These characters need to be nerfed

KGB · 11 February 2026 17:10

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Blackstone I agree with some of what you said here, and I think we agree in general about turn0 wins (you didn't say it, but I don't think they should exist and I think you think that too).

The problem is that not all turn0 wins are equal. We've actually had them in PvP since 5* match damage became a thing -- seed teams! You can also climb till you only see 5-pointers, and get very low level player teams. So "punching down" turn0 wins have been a thing for a long time, and I think those are ok. When I'm punching down by hundreds of levels, those fights should be really fast and easy.

Supports (post-leapfrog) have enabled tons of teams that can reliably turn0 your peers, and I think those are more problematic, but I guess PvP has been getting faster anyway and maybe we'd have gotten there anyway. I don't like this, but I guess I can understand a case for it.

Hawkeye and May are something new though, because they enable "punching up" turn0 wins, and I just think that's something different entirely. Should a lower level player be able to beat any team of any level (except Galactus I guess!) without ever giving them a turn? I guess I don't understand the case for that one. Why is that good?

I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying it's how it is.

I don't think any match should ever end without each side being able to move.

I understand the argument for preventing lower level players from doing this to high level players who have invested more time into their roster...

I just think the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny because those high level players can retaliate quickly and earn points more quickly that anyone relying on HE can't compete with.

If turn zero wins are going to remain in the game, and the game is expected to grow with new players, there must be a turn zero option for those new players.

That option being slower and less reliable on defense meets that need while not truly competing with the rest of the zero turn meta.

I also don't understand the argument that brand new players need access to turn0 wins against any team of any level. It's a roster-building game, right? Why should you have an endgame roster that fast?

But the biggest problem here is that the Hawkeye teams aren't slow. We've always had slow infinite teams that take like an hour to win a fight. Those are fine because they're not practical. Hawkeye is WAY faster than that stuff.

Brand new players do not get access to turn 0 wins against teams of any level with Hawkeye. Without supports that grant starting AP he's not winning on turn 0 and to be more realistic you need other supports like Refreshment cart to guarantee that turn 0 win. So it's not Hawkeye on his own = turn 0 wins vs any team.

Also I can tell you he's VERY slow. Mine's a 3 star in the 330 range and without my L360 Shang with his crazy match damage boost as a team mate it would take a lifetime to beat a 672. What you are really saying is a 550 (or maybe 450?) Hawkeye can do it reasonably fast due to 5 star match damage. But a 550 Hawkeye is absolutely not an entry level character for new players (baring paying $20 for a 450 when they occasionally sell one), that's an end game roster and if an end game roster character is beating 672 that's not unreasonable.

KGB

Read_Only · 11 February 2026 17:17

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

entrailbucket · 11 February 2026 17:24

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Blackstone I agree with some of what you said here, and I think we agree in general about turn0 wins (you didn't say it, but I don't think they should exist and I think you think that too).

The problem is that not all turn0 wins are equal. We've actually had them in PvP since 5* match damage became a thing -- seed teams! You can also climb till you only see 5-pointers, and get very low level player teams. So "punching down" turn0 wins have been a thing for a long time, and I think those are ok. When I'm punching down by hundreds of levels, those fights should be really fast and easy.

Supports (post-leapfrog) have enabled tons of teams that can reliably turn0 your peers, and I think those are more problematic, but I guess PvP has been getting faster anyway and maybe we'd have gotten there anyway. I don't like this, but I guess I can understand a case for it.

Hawkeye and May are something new though, because they enable "punching up" turn0 wins, and I just think that's something different entirely. Should a lower level player be able to beat any team of any level (except Galactus I guess!) without ever giving them a turn? I guess I don't understand the case for that one. Why is that good?

I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying it's how it is.

I don't think any match should ever end without each side being able to move.

I understand the argument for preventing lower level players from doing this to high level players who have invested more time into their roster...

I just think the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny because those high level players can retaliate quickly and earn points more quickly that anyone relying on HE can't compete with.

If turn zero wins are going to remain in the game, and the game is expected to grow with new players, there must be a turn zero option for those new players.

That option being slower and less reliable on defense meets that need while not truly competing with the rest of the zero turn meta.

I also don't understand the argument that brand new players need access to turn0 wins against any team of any level. It's a roster-building game, right? Why should you have an endgame roster that fast?

But the biggest problem here is that the Hawkeye teams aren't slow. We've always had slow infinite teams that take like an hour to win a fight. Those are fine because they're not practical. Hawkeye is WAY faster than that stuff.

Brand new players do not get access to turn 0 wins against teams of any level with Hawkeye. Without supports that grant starting AP he's not winning on turn 0 and to be more realistic you need other supports like Refreshment cart to guarantee that turn 0 win. So it's not Hawkeye on his own = turn 0 wins vs any team.

Also I can tell you he's VERY slow. Mine's a 3 star in the 330 range and without my L360 Shang with his crazy match damage boost as a team mate it would take a lifetime to beat a 672. What you are really saying is a 550 (or maybe 450?) Hawkeye can do it reasonably fast due to 5 star match damage. But a 550 Hawkeye is absolutely not an entry level character for new players (baring paying $20 for a 450 when they occasionally sell one), that's an end game roster and if an end game roster character is beating 672 that's not unreasonable.

KGB

Ok, this is a thing that happens all the time here and it drives me insane.

The person I was responding to said that Hawkeye was important because he gave brand new players a way to punch up against anybody.

I replied, asking why that would be a good thing.

You replied to me, telling me that in fact, Hawkeye does not give new players a way to punch up against anybody.

See the problem here? Your issue is with that other guy!

entrailbucket · 11 February 2026 17:33

@Read_Only said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Exactly, these people have to exist or I'd have next to no one to easily beat in 5 seconds due to the lack of targets in this game. Let them have it. Otherwise I'd have to just keep on hitting the melts in my alliance family who cry when you give them a tap when they have 800 points and sitting unshielded for 2 days.

This is a fantastic reason to not be in an "alliance family"

Blackstone · 11 February 2026 19:17

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Blackstone I agree with some of what you said here, and I think we agree in general about turn0 wins (you didn't say it, but I don't think they should exist and I think you think that too).

The problem is that not all turn0 wins are equal. We've actually had them in PvP since 5* match damage became a thing -- seed teams! You can also climb till you only see 5-pointers, and get very low level player teams. So "punching down" turn0 wins have been a thing for a long time, and I think those are ok. When I'm punching down by hundreds of levels, those fights should be really fast and easy.

Supports (post-leapfrog) have enabled tons of teams that can reliably turn0 your peers, and I think those are more problematic, but I guess PvP has been getting faster anyway and maybe we'd have gotten there anyway. I don't like this, but I guess I can understand a case for it.

Hawkeye and May are something new though, because they enable "punching up" turn0 wins, and I just think that's something different entirely. Should a lower level player be able to beat any team of any level (except Galactus I guess!) without ever giving them a turn? I guess I don't understand the case for that one. Why is that good?

I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying it's how it is.

I don't think any match should ever end without each side being able to move.

I understand the argument for preventing lower level players from doing this to high level players who have invested more time into their roster...

I just think the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny because those high level players can retaliate quickly and earn points more quickly that anyone relying on HE can't compete with.

If turn zero wins are going to remain in the game, and the game is expected to grow with new players, there must be a turn zero option for those new players.

That option being slower and less reliable on defense meets that need while not truly competing with the rest of the zero turn meta.

I also don't understand the argument that brand new players need access to turn0 wins against any team of any level. It's a roster-building game, right? Why should you have an endgame roster that fast?

But the biggest problem here is that the Hawkeye teams aren't slow. We've always had slow infinite teams that take like an hour to win a fight. Those are fine because they're not practical. Hawkeye is WAY faster than that stuff.

Brand new players do not get access to turn 0 wins against teams of any level with Hawkeye. Without supports that grant starting AP he's not winning on turn 0 and to be more realistic you need other supports like Refreshment cart to guarantee that turn 0 win. So it's not Hawkeye on his own = turn 0 wins vs any team.

Also I can tell you he's VERY slow. Mine's a 3 star in the 330 range and without my L360 Shang with his crazy match damage boost as a team mate it would take a lifetime to beat a 672. What you are really saying is a 550 (or maybe 450?) Hawkeye can do it reasonably fast due to 5 star match damage. But a 550 Hawkeye is absolutely not an entry level character for new players (baring paying $20 for a 450 when they occasionally sell one), that's an end game roster and if an end game roster character is beating 672 that's not unreasonable.

KGB

Ok, this is a thing that happens all the time here and it drives me insane.

The person I was responding to said that Hawkeye was important because he gave brand new players a way to punch up against anybody.

I replied, asking why that would be a good thing.

You replied to me, telling me that in fact, Hawkeye does not give new players a way to punch up against anybody.

See the problem here? Your issue is with that other guy!

I never meant to imply that HE gave new players the ability to punch up against against anybody. If that's how my post was interpreted I apologize for not being more clear.

My intent was to say that HE helps to level the playing field by providing an option for zero turn winfinite to anyone that may not yet have the characters tier can do so more efficiently.

HE allows smaller rosters to chase progression rewards more reliably meaning that if you have him at a decent level you can pick through PVP teams to earn win based rewards. And yes that includes being able to punch up.

But it does not mean anyone can just have HE and beat any and every team they see regardless of that teams level.

At lower levels I imagine even a 3* strange would shut down ability spamming.

At higher levels Chasm means you don't get your turn zero.

4* juggs and M'Baku have enough damage resistance to make the time commitment ridiculously long to whittle down with anything but a very high ascended HE with support to increase damage.

I could continue but I think that clarifies my position.

In summary, HE gives anyone the opportunity to seek out teams they otherwise wouldn't be able to overcome, providing a pathway to making progress. If he could easily stomp anyone I can totally see where that would be something that needs to change. As he is, he simply gives a sneak peek at what other characters will do better when the roster gets filled out.

Blackstone · 11 February 2026 19:23

@bluewolf said:
IDK why we keep going in circles, but a game this old has to find a way to make new players be able to do well quickly and beat hard teams.

They onramp to high tier play is much shorter than before due to selling 1-5s or 5s in bundles etc so you can pretty easily get straight into 5* MMR within....whatever estimate I make will be too long. Months. Target someone, open and don't care about saving covers as much, you can champ some 5 pretty fast.

Once you're there you need a way to let those noobs win at least sometimes or they'll just get frustrated. PVP is a mess with people complaining constantly about the teams they run into once they're not in like 3*land.

The game turned into the reduced turn arms race, that genie is out of the bottle, making it slower just makes more people throw in the towel which some will argue is good but that's probably not desirable to the devs.

So yeah, you need to let newer players who want to spend a bit have a way to get competitive in the 5* MMR very quickly.

By the way, the real impediment to noobs winning more is supports, which the devs pulled back access to when Heroic bosses went away. Nothing new exists there except some shards in PVP and the fave ones in bosses, but you still need to pull tokens and luck out to have it at all.

Pretending that new player who buys 1-5 hawkeye will just autowin vs any team full of high level 5s is ignoring the need to start with purple.

The main goal of roster building now is to access more stuff in PVE (you need to roster about 383 characters to have ensured access to every node you see) and allow more reward churn to open more stuff because you have lots of champs vs wasting covers. If you're newer you're never, ever catching up to the level of people who have been here for even 6 years or half the game's life in terms of pure pull churn and how many ascended you have, etc.

I concur with this.

Especially the point you made about supports.
I've been playing since year one and I have everything available in the game... Except for one support.

I have never gotten even one leapfrog. If there was ever a store that offered it I must have missed it, but I've never gotten it from a pull so it remains the one thing I just might not ever see in my roster.

Anyone just starting out and wanting to build full supports would have a much harder time than building characters. And I don't think I ever gave it much thought until I read your comment.

entrailbucket · 11 February 2026 19:34

Again, none of this matters.

They're going to nerf Hawkeye eventually, because he's overpowered.

BCS most likely didn't intend to make him that strong. They almost certainly did not design him to give new players a leg up, or help people compete, or whatever. I guess it's possible that they purposely created a new problem because they knew they were leaving.

These kinds of arguments get dismissed pretty quickly when they reveal that, like, the guy who made Polaris just didn't look at the spreadsheet or whatever. Trying to parse out their motivations is a foolish exercise when they've proven over and over again that they don't know how to do this. These characters are accidents, that happen because they don't know how to make characters.

Nerfs generally don't matter, either. There's a big whinefest here and on Line or whatever for a few days, and then everybody adapts and forgets about them entirely. Are people still mad about Chasm? Gambit? Bishop? Heck, nobody even cares about Polaris and m'Thor anymore and that was just a few months ago!

LuxAurae · 11 February 2026 19:35

The issue with HE is that he makes roster building irrelevant for both the user as the the target.

Once you have gotten a HE and can turn 1 win against every team, why would you continue chasing anything else? You already win everything. And especially why would you spend?

It takes many more years to grow out of wins only playstyle and those players may just stay wins farmers anyway. It’s the same as Shang or Mthor or Polaris. Many of those players also just stayed with those characters long after relevance, because they were a good win guarantee.

As for the targets of a HE team. You built this huge roster over many years, wide and tall, and regardless of the boost list, there’s some sub year roster whipping you because they spent 20 bucks. And the only real solution offered (Galactus) is kept well out of reach by the devs. Makes people question why they spent all these resources and worse makes them question if they should continue spending money as there’s no way to keep a gap in PVP.

PVE is a different beast, of course, but there only a few hundred rosters in the game at most really trying to play for placement. Most are progression and HE guarantees progression as well.

In summary, HE -as a one person winfinite- is roster death. Reverting him to his original form more so you need to pair him with a cost reducer like 4BW like his original never-used-winfinite was, would be a step in the right direction.

Nothing wrong with winfinites. But they should be two or three person teams. Synergy. Not a man and his support.

These characters need to be nerfed

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