should continue spending money as there’s no way to keep a gap in PVP.

No offense meant here but this just comes across as sour grapes. As in I'm a long time player with an amazing roster and there is no way I should ever lose to some less roster.

The only people who really care about the gap in PvP are those playing for placement. Most of the rest of us playing for wins don't care in the least that we lose to HE or any other team.

Its also interesting that the people who seem to really want HE nerfed are just high end PvP placement players. I don't see anyone saying he's ruining PvE nor do I see wins based PvP players complaining about losing to HE.

Nothing wrong with winfinites. But they should be two or three person teams. Synergy. Not a man and his support.

This made me laugh out loud. It's the equivalent of saying "Nothing wrong with prostitutes but they should cost at least 1000. No one should ever get their services for 20 bucks".

Either winfintes are OK or they aren't. Arguing about how long they should take makes no sense because everyone is going to have an entirely different opinion based on their own perspective.

KGB

You could have been more polite in your response (sour grapes and all), but I take note of your opinion.

I don’t agree with it however, for the reasons stated above.

Yes, HE is championed by wins only players. That is clear. But you missed the point of my discourse. That he eliminates the need to build wide for those players, just like Shang did before him. Just like Mthor did, Polaris, .. but all in a less risky, cheaper, stronger and self contained packet.

The first of these older examples being 5s you would need to target with many pulls (or buy, spend on vaults, etc..) meaning a significant investment in roster building. This investment doesn’t exist in the same fashion and can be skipped for less than the cost of 2-3 covers of said 5s.

Its strength versus investment and elimination of future investment and eventually maybe even retention.

Anyway. Back to lurking.

Everyone you mentioned as an example of characters that prevent people from growing their rosters are easily beaten and outshined by other characters once you have them, which means there's a reason to fill out your roster even if you have them.

By all means your opinion is valid based on your experience, I just don't think it matches reality.

For example: my wife hasn't opened a cover pack in about three years.

She's got thousands just sitting there.

Why? Because she's happy with her daily play with the characters she has... None of which are meta. (That she uses)

She's getting what she wants from the game and doesn't see the need for more.

Anyone who truly wants to "beat anyone" doesn't have that option.

HE, Shang, Polaris, MThor... Everyone you're mentioning as over powered and punching up pale in comparison to the actual top tier meta. At some point the people relying on those characters will see that when they face stronger characters and see the need to upgrade if truly being competitive is their goal.

If they nerf HE it'll because he sees a lot play from the average players who never graduate to higher tiers of play... And they likely wouldn't ever do so even without those characters because the average player simply doesn't put as much thought into min/maxing their roster.

There will always be characters that get more play and it doesn't mean they are the best... It means they are the best the masses have access to. And those are the characters that will get nerfed. Not because they're stronger than everyone but simply because they get more play and the nerf is intended to boost play time of other characters.

My point is to offer a counter point to your claim that HE eliminates the need to build. I disagree with statement for reasons I think are objective but I recognize others may disagree.

HE will likely get nerfed at some point...I just don't think it's needed. But that's just my opinion.

My intent on joining this discussion hasn't been to tell anyone that I'm right and they're wrong, just offering my perspective.

Anyone with HE in their roster (mine is 550 and I may do this at some point to test it) is welcomed to play only HE in PVP to test if he truly can beat everyone... And report back who they beat and who they don't.

He can't beat everyone no matter how many times people claim he can. And that destroys any argument claiming he ends the need to build or invest in the game.

Again skirting the point. Yes, those characters pale in comparison to top tier meta.

But people don’t move OFF them because there is no need for the vast majority of the player base to do so. As it can already comfortable beat those meta teams. They do it slower, but they don’t care about speed. They care about consistency. See also JuggsSam in even a great boost week.

My point is that these characters eliminate the drive to chase (and in such to spend which is the important part for the devs).

You raised valid points, but the core of the message keeps getting skipped over for tangents on other things.

I’m solely trying to add that unrestricted power and consistency at a very low cost of ingame resources or money is not optimal for balance of the game.

(Oh and he beats everyone with the exception of Galactus. Yes, even purple man)

I understand what you're saying, I just believe your claim to be false. Evidence is needed to support the claim because it doesn't match what is observed. (Perhaps there is someone out there in very low MMR that is beating everyone they face, but it's not what I see. So I'm not talking about individual perspective. I'm talking about convincing data to back a claim)

Does HE beat everyone except Galactus? Or is that a hypertonic claim to exaggerate his power? I believe it's the latter. HE cannot beat everyone except Galactus.

To prove that claim you must actually show HE beating everyone except Galactus.

When I have time I can test HE against any PvP team that comes up in my events and he only needs to fail once to disprove the claim. Every team I see are 550 teams, but my HE is also at 550. I'll let you know the results.

If you don't want to wait for me to get around to it you can try it yourself and let me know how it goes.

I'm not even trying to be argumentative. I just think you're repeating things there's no real evidence for.

HE isn't just stomping every team at every level in the game. So, no, I'm not skirting around the issue. I stating that I don't believe the claim being made. He's strong but people are exaggerating that strength to support their view that he needs to be nerfed.

FYI: there's no anger in my rebuttal here and I hope nothing I'm saying is upsetting you or anyone else. I find it fascinating that people think he's that strong and I'm curious to see any real data that proves things one way or another.

@Blackstone said:
@LuxAurae

Update: I went into PVP battle against Chasm, M'Baku, and 3a5 Namor... All 550. My own 550 HE was leading the charge with plenty of purple from supports...

My turn was skipped due to stun.
AI then made a match and my entire team went down like bowling balls in a mine field.

HE did not win.

Feel free to inform me what I need to make HE into the unstoppable force being claimed here.

If you’re facing Chasm, use the bugged Refreshment Cart & cancel the stun. You should win, assuming supports fire.

IMO most of the top teams can win against most anyone else - but maybe not every single team. If you’re a 550 person then odds are you can run and usually do run the same teams a lot - especially if your 550s are limited to a dozen-ish. Anyway it’s not like you’re using a lot of your roster in many cases.

Hawkeye isn’t much fun to use in pick 2 vs 4-5 jugg because he only does match dmg basically, so you do want someone o use with him who has other powers. You’ll win but it’ll take a while.

Idk if they’ll nerf him but if they do it’ll probably be a while.

@bluewolf said:

@Blackstone said:
@LuxAurae

Update: I went into PVP battle against Chasm, M'Baku, and 3a5 Namor... All 550. My own 550 HE was leading the charge with plenty of purple from supports...

My turn was skipped due to stun.
AI then made a match and my entire team went down like bowling balls in a mine field.

HE did not win.

Feel free to inform me what I need to make HE into the unstoppable force being claimed here.

If you’re facing Chasm, use the bugged Refreshment Cart & cancel the stun. You should win, assuming supports fire.

IMO most of the top teams can win against most anyone else - but maybe not every single team. If you’re a 550 person then odds are you can run and usually do run the same teams a lot - especially if your 550s are limited to a dozen-ish. Anyway it’s not like you’re using a lot of your roster in many cases.

Hawkeye isn’t much fun to use in pick 2 vs 4-5 jugg because he only does match dmg basically, so you do want someone o use with him who has other powers. You’ll win but it’ll take a while.

Idk if they’ll nerf him but if they do it’ll probably be a while.

Refreshment cart was on HE. Still got stunned.
To be clear: I can beat the team in question... I was just testing the "HE beats everyone but Galactus" claim.

I was demonstrating his limitations while waiting for someone to provide data to back up the claim instead of hyperbole.

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:
@LuxAurae

Update: I went into PVP battle against Chasm, M'Baku, and 3a5 Namor... All 550. My own 550 HE was leading the charge with plenty of purple from supports...

My turn was skipped due to stun.
AI then made a match and my entire team went down like bowling balls in a mine field.

HE did not win.

Feel free to inform me what I need to make HE into the unstoppable force being claimed here.

Or just bring your own Chasm. There's a guy in S2 who runs 450 Chasm/4* Hawkeye/loaner and beats every single thing I leave out, up to and including 3x 672.

That guy is pretty slow, but it does suck eating -70s to a 4*.

When he's boosted it's Hawkeye/4* May, usually. She boosts his match damage up to something crazy. The last time he was boosted I was running some team with over a million in HP and ate like -800 of losses to random Hawkeye teams.

So he's not a one man winfinite beating everything with no support as others have claimed. Thanks.

I don't see how that matters. The guy who beat 3x 672 over and over did it with Chasm and a 4* Hawkeye. If Hawkeye doesn't exist, he can't do that.