These characters need to be nerfed

@Grantosium said:
Yes, perfect balance is a practical impossibility.

Yes, it would take hundreds of nerfs to even come close to a balance where every character is kinda playable if they just happen to be your fave from the comics or movies.

Yes, there are a lot of important things that arguably could be dealt with first.

Yes, some deliberate unbalanced is desirable because of capitalism.

However, could we more or less eliminate defensive 1 turn clocks in relatively even match ups with just a couple of nerfs? I think, maybe yes, and it would be really nice if I didn't have to turn 1 win 90% of matches.

In fact, I can't remember the last time I had a turn 1 loss that didn't involve Iron May. Even pre nerf Thorlaris tended to be a 2 or 3 turn clock.

You're just talking about no supports.

@Borstock said:

@DAZ0273 said:
The fact that 3* May gets actually softcapped by players suggests that she really is a product of bad ascension design. She is waaaaay too powerful a tool for a max champ 4.

We're talking about a character with around 30k health. Is she really the problem? Or is the problem that Nova goes airborne turn 1 and you can't get her down? Or is the problem that Namor fires a crit turn 1 and M'Baku downs your whole team with match damage? Or is the problem that Juggernaut makes one match, Sam floods the board with strikes, and not even Electro can save you from that AoE?

I target May teams. I target 1a5HE teams.

I was talking characters with badly designed ascension characteristics. You shouldn't be able to build a team around a max 4* if you are a 5* player. She is the outlier in all your examples. I don't find her too much of an issue but I can see how others do.

Iron May shouldn’t have been released as is but she’s almost 2 years old now.

If they nerf her, a whole lot of people who can play SCL 10 now will either quit, or drop down or something, and get really mad at the game and post more 1* reviews.

Sometimes they screw up, but the fix is worse than the problem in this case, imo. OK fine, they definitely screwed up. Still.

If May is nerfed the second best choice is probably Emma so unless you have her ready, you’re losing out.

Anyway, let them nerf her and I’ll evaluate whether I want to spend more time playing. I’ve had plenty of fun by now so either way is fine.

@Borstock said:
I don't understand why easy to retal against teams are ever a problem.

I also don't understand why a self-infinite team is a problem when it takes forever for that to happen without a high synergy teammate. I can't just break out HE and the game ends in five seconds. But NamBaku absolutely can and does wipe my team regularly on turn 1 (or does enough damage that I might as well retreat). JuggSam can and does wipe my team turn 1 all the time. At least when people are running around using low health characters there's some quick and easy wins out there.

Sure, in the past I'd get beat by guys on weird infinite teams who took forever to win. I'd retal them 40 times before they could hit back once, and come out ahead on points. The "punch up" teams used to be slow, and relatively rare.

It's different when hundreds of players are using those teams. I ran 672s last event and took like 50 losses to Hawkeye or May + a 1*, and those guys were just as fast as me.

Your roster needs to matter. Boost weeks need to matter.

@bluewolf said:

@entrailbucket said:

@bluewolf said:
The last thing they should do is nerf heavily used characters. Especially since they won’t bother offering any compensation based on recent history.

You nerf characters when a new one come along that offers a similar or better power bump, if you're smart. Unless that character is utterly dominating high end pvp usage and making the game less fun/boring.

Also the game remains old as dirt and a newer player can pick up may and hawkeye and compete fairly well with the guys who have been playing for 12 years. You absolutely NEED some way for newer players who aren't going to drop thousands, necessarily, on the game to find a way to be able to beat those massive rosters or they'll just quit immediately or as soon as they realize there's no effective way to build a team that can take them on.

I don't buy this at all. You're saying new players will quit unless they can compete with 12-year veterans immediately? What kind of player starts a game like this and expects to win everything that fast?

If that's actually the case then they need to get rid of individual rosters. Just give every player every character at max level.

What is “immediately” and how long do you think a person should play before they can fight the ubiquitous Polaris BRB or Polaris Rocket teams? Or other metas? Just curious.

Obviously having everyone is still an advantage. Maybe 12 years is a permanent one but even like if you weren’t playing when some of the meta 5s were released or when community challenges happened you’re way behind those who were.

It’s the way of the game and if you play it for like a year you should be thinking you can take on some decently strong teams by then. It’ll take about that long to build up a 3-4 may and decent partners probably.

That's not what you said, and that's not what we're talking about here. Nobody is saying that new players shouldn't be able to win any fights. Nobody is saying that someone has to play for 12 years before they can do anything, because that would be stupid.

You say that obviously, having everyone is an advantage. It is not, and it has not been ever. I have everyone, and my roster is just as good as the rosters of players who only build the "meta" characters and ignore everyone else. If somebody maxed out Juggernaut/Sam or Nova/Hulk, they can beat every single thing I can throw at them, and usually do it as fast as I can retaliate.

That's just MPQ. It's always been that way, and at this point it's whatever. But it takes awhile to max those guys out. Like the number of functional peers I had used to be relatively low. Now it's not. If your argument is that new players will "immediately quit" if they can't be my peer, I don't buy that, and I don't think doing that creates a healthy metagame.

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
I don't understand why easy to retal against teams are ever a problem.

I also don't understand why a self-infinite team is a problem when it takes forever for that to happen without a high synergy teammate. I can't just break out HE and the game ends in five seconds. But NamBaku absolutely can and does wipe my team regularly on turn 1 (or does enough damage that I might as well retreat). JuggSam can and does wipe my team turn 1 all the time. At least when people are running around using low health characters there's some quick and easy wins out there.

Sure, in the past I'd get beat by guys on weird infinite teams who took forever to win. I'd retal them 40 times before they could hit back once, and come out ahead on points. The "punch up" teams used to be slow, and relatively rare.

It's different when hundreds of players are using those teams. I ran 672s last event and took like 50 losses to Hawkeye or May + a 1*, and those guys were just as fast as me.

Your roster needs to matter. Boost weeks need to matter.

I'm not having the same experience you're having. And boost weeks haven't mattered since supports were added to PvP. I think you're describing an ideal that hasnt existed in this game since well before the last dev team boosted HE.

If you're not having it now, you will be soon. And no, boost weeks mattered after supports! They didn't matter much until leapfrog went away, but after that they really did.

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
I don't understand why easy to retal against teams are ever a problem.

I also don't understand why a self-infinite team is a problem when it takes forever for that to happen without a high synergy teammate. I can't just break out HE and the game ends in five seconds. But NamBaku absolutely can and does wipe my team regularly on turn 1 (or does enough damage that I might as well retreat). JuggSam can and does wipe my team turn 1 all the time. At least when people are running around using low health characters there's some quick and easy wins out there.

Sure, in the past I'd get beat by guys on weird infinite teams who took forever to win. I'd retal them 40 times before they could hit back once, and come out ahead on points. The "punch up" teams used to be slow, and relatively rare.

It's different when hundreds of players are using those teams. I ran 672s last event and took like 50 losses to Hawkeye or May + a 1*, and those guys were just as fast as me.

Your roster needs to matter. Boost weeks need to matter.

I'm not having the same experience you're having. And boost weeks haven't mattered since supports were added to PvP. I think you're describing an ideal that hasnt existed in this game since well before the last dev team boosted HE.

If you're not having it now, you will be soon. And no, boost weeks mattered after supports! They didn't matter much until leapfrog went away, but after that they really did.

This was a period of the game's history during which Shang, mThor, May, Polaris, MBaku, Juggernaut, and Namor all existed. Boost weeks did not matter to me.

Saying they didn't matter to you does not mean that they didn't matter to anyone.

If you're not taking tons of losses to low level teams now then you're not, and maybe it's a slice/play time thing.

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
I don't understand why easy to retal against teams are ever a problem.

I also don't understand why a self-infinite team is a problem when it takes forever for that to happen without a high synergy teammate. I can't just break out HE and the game ends in five seconds. But NamBaku absolutely can and does wipe my team regularly on turn 1 (or does enough damage that I might as well retreat). JuggSam can and does wipe my team turn 1 all the time. At least when people are running around using low health characters there's some quick and easy wins out there.

Sure, in the past I'd get beat by guys on weird infinite teams who took forever to win. I'd retal them 40 times before they could hit back once, and come out ahead on points. The "punch up" teams used to be slow, and relatively rare.

It's different when hundreds of players are using those teams. I ran 672s last event and took like 50 losses to Hawkeye or May + a 1*, and those guys were just as fast as me.

Your roster needs to matter. Boost weeks need to matter.

I'm not having the same experience you're having. And boost weeks haven't mattered since supports were added to PvP. I think you're describing an ideal that hasnt existed in this game since well before the last dev team boosted HE.

If you're not having it now, you will be soon. And no, boost weeks mattered after supports! They didn't matter much until leapfrog went away, but after that they really did.

This was a period of the game's history during which Shang, mThor, May, Polaris, MBaku, Juggernaut, and Namor all existed. Boost weeks did not matter to me.

Saying they didn't matter to you does not mean that they didn't matter to anyone.

If you're not taking tons of losses to low level teams now then you're not, and maybe it's a slice/play time thing.

I'm not. I do see the odd May plus ridiculous 1* boosted character teams you spoke of, but those teams are only ever a problem because supports let the 672 one star spam fire a cheap power immediately (looking at you 1a5 Juggernaut and Spidey).

This, to me, is just the Bishop debate again. And, yes, they nerfed Bishop. But I thought that was dumb. And I think it will always be dumb to nerf a character that can be downed with one match at high levels. I don't even have to fire a power or bring anyone special. Target May, make one match, she's dead.

But now I have to deal with a 672 1a5 Juggernaut starting with 18 green AP.... That's fair? Sure.

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
I don't understand why easy to retal against teams are ever a problem.

I also don't understand why a self-infinite team is a problem when it takes forever for that to happen without a high synergy teammate. I can't just break out HE and the game ends in five seconds. But NamBaku absolutely can and does wipe my team regularly on turn 1 (or does enough damage that I might as well retreat). JuggSam can and does wipe my team turn 1 all the time. At least when people are running around using low health characters there's some quick and easy wins out there.

Sure, in the past I'd get beat by guys on weird infinite teams who took forever to win. I'd retal them 40 times before they could hit back once, and come out ahead on points. The "punch up" teams used to be slow, and relatively rare.

It's different when hundreds of players are using those teams. I ran 672s last event and took like 50 losses to Hawkeye or May + a 1*, and those guys were just as fast as me.

Your roster needs to matter. Boost weeks need to matter.

I'm not having the same experience you're having. And boost weeks haven't mattered since supports were added to PvP. I think you're describing an ideal that hasnt existed in this game since well before the last dev team boosted HE.

If you're not having it now, you will be soon. And no, boost weeks mattered after supports! They didn't matter much until leapfrog went away, but after that they really did.

This was a period of the game's history during which Shang, mThor, May, Polaris, MBaku, Juggernaut, and Namor all existed. Boost weeks did not matter to me.

Saying they didn't matter to you does not mean that they didn't matter to anyone.

If you're not taking tons of losses to low level teams now then you're not, and maybe it's a slice/play time thing.

I'm not. I do see the odd May plus ridiculous 1* boosted character teams you spoke of, but those teams are only ever a problem because supports let the 672 one star spam fire a cheap power immediately (looking at you 1a5 Juggernaut and Spidey).

This, to me, is just the Bishop debate again. And, yes, they nerfed Bishop. But I thought that was dumb. And I think it will always be dumb to nerf a character that can be downed with one match at high levels. I don't even have to fire a power or bring anyone special. Target May, make one match, she's dead.

But now I have to deal with a 672 1a5 Juggernaut starting with 18 green AP.... That's fair? Sure.

I'd be a lot more ok with her if she was changed so that killing her actually removed her entire buff, but it doesn't, and that's going to matter eventually.

@bluewolf said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LuxAurae said:
I think the larger issue at hand here is playstyle. Defenders are wins only players, within likely a growing roster arguing against veterans with very wide, very deep rosters they built over countless of years and likely are used to shielding and playing for placement. Yes, even the Clochards.

Seeing a 1star you can buy for 20$ skip the entire mid game to compete with years of grind is not only a feel bad, but also economic suicide. That said the entire game repeatedly tries to kill its economy over and over..

Maybe one day we can get back to a place where rarity and grind matters, but it won’t be until 6s become achievable.

Thank you

Actually my only hesitation with Hawkeye etc is the $20. Lots of players are spending the $20, and that should give them an advantage over somebody who spends nothing at all ever -- even if the player who spent nothing was super "smart" and hoarded for years or whatever.

As for May, it's really 6* that signed her death warrant. They need to fix her somehow before 6* start running around, because Galactus plus May will torch the metagame immediately.

We will find out soon enough as the only player with a legit Galactus finished him with the No Pants Bundle.

I'd run Galactus plus May with Omnipotence City on him. If the third is a Godlike his HP should be around a million, and he can still only take 40k damage per turn. So sure, Hawkeye can still go infinite and generate infinite AP, but all those crits after the first will be doing zero damage.

Is it good? I'm not sure. But it'll take you at least 25 turns to kill him, and if the enemy team is getting to move the board at least 25 times, a LOT of things can go wrong for you. He also heals, which can set you back even further!